Force Trim

[shrimpy_dikdik]

7 minutes ago, imacken said:

I've watched redkite's video more than once, but I still can't see why it helps with the centralised approach.  Sorry, not being negative, I just can't see how it benefits anyone using that method.  Happy to be shown the light!

Agree with you on this, I've asked many questions about it's worth and now tried it myself and still cannot see the point. The only very small benefit I've found so far is after trimming for take off and then into the transition resetting the trim puts it a little closer to the required trim. Personally I'd prefer to fly it using the stick and pedals and just force trim, maybe even a few times.

 

I cannot see how it helps with loss of control. If anything it could make it worse by throwing the aircraft wildy into a different situation. 

 

As others have said no one is forced to use it and if they have a benefit then great. 

[Hoirtel]

31 minutes ago, imacken said:

I've watched redkite's video more than once, but I still can't see why it helps with the centralised approach.  Sorry, not being negative, I just can't see how it benefits anyone using that method.  Happy to be shown the light!

For me I think the only time it may be useful is after landing and still on the ground I can confirm control position without using overlay. I would effectively be un-trimming and then probably re-trimming into a similar state, but it would give me confidence again without the controls overlay. Maybe once I am more experienced I wouldn't use it. I could look at the control stick too, but reset is a 100% back to known alignment. As for using it in flight... Nope. 

[imacken]

5 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

For me I think the only time it may be useful is after landing and still on the ground I can confirm control position without using overlay. I would effectively be un-trimming and then probably re-trimming into a similar state, but it would give me confidence again without the controls overlay. Maybe once I am more experienced I wouldn't use it. I could look at the control stick too, but reset is a 100% back to known alignment. As for using it in flight... Nope. 

Yep, I can see that it is useful on landing.

[cfrag]

5 hours ago, imacken said:

I just can't see how it benefits anyone using that method.  Happy to be shown the light!

I don't think it's as much a benefit as it is a preference, some kind of creature comfort thing. The Center Trim mode may suffice, but since it's not realistic, and people have grown accustomed to another non-realistic trim method, why not give them what they want? Their benefit: a bigger smile, that's all. And isn't that why we are here? In the end, more people enjoy a great product. No downsides.

[imacken]

I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be there, and it's great that people who want it have got it!  I just would like to know how people would use it with the centralising option. I'm curious.

[cfrag]

5 minutes ago, imacken said:

I just would like to know how people would use it with the centralising option. I'm curious.

I guess I'll be using it the same way that I'm using it in the Huey and other Helicopters - without thinking, when it feels right, and expecting a similar response. A habit more than anything else. Haven't yet had time to try it in the Apache, though.

Edited March 31, 2022 by cfrag

[Swift.]

Daily pressing of ED: To add an option where depress of the trim button sets the trim centre and freezes the user controls, and releasing the trim button reactivates the controls.
So the trim process is move to new position, press and hold the trim button, move stick to centre or 'neutral', release trim button. And experience the new trim position without the 'jump' we see with the instant mode and without the inability to regain control of the central mode.

[imacken]

What do you mean by 'inability to gain control of the central mode'?

Edited March 31, 2022 by imacken

[Swift.]

8 minutes ago, imacken said:

What do you mean by 'inability to gain control of the central mode'?

 

I mean how there is no way to forcefully regain control of the stick with the central trimmer mode. So if you are having trouble finding the centre of your controls and need to instantly make a manoeuvre, then you are screwed. With the way I just proposed, if you need instant access to the controls again, you just release the button. 

[Hoirtel]

Just now, Swift. said:

I mean how there is no way to forcefully regain control of the stick with the central trimmer mode. So if you are having trouble finding the centre of your controls and need to instantly make a manoeuvre, then you are screwed. With the way I just proposed, if you need instant access to the controls again, you just release the button. 

Trouble finding the center..... you don't have to hold it there. Even crossing the center works. I fail to see how a spring loaded stick would not find center

[Swift.]

5 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Trouble finding the center..... you don't have to hold it there. Even crossing the center works. I fail to see how a spring loaded stick would not find center

I take it you havent seen the countless clips of people careening into the ground because the controls have locked up. Those same people who now use the trimmer mode designed for FFB sticks just because the one designed for sprung sticks is so undesirable? 

[Hoirtel]

1 minute ago, Swift. said:

I take it you havent seen the countless clips of people careening into the ground because the controls have locked up. Those same people who now use the trimmer mode designed for FFB sticks just because the one designed for sprung sticks is so undesirable? 

I might have, however I myself spent a day or two crashing before I realised how the central trimmer works. Central and instant modes are both for spring sticks, however instant trim is FFB friendly as it can be used with a FFB stick. Central cannot. There is a third which is only for FFB sticks as it effectively disables the trim altogether and relies of the physical position of you hardware to do the trimming, you won't get odd trim related crashes with this mode, just no trim at all (on a spring stick).

[Swift.]

5 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I might have, however I myself spent a day or two crashing before I realised how the central trimmer works. Central and instant modes are both for spring sticks, however instant trim is FFB friendly as it can be used with a FFB stick. Central cannot. There is a third which is only for FFB sticks as it effectively disables the trim altogether and relies of the physical position of you hardware to do the trimming, you won't get odd trim related crashes with this mode, just no trim at all (on a spring stick).

As I said above, you've got two different methods for trimming, both have drawbacks. The way I suggested should aim to alleviate the drawbacks of both without introducing any additional negatives.

The technique I suggested could replicate the behaviour of the Instant mode if the user were to just tap the trim button and not hold it down. Similarly it can replicate the motion of the central mode by the user holding the button down until their stick is at the centre.

The best of both worlds, the smoothness of the central with the control of the instant.

[BIGNEWY]

if you are using a joystick with a spring you need to release as soon as you hit the trim, then you won't have any issues, if you hold to long after trimming you will have problems. Once you get used to it, it should come naturally. 

 

[imacken]

29 minutes ago, Swift. said:

I mean how there is no way to forcefully regain control of the stick with the central trimmer mode. So if you are having trouble finding the centre of your controls and need to instantly make a manoeuvre, then you are screwed. With the way I just proposed, if you need instant access to the controls again, you just release the button. 

Sorry, but I don't have the issue you describe. With the centralised option, it's easy to take control, you just trim and release then immediately allow your stick/pedal to recentre. then you have control. It takes a fraction of a second.  I don't see why you would be 'having trouble finding the centre'.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

So trim reset is available now. What do the green "+" symbol and green lines (rudder/ collective) mean?

[imacken]

1 minute ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

So trim reset is available now. What do the green "+" symbol and green lines (rudder/ collective) mean?

 

[Swift.]

33 minutes ago, imacken said:

Sorry, but I don't have the issue you describe. With the centralised option, it's easy to take control, you just trim and release then immediately allow your stick/pedal to recentre. then you have control. It takes a fraction of a second.  I don't see why you would be 'having trouble finding the centre'.

When you say 'release' are you describing the action of actually letting your control go and sticking your hands in the air, or just easing pressure? Because when you have a joystick that doesn't have a centre detent then simply having your hands on the controls is enough for it to 'not reach centre'. Obviously I could do my best rollercoaster impression and sling my hands to the heavens but then the stick flies through the centre and out the other side, creating an undesired wobble in flight and isnt exactly what I'd describe as 'controlled'.

The way I see it, there are some people who have no issue with the current techniques which is cool. But there are lots of people who do have issues, and the new trimmer option I proposed is a suitable solution to alleviate the problems people have with the other two options.

[BIGNEWY]

37 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

What do the green "+" symbol and green lines (rudder/ collective) mean?

red cross - trimmed position, white diamond - control position, green cross - SCAS actuator position, grey rectangles - SCAS authority

hope that helps

[LcSummers]

41 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

if you are using a joystick with a spring you need to release as soon as you hit the trim, then you won't have any issues, if you hold to long after trimming you will have problems. Once you get used to it, it should come naturally. 

 

Does this apply to both trim options?

centered and instant?

[Swift.]

5 minutes ago, Swift. said:

When you say 'release' are you describing the action of actually letting your control go and sticking your hands in the air, or just easing pressure? Because when you have a joystick that doesn't have a centre detent then simply having your hands on the controls is enough for it to 'not reach centre'. Obviously I could do my best rollercoaster impression and sling my hands to the heavens but then the stick flies through the centre and out the other side, creating an undesired wobble in flight and isnt exactly what I'd describe as 'controlled'.

The way I see it, there are some people who have no issue with the current techniques which is cool. But there are lots of people who do have issues, and the new trimmer option I proposed is a suitable solution to alleviate the problems people have with the other two options.

To add onto this, I was going to ask if anyone could think of a reason to not have this new trimmer option added. But then I realised that holding down the trimmer button is the SAS desaturate thingy that Bradmick described in the other thread. So I propose an additional binding that can be made for use with the central trimmer option, this binding will reactivate the controls regardless of their position. In effect achieving the same result as the first option I described, but without interfering with the SAS desaturate.

[BIGNEWY]

3 minutes ago, LcSummers said:

Does this apply to both trim options?

centered and instant?

No,

with instant you dont recenter, its instantly trimmed, so is best for FFB sticks

centered the trim is set and you then release the stick to centre the spring. This leaves your newly set trimmed position as the center essentially. 

[imacken]

12 minutes ago, Swift. said:

When you say 'release' are you describing the action of actually letting your control go and sticking your hands in the air, or just easing pressure? Because when you have a joystick that doesn't have a centre detent then simply having your hands on the controls is enough for it to 'not reach centre'. Obviously I could do my best rollercoaster impression and sling my hands to the heavens but then the stick flies through the centre and out the other side, creating an undesired wobble in flight and isnt exactly what I'd describe as 'controlled'.

The way I see it, there are some people who have no issue with the current techniques which is cool. But there are lots of people who do have issues, and the new trimmer option I proposed is a suitable solution to alleviate the problems people have with the other two options.

As I said, it is a fraction of a second to get the stick into a central position either by briefly letting go (without a rollercoaster performance) in a controlled manner, or simply moving into that position. Having a dead zone helps with the problem you are having your hands on the control.

Honestly, this is really not as hard as you are making out.  It becomes second nature after a while.

[LcSummers]

Thank you very much!

That helped me!

Btw, for me it s the best module. I ve been waiting so long.

I really enjoy the Apache, its a dream.

[Swift.]

1 minute ago, imacken said:

As I said, it is a fraction of a second to get the stick into a central position either by briefly letting go (without a rollercoaster performance) in a controlled manner, or simply moving into that position. Having a dead zone helps with the problem you are having your hands on the control.

Honestly, this is really not as hard as you are making out.  It becomes second nature after a while.

Its a shame that you cant set a deadzone for the controls reactivation separate to the deadzone for the controls itself, because I really really hate having deadzones on my controls, but it is as you said a necessity for the trim to work in anything approaching an acceptable manner.

Its a shame that we only have the two trim options currently present in the game and not an additional one that allows the benefit of the instant trim mode with none of the drawbacks in terms of jumpy flight. But it's true, a few people having no issue with the current setup is a perfectly valid reason to not add an additional superior option. Because as we know, the indifference of the few outweighs the needs of the many.