Is the Hind too Twitty on take offs and landings .?

[KoN]

Coming from the Apache back into the Hind on take off the hind fell over onto its side with a slight input from my throttle .

Is this beast far too Twitty considering its on a Tripod wheel layout and its weight ratio . 

Does the Hip suffer from same draw backs . ?

 

[Lurker]

34 minutes ago, KoN said:

Coming from the Apache back into the Hind on take off the hind fell over onto its side with a slight input from my throttle .

Is this beast far too Twitty considering its on a Tripod wheel layout and its weight ratio . 

Does the Hip suffer from same draw backs . ?

 

Hind's rotor is offset to the side, it also spins in the opposite direction of the Apache. The same takeoff technique is not going to work in these two very different helicopters. 

[KoN]

What im say is ,  is this Hind too Twitchy on take offs and landings . 

The slightest input and this thing falls over . And Does the Hip suffer same inputs .

[rogorogo]

vor einer Stunde schrieb KoN:

What im say is ,  is this Hind too Twitchy on take offs and landings . 

The slightest input and this thing falls over . And Does the Hip suffer same inputs .

it is not only too twitch on TO and LDG, in general the nose is too nervous and floaty, something which has been reported many times - and got deleted with cute persitence (if only if only persistence was a thing elsewhere) most of the time, or buried as "solved" with completely unrelated contributions having zero to do with the actual topics.

The wheels are not at all the physics grid handshake anchors (as with all DCS modules it seems), the AP dampener suite and manual trim keylogs seems to be fighting each other randomly, input values are stacked when applying trim, the AP channels randomly go haywire, the dampener thresholds can result in the dampener logic making you crash uncontrollably - and to each issue you will get something like "not true", "need tRRRRaKKK file", "adjust curves" from random directions.

And every patch something changes for the better for other things to revert randomly or reintroduce bugs which are clearly a completel lack of repo-merge-systemics.
Weight, mass, inertia seem to also randomly exist or not or get overriden or commented out by "something".
During any part of any envelope you can go from being in awe how great this module is fidelity-wise to almost vomit because you are suddenly bunnyhopping around in a Fortnite noclip-cam.

So just do not worry about it, there is nothing you can do - the socalled "testers" from the community (seemingly the only ones doing any actual testing) seem to be engineered to be extremely uncritical and the usual social media relevance dwellers (mostly, exceptions will always occur and be notable), some of them openly stating "I don't care.. I just wann shooooot things... uggah uggah" (or along those lines).
Thus further limiting what little effort there is left to actually even contribute any bug report anywhere.

Pair that with a rather "unique" product provider like Eagle, and nothing but a shrug is viable.

Unlike the Apache the Hind might end up in Harrier territory when it comes to "early access", quelle surprise.   

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by rogorogo

[aaronwhite]

I honestly haven't had any issues with it, with the right AP Channels on. If anything, I was surprised at the issues I was having with a smooth takeoff in the Apache, since I was thinking it was going to be a walk in the park by comparison to the Hind.

I've got a Thrustmaster Warthog, so there's a bit of play in the middle, but even with that factor, I've found that with enough practice I haven't had any issues with smooth takeoffs in the Hind once I get it trimmed out and ready to go.

[AeriaGloria]

14 hours ago, KoN said:

Coming from the Apache back into the Hind on take off the hind fell over onto its side with a slight input from my throttle .

Is this beast far too Twitty considering its on a Tripod wheel layout and its weight ratio . 

Does the Hip suffer from same draw backs . ?

 

I have absolutely NO IDEA what rogorogo is talking about other then the pitch oscillation thread bug being deleted. it seems they just ramble on about their own misgivings without helping you in the slightest 

 

i have no issues now but I did used to have issues and still sometimes do.

 

The problem is not the Hind it self, but compared to its size, it has the narrowest landing gear in DCS. So it tips over easily. There are a few ways to mitigate this 

1. Trim right and backward cyclic, wags take off video shows exactly what trim you need, but exoerimention and a hover check will help as it will change slightly with how loaded you are

2. Not only have roll autopilot on, but if you use hover hold, it will automatically try to roll you for zero ground movement. Might not stop a take off roll over per se, but helps over all takeoff stability, and making sure you’re stick doesn’t override the autopilot so much 

3. move collective slowly. 1 degree per second is the speed mentioned in the manual, and the engines take 8s to rev up. By being in good trim with right cyclic and backward cyclic input, AP Roll and hover hold on, and very slowly moving the collective up so you see any issues start with enough time to stop them, has helped me a lot to fix these issues

Since the landing gear is so narrow, the Hind so tall and narrow itself, I bet this is real life behavior and just easier to avoid for real life pilots that can feels things through their butt and inner ear 

Not sure what you mean by weight ratio, but the Hind doesn’t have the most power to kg. I wouldn’t call it underpowered, just more designed for fast forward flight the  hover

 

The Hip is largely more stable to take off and land for a couple real world reasons

1. The landing gear stance is wider

2. the rotor disk is larger, making it easier to balance everything 

3. no wings mean less power needed to hover

Edited March 22, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Gunnar81]

Try adding curves to your control axis' as well. Start around 8 and you should notice a relative slow down in the control inputs, makes it easier to control is those high torque situations. Play around with the curves and see what works for you!

[Gunnar81]

10 hours ago, rogorogo said:

it is not only too twitch on TO and LDG, in general the nose is too nervous and floaty, something which has been reported many times - and got deleted with cute persitence (if only if only persistence was a thing elsewhere) most of the time, or buried as "solved" with completely unrelated contributions having zero to do with the actual topics.

The wheels are not at all the physics grid handshake anchors (as with all DCS modules it seems), the AP dampener suite and manual trim keylogs seems to be fighting each other randomly, input values are stacked when applying trim, the AP channels randomly go haywire, the dampener thresholds can result in the dampener logic making you crash uncontrollably - and to each issue you will get something like "not true", "need tRRRRaKKK file", "adjust curves" from random directions.

And every patch something changes for the better for other things to revert randomly or reintroduce bugs which are clearly a completel lack of repo-merge-systemics.
Weight, mass, inertia seem to also randomly exist or not or get overriden or commented out by "something".
During any part of any envelope you can go from being in awe how great this module is fidelity-wise to almost vomit because you are suddenly bunnyhopping around in a Fortnite noclip-cam.

So just do not worry about it, there is nothing you can do - the socalled "testers" from the community (seemingly the only ones doing any actual testing) seem to be engineered to be extremely uncritical and the usual social media relevance dwellers (mostly, exceptions will always occur and be notable), some of them openly stating "I don't care.. I just wann shooooot things... uggah uggah" (or along those lines).
Thus further limiting what little effort there is left to actually even contribute any bug report anywhere.

Pair that with a rather "unique" product provider like Eagle, and nothing but a shrug is viable.

Unlike the Apache the Hind might end up in Harrier territory when it comes to "early access", quelle surprise.   

 

 

You sound like you are being too heavy handed on the controls to be honest, it took me a while to realize that's what my problem was before I learned to coax her gently around in the air. The hind is a big brute but it takes a gentle hand to fly it right, also liberal use of the trimmer is key to success. The other issue you might be having is the tears welled up in your eyes from your displeasure with ED & DCS causing you fly poorly and crash. Just sayin....

Edited March 22, 2022 by Gunnar81
add more

[Nealius]

Raise collective slower. I used to have problems with Hind takeoffs because I was yanking the collective like I would in the Huey. When I did things more slowly and deliberately the twitchiness disappeared. Same goes for the Apache.

[admiki]

What works for me and others that I have told, pull a bit of collective to get engines to spool up. Release parking brake. Do not try to get light on the wheels, most likely you need sideways correction, so it will try to tip on you. Once you start pulling collective do not stop until you are in the air. Any corrections can be done when there is nothing to tip you over.

There is no reason to just yank it, but IRL manual of 1°/sec is a bit slow for DCS, since we don't have all the senses to feel what she wants to do.

With some experience you'll get the feel of it.

One more thing, and this was reiterated by Apache: do not try to chase heading with pedals. Let it wobble around your general direction, you'll learn how to settle.

[Lurker]

The Hind does have some really bad outstanding issues though. The yaw AP channel is broken, or at least it's not working like it's supposed to (which is why no one seems to be using it) and it is extremely wobbly and unstable for such a big bird in almost any aerial maneuver. The tail-waning issue is also still present, and has never been explained by any of the developers or admins. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Lurker

[kotor633]

Hi@all,

Maybe this will help a little more with the discussion here:

Also a very good tutorial, for the Mi-8, but what applies to this module can be transferred almost 1:1 to the Mi-24:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcsJYdaffnVHiituz7dnogw

 

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

9 hours ago, Nealius said:

Raise collective slower. I used to have problems with Hind takeoffs because I was yanking the collective like I would in the Huey. When I did things more slowly and deliberately the twitchiness disappeared. Same goes for the Apache.

This. Both aircraft are very different, and switching from one module to another can mess with your muscle memory. If I haven't flown either the Mi-8 or -24 in a while, I also (almost) tip over on take-off. Just be more gentle and slow with the controls until you build up muscle memory again.
Go light on wheels, and see how the aircraft responds before you add more collective  

[Sobakopes]

You are taking off too quickly. You need to trim for vertical takeoff much more accurately slowly increasing collective to the point when hind barely stays on the ground. 

Eliminate any drift tendency on the ground before takeoff. 

You can fix twitchy rudder by simply using heading hold on hover if you feel the need. 

Hip is easier. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Sobakopes

[Sobakopes]

22.03.2022 в 10:30, Lurker сказал:

The Hind does have some really bad outstanding issues though. The yaw AP channel is broken, or at least it's not working like it's supposed to (which is why no one seems to be using it) and it is extremely wobbly and unstable for such a big bird in almost any aerial maneuver. The tail-waning issue is also still present, and has never been explained by any of the developers or admins. 

 

??? Yaw autopilot helps tremendously on hover. 

You use yaw ap only on hover(optional) or during cruise straight flight in conjunction with alt autopilot. You can have a coffee while the chopper kills miles. 

All other cases don't use yaw ap. 

[Sobakopes]

Do you want to see videos of take off and landing? 

[Lurker]

23 hours ago, Sobakopes said:

??? Yaw autopilot helps tremendously on hover. 

You use yaw ap only on hover(optional) or during cruise straight flight in conjunction with alt autopilot. You can have a coffee while the chopper kills miles. 

All other cases don't use yaw ap. 

That's not how it's used in the real Hind. Sorry, but you are wrong. The Hind if flown in real life with YAW AP on ALL THE TIME. 

[Sobakopes]

21 минуту назад, Lurker сказал:

That's not how it's used in the real Hind. Sorry, but you are wrong. The Hind if flown in real life with YAW AP on ALL THE TIME. 

Is there any proof? 

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, Sobakopes said:

Is there any proof? 

Ask any Hind pilot, or better yet read the manual. The pedals feature microswitches which temporarily disable Heading Hold, but otherwise the YAW AP channel is on on the real bird all the time. 

[Sobakopes]

44 минуты назад, Lurker сказал:

Ask any Hind pilot, or better yet read the manual. The pedals feature microswitches which temporarily disable Heading Hold, but otherwise the YAW AP channel is on on the real bird all the time. 

If it's true. I kind if don't see this work in a game because I don't have micro switches on pedals and yaw ap will interfere with aim big time. I will need to press pedals to turn off ap even if I don't need to. 

[agamemnon_b5]

On 3/24/2022 at 4:23 PM, Sobakopes said:

If it's true. I kind if don't see this work in a game because I don't have micro switches on pedals and yaw ap will interfere with aim big time. I will need to press pedals to turn off ap even if I don't need to. 

No, it would be easy to implement.  Movement of the pedals disables the autopilot and tells the bird to just keep itself stable while I turn.

Fundamentally, no different than holding down the trim button to turn the Black Sharks autopilot off to execute a turn.

It's actually partially implemented now: in the Hind, lead into a turn with the pedals.  The issue is the AP goes haywire when you let go of the pedals, regardless of how slowly you do it.

Edited March 29, 2022 by agamemnon_b5

[AeriaGloria]

On 3/29/2022 at 6:17 AM, agamemnon_b5 said:

No, it would be easy to implement.  Movement of the pedals disables the autopilot and tells the bird to just keep itself stable while I turn.

Fundamentally, no different than holding down the trim button to turn the Black Sharks autopilot off to execute a turn.

It's actually partially implemented now: in the Hind, lead into a turn with the pedals.  The issue is the AP goes haywire when you let go of the pedals, regardless of how slowly you do it.

 

Yeah but for me I don’t like that becuase I don’t want to have to fly uncoordinated using more pedal in a turn then I am supposed to use, manual and FAA helicopter handbook is clear about coordination. I want to turn like a helicopter is supposed to turn. If I had to choose I would rather have no Yaw AP (differing from IRL procedure where yaw AP is always on for sake of stability) then to over skid my turns with nose unnaturally inside the turn (differing from Irl flying technique by using too much pedal). 
 

I use a joystick gremlin profile so yaw AP is turned off when pedals are close to center, and turned back on when only dampening is available, and I can just turn it back on if I need the heading hold. But if that’s wasn’t available, I would rather deal with less yaw stability then having to turn weird 

Edited March 30, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Sobakopes]

18 часов назад, agamemnon_b5 сказал:

No, it would be easy to implement.  Movement of the pedals disables the autopilot and tells the bird to just keep itself stable while I turn.

Fundamentally, no different than holding down the trim button to turn the Black Sharks autopilot off to execute a turn.

It's actually partially implemented now: in the Hind, lead into a turn with the pedals.  The issue is the AP goes haywire when you let go of the pedals, regardless of how slowly you do it.

 

Gamer pedals have a small dead zone usually. This kills the idea. 

Irl spring less pedals with micro switches are another animal altogether. 

[agamemnon_b5]

17 hours ago, Sobakopes said:

Gamer pedals have a small dead zone usually. This kills the idea. 

No it wouldn’t.  Again, we have it already in the Hind.  Regardless of your pedal’s dead zone, the autopilot won’t do anything until movement in the pedals is detected.  Dead zone is irrelevant.

[agamemnon_b5]

On 3/29/2022 at 6:16 PM, AeriaGloria said:

Yeah but for me I don’t like that becuase I don’t want to have to fly uncoordinated using more pedal in a turn then I am supposed to use,

You wouldn’t have to if the systems on the Hind were functional.  Pedal input disables the hold mode and just tells the aircraft “just keep me stable”.  You would still be centering the ball yourself, I think.

 

it’s not like the FPS on the Blackhawk that coordinates turns for you.