Zoom is unrealistic

[L0uisc]

Disclaimer: I am running DCS2.5 because I don't have space on the computer for the update to 2.7 currently. I also don't have any paid addons. This is with the Su25T that is included.

If zoom is increased, both cockpit objects and terrain is enlarged. When zoom is decreased, both is getting smaller. This is not realistic, because I can't just lean closer in a real airplane to have 2x magnification of the ground 1 km away. It is also very difficult to keep eyes on target and keep flying straight if you have to decrease zoom of the outside if you want to see all your instruments at once.

I'd suggest you fix outside zoom at some level, or decouple it from cockpit zoom. I have no idea how easy it will be though. I fully understand there are projects with higher priority. But I think this should definitely become something on your todo list.

[Baldrick33]

I would have thought by definition zoom is unrealistic. It is an aid to help overcome limitations in a simulation given we don't have a perfect representation of what we see in RL.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Much like respawning or pausing, some things have to be sacrificed for the sake of fun factor. A sim like this is made for consumer enjoyment, not actual flight instruction. After all, there's no key for using the 'pilot relief tube.'  We're also not specifically modeling a certain degree of human vision acuity, either. There are those who are or can be correctable to 20/20, those who are slightly better than 20/20, and then actual mutants like me 20/10 or better. It'd be 'realistic' to model that, but an absolute mistake as well.

It is what it is because of the limitations of contemporary computer monitor and VR headset technology.

 

[Lurker]

41 minutes ago, L0uisc said:

Disclaimer: I am running DCS2.5 because I don't have space on the computer for the update to 2.7 currently.

Even if what you are asking for gets added to some degree, it will not be backwards compatible. In other words you will need to have the latest version of the game\sim to take advantage of these types of additions. 

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, L0uisc said:

Disclaimer: I am running DCS2.5 because I don't have space on the computer for the update to 2.7 currently. I also don't have any paid addons. This is with the Su25T that is included.

If zoom is increased, both cockpit objects and terrain is enlarged. When zoom is decreased, both is getting smaller. This is not realistic, because I can't just lean closer in a real airplane to have 2x magnification of the ground 1 km away. It is also very difficult to keep eyes on target and keep flying straight if you have to decrease zoom of the outside if you want to see all your instruments at once.

I'd suggest you fix outside zoom at some level, or decouple it from cockpit zoom. I have no idea how easy it will be though. I fully understand there are projects with higher priority. But I think this should definitely become something on your todo list.

I think you are confusing zoom with head movement in the cockpit.

You can lean in (bes with trackIR, but there also bindable keys for it), without the enviroment changing (much).

"Zoom" works like a tele lens in a camera. Distortions included. And yes, from a standpoint of realism it is completely bonkers.... (it is needed though, to adjust your fov to the size and sitting distance from your monitor). If you want ultimate realism, you set it once and then leave it alone.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Hiob

[Beirut]

21 minutes ago, Hiob said:

I think you are confusing zoom with head movement in the cockpit.

You can lean in (bes with trackIR, but there also bindable keys for it), without the enviroment changing (much).

"Zoom" works like a tele lens in a camera. Distortions included. And yes, from a standpoint of realism it is completely bonkers....

 

Voice Attack is great for this. I have different MFDs or gauges set up for views of differing lengths. For example, I'll say "panel left" and get a full screen left MFD for a few seconds. Not enough buttons on my HOTAS for all of this.

[L0uisc]

2 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Much like respawning or pausing, some things have to be sacrificed for the sake of fun factor. A sim like this is made for consumer enjoyment, not actual flight instruction. After all, there's no key for using the 'pilot relief tube.'  We're also not specifically modeling a certain degree of human vision acuity, either. There are those who are or can be correctable to 20/20, those who are slightly better than 20/20, and then actual mutants like me 20/10 or better. It'd be 'realistic' to model that, but an absolute mistake as well.

It is what it is because of the limitations of contemporary computer monitor and VR headset technology.

 

I mean, I get the limitations. That's why I think the best solution would be to split zoom and head from instruments distance. But I'd be happy to compromise for the sake of performance to simply drop dynamic zoom controls and only enable moving the head around. Having to zoom in to see targets on the ground and then losing all my cockpit items from the fov is what my issue is.

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Even if what you are asking for gets added to some degree, it will not be backwards compatible. In other words you will need to have the latest version of the game\sim to take advantage of these types of additions. 

I understand that. I found what filled up my drive and am installing 2.7 now. Even if I couldn't get it, I wanted to voice my concern.

[Abburo]

In some circumstances pilots are using binoculars. I think this can be easy  understood as a RL zoom which magnifies even your avionics...

@L0uiscyou are saying your computer cannot cope with the 2.7 version (because of reasons)... for same good reasons most of our computers cannot cope with the full complexity of graphics nowadays, so there are required such workarounds...  And to be more precise, to render up to a visible level some very distant objects, even using LODs, will simply kill our computers.... is just a compromise. In the same manner, you cannot compare let's say a 4K 24" monitor with a 4K 46" monitor... but we all still need to enjoy this game (oops is not a game but a sim ) 

And don't forget, we even have labels to leverage a bit visibility issue... there are the "neutral dots" which are working pretty ok ...

Edited December 21, 2021 by Abburo

[Baldrick33]

23 minutes ago, L0uisc said:

I mean, I get the limitations. That's why I think the best solution would be to split zoom and head from instruments distance. But I'd be happy to compromise for the sake of performance to simply drop dynamic zoom controls and only enable moving the head around. Having to zoom in to see targets on the ground and then losing all my cockpit items from the fov is what my issue is.

I believe you can do exactly that now. Just bind the camera movement controls and don't bind the zoom controls.

[L0uisc]

@Abburo my issue isn't so much realism as it is that I lose context if my cockpit zoom and outside zoom is connected to each other. I want to be able to focus in on my TV monitor without having super slow panning speeds or I want to be able to zoom in on terrain without it automatically making my cockpit unreadably small.

1 minute ago, Baldrick33 said:

I believe you can do exactly that now. Just bind the camera movement controls and don't bind the zoom controls.

I'll try that once my update is installed.

[Hiob]

18 minutes ago, L0uisc said:

@Abburo my issue isn't so much realism as it is that I lose context if my cockpit zoom and outside zoom is connected to each other. I want to be able to focus in on my TV monitor without having super slow panning speeds or I want to be able to zoom in on terrain without it automatically making my cockpit unreadably small.

I'll try that once my update is installed.

There is still something off with your understanding of zoom - or at least it seems so. Zooming "in" will magnify everything - so the dials in your cockpit are much easier to read, but you don't see much of them at once - so you need to move your head. Same for the enviroment. Zooming "out" will give you a more panoramic view (180° from wing to wing if you want to) - but everything is very cramped and gauges become unreadable - and it comes with distortions.

Moving your head inside the cockpit helps with reading gauges but will do almost nothing for ground spotting e.g.

[Northstar98]

On 12/21/2021 at 9:44 AM, L0uisc said:

If zoom is increased, both cockpit objects and terrain is enlarged. When zoom is decreased, both is getting smaller. This is not realistic, because I can't just lean closer in a real airplane to have 2x magnification of the ground 1 km away.

Yes, but my tiny 15.6" laptop screen means that at a comfortable viewing distance (approximately 60 cm away from screen) I only have a total FOV of ~30° horizontally and ~18° vertically, when IRL my area of focus is closer to 60° horizontally and 55° vertically; if I include peripheral vision, it becomes something like 120° horizontally and 135° vertically.

So I have 1 of 2 options:

• Set it so my in-game FOV is accurate, and have objects appear as a fraction of the size they should be for my viewing distance.
• Set it so that objects appear at the size they should appear for my viewing distance, and have my in-game FOV be a fraction of what it should be (in my case, 30° horizontally).

Neither of those are realistic, in reality objects would appear at the right size for my viewing distance and my FOV be would be accurate.

They say a picture speaks a 1000 words so hopefully this illustrates the problem, I'm going to use the F-5E-3's AN/ASG-13 optical sight, which has a reticle 50 miliradians in diameter, my viewing distance is approximately 60 cm away from my screen and the F-5E pilot sits (at a guess) 80 cm from where the reticle is projected:

 

FOV of 23° (reticle has the correct apparent size (50 miliradians) if I'm sat at roughly the distance from my screen as the pilot is sitting from the HUD reflector):

 

FOV of 30° (reticle has the correct apparent size (50 miliradians) for my viewing distance):

 

FOV of 60° (in-game FOV represents the area of focus for your average human - I would have to sit roughly 30 cm away from screen for the reticle to appear the size it should):

 

FOV of 120° (in-game FOV represents the area of peripheral vision for your average human - I would have to sit roughly 10 cm away from the screen for the reticle to appear the size it should):

 

Hopefully you can see the problem. And without having a bigger screen, or sitting uncomfortably close to it, there's nothing I can do about it.

So what I do is adjust my zoom as I see fit in different situations, if I'm solely focused on something specific, I'll zoom in to somewhere around the 30° mark, if I'm looking for something I'll go all the way out to 120° and then zoom in as I refine it, if I'm just flying around I'll usually have it set to roughly around 60°.

If you lock this out, it's not going to make it any more realistic, you're just trading one thing for another.

 

Also, seeing as everyone will have different screen sizes and/or different viewing distances, there is no way to either get the correct FOV and/or have objects be the correct apparent size without having the ability to zoom in and out.

Holding everything else the same, people with larger screens won't need to zoom in as much as I did to get the apparent size correct for their viewing distance, people with smaller screens will have to zoom in more. I'm sure that for the above images, different people will perceive each differently as being zoomed in too far, too little or about right.

On 12/21/2021 at 9:44 AM, L0uisc said:

It is also very difficult to keep eyes on target and keep flying straight if you have to decrease zoom of the outside if you want to see all your instruments at once.

And its especially difficult if you're like me, who not only has a minuscule screen size, but also has no head-tracking and uses mouse look, which due to my setup, means I usually have to take my hand off of the stick to use the mouse (though sometimes I'm able to use my chin, while I move the mouse).

*Note, I would use one of the ministick hats on my joystick, but I find the mouse more accurate and faster, it just means that in something called 'Digital Combat Simulator' I end up not doing much combat.

On 12/21/2021 at 9:44 AM, L0uisc said:

I'd suggest you fix outside zoom at some level, or decouple it from cockpit zoom. I have no idea how easy it will be though. I fully understand there are projects with higher priority. But I think this should definitely become something on your todo list.

This wouldn't work, because the zoom in DCS changes the FOV of the in-game camera, you won't be able to fix that at a value unless you know the screen size and the distance the user is sitting away from it, or the FOV of their VR headset.

And if the FOV of their screen and VR headset isn't the FOV they would have IRL, then you're going to have to compromise between being zoomed out enough so the FOV is large enough, or be zoomed in enough so objects are the correct apparent size.

And all of this is before we talk about visual acuity of the user, or the resolution of the display they're using.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Northstar98
spelling

[L0uisc]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

There is still something off with your understanding of zoom - or at least it seems so. Zooming "in" will magnify everything - so the dials in your cockpit are much easier to read, but you don't see much of them at once - so you need to move your head. Same for the enviroment. Zooming "out" will give you a more panoramic view (180° from wing to wing if you want to) - but everything is very cramped and gauges become unreadable - and it comes with distortions.

Moving your head inside the cockpit helps with reading gauges but will do almost nothing for ground spotting e.g.

Yes, I am aware. Maybe my use of the term "zoom" was wrong. Forget about that specific word. What my issue is, is that I can't see the ground at a decent size while also seeing all my important instruments. I asked for a feature where you can basically move around your head to make close items (~1 m distance) larger while not changing pan speed and zoom for objects further away as dramatically. I got my answer that it is already possible via head movement controls, of which I didn't know.

 

41 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Neither of those are realistic, in reality objects would appear at the right size for my viewing distance and my FOV be would be accurate.

Agreed. I think I phrased my suggestion badly. I would be happy with 2 independent control options, 1 for changing FOV and the other for changing eye position in cockpit. It seems like they are already implemented, as zoom (mouse wheel by default) for #1 and head movement controls for #2.

43 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

And its especially difficult if you're like me, who not only has a minuscule screen size, but also has no head-tracking and uses mouse look, which due to my setup, means I usually have to take my hand off of the stick to use the mouse (though sometimes I'm able to use my chin, while I move the mouse).

*Note, I would use one of the ministick hats on my joystick, but I find the mouse more accurate and faster, it just means that in something called 'Digital Combat Simulator' I end up not doing much combat.

This is exactly my setup as well. Logitech X3D Pro stick and nothing else.

[Abburo]

There still are some great workarounds which can make your flying experience even more natural. I would agree some of them are not indeed applicable to  everyone but at least I would like to bring them to your attention to have a look into:

1. Using VR headset (a high resolution one) - while using zoom you can focus only outside if you want... or you can focus on a specific bit for your cockpit. In VR the zoom function have two levels and will be active only as long as you are keeping the button pressed.

2. Exporting your gauges - Helios would be the best tool for this so you can have a full fledged cockpit clearly seen on a second monitor... including MFDs. There are also some Android/IOS apps for these, but Helios is the master of them all. Can be used even on a separate computer/laptop.

 

As said in the beginning, those  are kind of workarounds, and I do admit that not everything is perfect, as we are inside a simulation.... as good as it gets.

 

[L0uisc]

4 hours ago, Abburo said:

There still are some great workarounds which can make your flying experience even more natural. I would agree some of them are not indeed applicable to  everyone but at least I would like to bring them to your attention to have a look into:

1. Using VR headset (a high resolution one) - while using zoom you can focus only outside if you want... or you can focus on a specific bit for your cockpit. In VR the zoom function have two levels and will be active only as long as you are keeping the button pressed.

2. Exporting your gauges - Helios would be the best tool for this so you can have a full fledged cockpit clearly seen on a second monitor... including MFDs. There are also some Android/IOS apps for these, but Helios is the master of them all. Can be used even on a separate computer/laptop.

 

As said in the beginning, those  are kind of workarounds, and I do admit that not everything is perfect, as we are inside a simulation.... as good as it gets.

 

Agreed about room for improvement. However, I really don't have the budget for that. I just wanted a solution other than "throw a coffin full of money at it". And I got a few tips about things to try about which I didn't know before. I'll look at the prices of VR headsets as they continue to fall due to the magic of supply and demand and mass production.