The F-35 Thread

[Heli]

 

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu has announced plans by his country to purchase four more F-35 fighter jets and an additional five helicopters from the US. “It is planned that Turkey will buy 100 F-35 warplanes in the project. We previously ordered two in this framework. We have now decided to order four more,” Davutoglu said on Wednesday following a meeting of Turkey’s Under-secretariat for Defense Industries concerning defense purchases.

The Turkish premier also said five more CH-47F Chinook heavy transport helicopters will be purchased from the US, increasing the total number of CH-47F helicopters ordered so far by Turkey to 19.

 

http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php/archive-world-worldwide-news-air-force-aviation-aerospace-air-military-defence-industry/global-news-2015/january-2015-air-force-military-aviation-defence-industry-news/1408-turkey-plans-to-purchase-four-more-f-35-jet-fighters-and-five-ch-47f-transport-helicopters.html

 

 

[rcjonessnp175]

CAS can be done with most anything, from a drone to a B-52, depends on the type and situation... I would think most CAS means there are good guys near by telling you if they are shooting at a guy with a broom or gun...

 

I can say with my 17 years of service that you cannot just use any platform for cas. F35 is impressive but I'll keep apaches and warthogs thanks for my Oda's cas platforms.

[NineLine]

I can say with my 17 years of service that you cannot just use any platform for cas. F35 is impressive but I'll keep apaches and warthogs thanks for my Oda's cas platforms.

 

Dunno about your service, but they do use many different types of assets for CAS.... I am sure they will happily use the F-35 in a CAS role under the right conditions....

[rcjonessnp175]

I'll speak from a special operations view point, hard to see that f35 loitering over head ready to apply immediate guns on tgt as we infiltrate and ex filtrate said area. As a anti terrorism ground game we currently employ our current cas platforms are perfect. Heck F18's couldn't hang and execute the cas we required hence the reason we use A10c and Apaches along with specter.

Thing is with weapons they all have their place, f35 will have its place, cas is not its place. That's the ground truth. Things are fluid and dependent upon the five 5 w's

[NineLine]

Thing is with weapons they all have their place, f35 will have its place, cas is not its place. That's the ground truth.

 

I disagree, but time will tell I suppose... Strap a precision guided weapon on and many things become capable of CAS, again... in the right situation.

[PFunk1606688187]

Like that B-2 that schwacked friendlies with a PGM? Lovely CAS platform that.

 

Of course they use PGMs in CAS all the time. My thought is are they going to start using PGMs inappropriately in a situation that calls for down and dirty CAS simply because they no longer have the latter option?

 

EDIT. I meant to type B-1.

Edited January 9, 2015 by P*Funk

[FoxHoundELite]

just throw it here

 

http://vimeo.com/lmaeronautics/review/115310578/2b741543ab

[Tirak]

I'll speak from a special operations view point, hard to see that f35 loitering over head ready to apply immediate guns on tgt as we infiltrate and ex filtrate said area. As a anti terrorism ground game we currently employ our current cas platforms are perfect. Heck F18's couldn't hang and execute the cas we required hence the reason we use A10c and Apaches along with specter.

Thing is with weapons they all have their place, f35 will have its place, cas is not its place. That's the ground truth. Things are fluid and dependent upon the five 5 w's

 

The F-35 is a major step up from the F-18 in terms of loiter time. The Hornets were never designed to be aircraft that loitered over a zone for a while, they were meant for quick strike missions, no matter what Boeing tries to tell folks.

 

The F-35 would function on CAS the same way the F-16 does, it can't and in reality doesn't compete with the A-10, though to say that it can't fill the role of a Close Air Support craft is narrowing the definition of CAS to essentially be only "Shoots guns at target", while ignoring the host of other air to ground options. Close air support does not mean guns only, it means strikes near friendly positions. Precision guided munitions are getting better and better, and properly employed they can be devastating.

 

P*Funk, there have been more than one instance of friendlies being strafed by A-10s as well, CAS is only as good as the JTAC who guides them in.

[outlawal2]

Like that B-2 that schwacked friendlies with a PGM? Lovely CAS platform that.

 

Of course they use PGMs in CAS all the time. My thought is are they going to start using PGMs inappropriately in a situation that calls for down and dirty CAS simply because they no longer have the latter option?

 

EDIT. I meant to type B-1.

 

Yeah and that is a BS example as the reason for that incident is someone screwed up on the ground... That had NOTHING to do with the platform at all... Get your facts straight before you try to use an example to support your biases..

 

:doh:

[rcjonessnp175]

I very much know the full spectrum of Cas. Yes it's more than just guns, but you guys are assuming we use platforms that loiter above 25,000ft. We don't in the current situation on the ground. We fully use Close Air Support aka Close... It is what it is you guys can read all the tech stuff you want and make assumptions. What is in practical use right now and what works is not the standoff high altitude Ttp you are assuming.

I think f35 is great but as a leader on the ground I would always choose Apaches and warthogs over the shiny object. You guys are getting so defensive of a none proven airframe it's funny. Almost sounds like your high up Airforce brass looking for kick backs.

[Snoopy]

I very much know the full spectrum of Cas. Yes it's more than just guns, but you guys are assuming we use platforms that loiter above 25,000ft. We don't in the current situation on the ground. We fully use Close Air Support aka Close... It is what it is you guys can read all the tech stuff you want and make assumptions. What is in practical use right now and what works is not the standoff high altitude Ttp you are assuming.

I think f35 is great but as a leader on the ground I would always choose Apaches and warthogs over the shiny object. You guys are getting so defensive of a none proven airframe it's funny. Almost sounds like your high up Airforce brass looking for kick backs.

 

Best post yet!!!

[beaupower32]

...

Edited May 29, 2015 by beaupower32

[rcjonessnp175]

Yeah and that is a BS example as the reason for that incident is someone screwed up on the ground... That had NOTHING to do with the platform at all... Get your facts straight before you try to use an example to support your biases..

 

:doh:

 

Cas is never a single point of failure, we have many redundancies, but yes mistakes happened on both sides of that fence. It's a perfect AAR situation, many lessons learned. Rip Green Beret Brothers!

[NineLine]

I very much know the full spectrum of Cas. Yes it's more than just guns, but you guys are assuming we use platforms that loiter above 25,000ft. We don't in the current situation on the ground. We fully use Close Air Support aka Close... It is what it is you guys can read all the tech stuff you want and make assumptions. What is in practical use right now and what works is not the standoff high altitude Ttp you are assuming.

I think f35 is great but as a leader on the ground I would always choose Apaches and warthogs over the shiny object. You guys are getting so defensive of a none proven airframe it's funny. Almost sounds like your high up Airforce brass looking for kick backs.

 

Well the thread is about the F-35, so there is that. Now what you prefer might not always be available, so if you are in a bad spot, you need a CAS flight, and your Warthog or Apache isnt available, will you just say nevermind, we will figure it out alone... no of course not, that F-35 with precision weapons will do just fine.

 

Anyways this argument goes both ways, you dont know what the F-35 can bring to any role, including CAS, so it will just have to be seen.

 

Also, CAS, CLOSE Air Support doesnt mean the aircraft has to be close, it means they need to be able to drop their bags of goodies on bag guys in contact with good guys on the ground, least that is my understanding...

[Tirak]

I very much know the full spectrum of Cas. Yes it's more than just guns, but you guys are assuming we use platforms that loiter above 25,000ft. We don't in the current situation on the ground. We fully use Close Air Support aka Close... It is what it is you guys can read all the tech stuff you want and make assumptions. What is in practical use right now and what works is not the standoff high altitude Ttp you are assuming.

I think f35 is great but as a leader on the ground I would always choose Apaches and warthogs over the shiny object. You guys are getting so defensive of a none proven airframe it's funny. Almost sounds like your high up Airforce brass looking for kick backs.

 

 

You said that the F-35 would be incapable of CAS, and as your argument you indicated that in order to do CAS work it needed a gun like an AC-130, an Apache or an A-10. The US military uses a very wide range of aircraft to perform CAS work, which you are no doubt well aware of. If you mean to say that the F-35 will be incapable of providing the same sort of gun run capability as those platforms, you are indeed correct. Helicopters enjoy a far more static platform with which to engage in such operations and will be able to do pinpoint work that no fast mover can duplicate. The AC-130 is enjoying success unique to this style of operation thanks to having no threat to it. And the A-10, while hopelessly outclassed in a conventional war is a near perfect fit for the recent conflicts, and no other aircraft can match it's massive cannon. However, the F-35 will be just as capable of performing CAS works as other current generation aircraft such as the F-15E and the F-16.

 

Would you prefer to have an aircraft like the A-10 over a faster multirole like the F-16, F-15E or F-35? Sure, I would too. However to make the claim that the F-35 can't engage in the same close in friendly support that other 4th generation aircraft can, is flat out wrong.

[rcjonessnp175]

All I'm saying is the f35 will not be able to replace what the A10c brings to the table as a true dedicated Cas platform. I can't speak from a conventional Army view point as I'm not in the conventional Army. So my view point is very much special Operations slewed and as I stated above those platforms have Proven to work best for us. Like I said f35 is an amazing package but it will have its specific roles which we don't know exactly what those are as it's not combat Proven like our current Platforms.

I'll leave it at that. War is ever changing and be interesting how this new tech is incorporated into our ranks

[Snoopy]

Until the F-35 deploys and engages in combat no one knows how her FMC rate will hold up at a deployed location with limited support.

 

Those that need a more detailed understanding of CAS need to read Joint Publication 3-09.3 "Close Air Support". Good read and only 275 pages.

[Tirak]

All I'm saying is the f35 will not be able to replace what the A10c brings to the table as a true dedicated Cas platform. I can't speak from a conventional Army view point as I'm not in the conventional Army. So my view point is very much special Operations slewed and as I stated above those platforms have Proven to work best for us. Like I said f35 is an amazing package but it will have its specific roles which we don't know exactly what those are as it's not combat Proven like our current Platforms.

I'll leave it at that. War is ever changing and be interesting how this new tech is incorporated into our ranks

 

Nothing ever can replace the A-10, the circumstances that led to its creation simply cannot be duplicated within the foreseeable future. As a mix of heavily armed, armored attack platforms, it is nearly without peer in the current conflict. Whenever the military or Lockheed talks about the F-35 taking over for the A-10, they're talking out their collective ass, and any reasonable proponent of the F-35 has to understand that as well.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread would ever say otherwise either, but the F-35 will be capable of CAS work, and its effectiveness will match and very likely exceed that of the F-16, and that is the real platform you have to compare it to. If you want to stretch, you can start comparing it to the F-15, but when looking towards the future and asking yourself what is the F-35 going to do and going to excel at, simply put it in the role of the Viper and you'll have a very good idea of what it will be taking on.

[outlawal2]

Yeah anytime you replace one platform with another you have instances of comparing apples to oranges and F-35 replacing the Warthog is definitely that kind of scenario.. I don't belive anyone here would say that the F-35 would beat the A-10 at the CAS role in most circumstances. Just not true...

 

HOWEVER

 

I also believe that in the majority of CAS uses the plane would be able to complete the role acceptably.. (And in those instances that are NOT acceptable, bring on the Apaches and call it good..)

 

One thing I also believe the F-35 would be able to do that the A-10 ABSOLUTELY CANNOT do is to provide any useful CAS in a contested air zone... We all know that if there are enemy fighters around, the A-10 has a life expectancy of about 4 seconds... The F-35 could not only survive in this situation, it is quite possibly the only current platform that could do so and excel at it..

 

Imagine a wing of F-35's with internal stores only so their stealth capabilities remain intact... They can support the troops all stealthed out and when the bad guys decide to check out what is happening they take those planes out as well...

 

Possibilities are pretty intriguing...

[Yurgon]

[...] the F-35 will be capable of CAS work, and its effectiveness will match and very likely exceed that of the F-16, and that is the real platform you have to compare it to.

 

That would be valid if the AF hadn't planned to get rid of the A-10 altogether.

 

If they kept the Hog, I don't think we'd see too many comparisons of the respective CAS capabilities. But things being how they are (errrr... were supposed to be, a while ago), if the F-35 is to take on the role of all the aircraft that are decommissioned because of it, people are practically forced to compare its CAS performance to that of the A-10.

 

Another point is that the F-35 is not yet ready. There was a well written article a while back (probably posted here in this thread, not sure though) from an A-10 pilot's perspective who said that if the A-10 is taken out of service before pilots transitioned to the F-35, most of their CAS training would more or less vanish and F-35 pilots would later have to learn all the hard lessons the Hog guys had already learned all over again.

[Basher54321]

Another point is that the F-35 is not yet ready. There was a well written article a while back (probably posted here in this thread, not sure though) from an A-10 pilot's perspective who said that if the A-10 is taken out of service before pilots transitioned to the F-35, most of their CAS training would more or less vanish and F-35 pilots would later have to learn all the hard lessons the Hog guys had already learned all over again.

 

Sorry what?

 

Before the A-10A hit IOC in the 70s it also wasn't ready (didn't even have Pave Penny) - a lot of the pilots brought CAS experience from the A-7D and A-37B - but they relearned how to do these missions on another platform - the world has never stopped because an airframe has been taken out of service.

In fact the A-10C is finally the most ready A-10 ever - because in airspace denied by MANPADs at least it has the option of sitting at 15,000ft if need be and drop JDAM (instead of 12,000ft with binoculars like they had to in 1991!)

 

Someone mention 25,000ft altitude? - well Su-25s were dropping unguided ordnance from 14Kft - 26Kft after the FIM-82 came into use over Astan in the 1980s - not by choice.

 

Against insurgencies the A-10 is a very good platform but somehow trying to argue that it cant be replaced needs far better arguments. Some JTACs think the A-10 is great yes - others say they don't give a toss as long as the ordnance goes where they want it.

 

There are examples of other jets performing show of force or firing canon or dropping bombs at low level and saving troops so this should be acknowledged.

 

Regardless of what A/C drops a JDAM they will sometimes malfunction and go on the wrong target - likewise if the guy in the jet (or the Drone operating team) gets eyes on the wrong target its going to be hit - if you want to prevent this don't go to war.............

[tflash]

I'm not sure the USAF really wants to use its high-prized F-35 jet to perform CAS. In low-intensity conflicts, other jets can do it and in a high-intensity conflict there are other priorities. My guess is the USAF will assign CAS to the remaining F-16's if it ever withdraws the Hog.

The Marines however do not have much options when they withdraw the harrier, but essentially the F-35 can do what the Harrier does, be it that it seems to me much to sophisticated to operate in harsh and forward deployed environments, but then again this is exactly what the Marines aim to do.

[PLP]

Sorry what?

 

Before the A-10A hit IOC in the 70s it also wasn't ready (didn't even have Pave Penny) - a lot of the pilots brought CAS experience from the A-7D and A-37B - but they relearned how to do these missions on another platform - the world has never stopped because an airframe has been taken out of service.

In fact the A-10C is finally the most ready A-10 ever - because in airspace denied by MANPADs at least it has the option of sitting at 15,000ft if need be and drop JDAM (instead of 12,000ft with binoculars like they had to in 1991!)

 

Someone mention 25,000ft altitude? - well Su-25s were dropping unguided ordnance from 14Kft - 26Kft after the FIM-82 came into use over Astan in the 1980s - not by choice.

 

Against insurgencies the A-10 is a very good platform but somehow trying to argue that it cant be replaced needs far better arguments. Some JTACs think the A-10 is great yes - others say they don't give a toss as long as the ordnance goes where they want it.

 

There are examples of other jets performing show of force or firing canon or dropping bombs at low level and saving troops so this should be acknowledged.

 

Regardless of what A/C drops a JDAM they will sometimes malfunction and go on the wrong target - likewise if the guy in the jet (or the Drone operating team) gets eyes on the wrong target its going to be hit - if you want to prevent this don't go to war.............

 

I think the point here is that if there is a 5-7 year gap between the airframes and the JSF will cost a lot per flight hour (so training will be expensive), CAS know-how might well get lost. There were some good articles in war is boring (I know some people hate that source around here, I find it great), one of which detailed how an old-school habit of hogs pilot to write down coordinates on a piece of paper saved a B-1 from dropping a JDAM on friendlies.

 

The other point which is valid IMHO is that a lot of the value of the hog is that pilots spend 90% of the time training for CAS, compared to multirole fighters who will spend much less time for that specific task. This creates a group of highly effective expert CAS pilots with the appropriate know-how, which again might very well disappear.

 

Also, as for contested airspace, the next US conflict will be either a nuclear armaggedon or an Iraq/A-stan style conflict imho.

[Basher54321]

I think the point here is that if there is a 5-7 year gap between the airframes and the JSF will cost a lot per flight hour (so training will be expensive), CAS know-how might well get lost. There were some good articles in war is boring (I know some people hate that source around here, I find it great), one of which detailed how an old-school habit of hogs pilot to write down coordinates on a piece of paper saved a B-1 from dropping a JDAM on friendlies.

 

A 5-7 year gap? is there a defined retirement date yet for the A-10s? - they are fighting in Iraq at the moment and the USAF F-35 is supposed to go IOC end of 2016.

 

Although the CPFH might be less comparing individual airframes you would also have to consider the offset of closing down multiple logistics chains and operating less overall airframes.

 

 

The other point which is valid IMHO is that a lot of the value of the hog is that pilots spend 90% of the time training for CAS, compared to multirole fighters who will spend much less time for that specific task. This creates a group of highly effective expert CAS pilots with the appropriate know-how, which again might very well disappear.

 

Why cant the USAF have dedicated CAS squadrons that do 90% CAS? Pretty much the only thing the Marines do is specialize in CAS using AV-8s and FA-18s.

 

 

 

Also, as for contested airspace, the next US conflict will be either a nuclear armaggedon or an Iraq/A-stan style conflict imho.

 

Not one for speculating on a future no one can guess I suppose.

[Stinkyaddy]

A 5-7 year gap? is there a defined retirement date yet for the A-10s? - they are fighting in Iraq at the moment and the USAF F-35 is supposed to go IOC end of 2016.

 

Although the CPFH might be less comparing individual airframes you would also have to consider the offset of closing down multiple logistics chains and operating less overall airframes.

 

 

 

 

Why cant the USAF have dedicated CAS squadrons that do 90% CAS? Pretty much the only thing the Marines do is specialize in CAS using AV-8s and FA-18s.

 

 

 

 

 

Not one for speculating on a future no one can guess I suppose.

 

The Marines and Navy don't spend 90% of their time on CAS. They learned their lesson in doing that before.