The F-35 Thread

[Pilotasso]

I'd question even the relevance of this for operationally meaningful insights into the F35's kinematic capabilities. BFM gunfight performance, I dare say, is not a particularly informative outcome in the current and emerging air warfare domain.

 

With 360 degree spherical missile cueing via EODAS coupled with ever more capable HOBS missiles (AIM9X, AIM120D, SACM) I strongly suspect all this obsessing over BFM capabilities misses the VASTLY more important fact that the F35's "playbook" is probably going to call for dealing with WVR engagements in a totally different way to any aircraft that came before it. It's like evaluating the combat effectiveness of a modern infantryman based on their ability in hand to hand combat... :wallbash:

 

you missed the point entirely.

 

A pilots testimony would infact help clear some of extrapolation made from the airshow videos alone. Is it a fat turkey or can it move about in the sky after all?

[Boagrius]

you missed the point entirely.

 

A pilots testimony would infact help clear some of extrapolation made from the airshow videos alone. Is it a fat turkey or can it move about in the sky after all?

 

No I get that, and I apologise if my post was a bit obtuse (long day at work). All I am pointing out is that an aircraft's ability to "move about in the sky" is not a constant across all flight regimes. I would argue that the F35's ability to "move about in the sky" during BVR jousts, or when performing grinder/zoom and boom type manoeuvres (with HOBS/over the shoulder shots) in the WVR domain is probably more operationally representative in the A2A realm, while demanding very different things from the aircraft.

 

It is certainly intuitive to use BFM as a proxy for an aircraft's overall aerodynamic ability, but I very much doubt it would tell the whole story in this case (and probably not a very operationally meaningful one).

 

Just my 2c.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Boagrius

[Mike5560]

A pilots testimony would infact help clear some of extrapolation made from the airshow videos alone. Is it a fat turkey or can it move about in the sky after all?

 

https://tacairnet.com/2016/03/01/f-35-can-dogfight-says-norwegian-test-pilot/

[Hummingbird]

You don't know if those tanks were full or empty' date=' if empty then they don't really weigh a lot, the F-35's is all internal.[/quote']

 

No I don't, but neither do I know wether the F-35 was full or half full or less.

 

That isn't the only thing going on in a turn, it's obvious that induced lift, and induced drag increase, but the question is whether that increase is enough to make the F-35's overall drag higher than the F-16's overall drag.

 

No such thing as induced lift, there's just lift and with lift comes drag and this is called "lift induced drag". Form & skin friction drag is expressed by the Cd0 or zero lift drag coefficient. (Cd0 + Cdi = Cd.)

 

In a turn, esp. a max performance one, lift induced drag (Cdi) is THE predominant form of drag. For example the Cd0 of a modern fighter aircraft is usually around the area of 0.03 - 0.04, where'as the Cdi in a turn will be in the area of 0.3.

 

Hence why the aircraft which needs to pull the least AoA/CL to achieve the necessary L/W ratio has a clear advantage in any form of sustained turn fight.

[Pilotasso]

https://tacairnet.com/2016/03/01/f-35-can-dogfight-says-norwegian-test-pilot/

 

Great reading there thx.

 

there were a few things I noticed. It seems some systems, namely the 360 sensor arrays are not yet operational or not integrated, because the pilot is supposed to be able to see targets thru the cockpit. he was instead trying to acquire it visually the old fashioned way and came across the canopies restricted view angle.

[Tirak]

Great reading there thx.

 

there were a few things I noticed. It seems some systems, namely the 360 sensor arrays are not yet operational or not integrated, because the pilot is supposed to be able to see targets thru the cockpit. he was instead trying to acquire it visually the old fashioned way and came across the canopies restricted view angle.

 

I'd choc that more up to the fact that the F-16 has an unobstructed bubble canopy. The view an F-16 has is simply unparalleled, even by the F-22 due to the F-22's HUD. I'm a staunch defender of the F-35, but even I grumble at the choice to give the F-35 a canopy bow up front.

[Shadow_1stVFW]

I'd choc that more up to the fact that the F-16 has an unobstructed bubble canopy. The view an F-16 has is simply unparalleled, even by the F-22 due to the F-22's HUD. I'm a staunch defender of the F-35, but even I grumble at the choice to give the F-35 a canopy bow up front.

 

I see your point, but then with the block 40 came the War HUD. Because, you know, that bubble canopy was too good.

 

[probad]

I see your point, but then with the block 40 came the War HUD. Because, you know, that bubble canopy was too good.

can you elaborate on this please?

[Shadow_1stVFW]

I'd choc that more up to the fact that the F-16 has an unobstructed bubble canopy. The view an F-16 has is simply unparalleled, even by the F-22 due to the F-22's HUD. I'm a staunch defender of the F-35, but even I grumble at the choice to give the F-35 a canopy bow up front.

 

can you elaborate on this please?

 

It was kind of tongue in cheek. I just never understood why, with such a beautiful one piece canopy, we chose to install the HUD pictured here, which is on the block 40. Kills forward visibility.

[mvsgas]

It was kind of tongue in cheek. I just never understood why, with such a beautiful one piece canopy, we chose to install the HUD pictured here, which is on the block 40. Kills forward visibility.

 

It does not kill forward visibility at all. The ASHM (on the D models with it) does get in the way when looking forward but then it give you a HUD view and on aircraft with the AAQ-13 it does give you a FLIR view.

Edited June 18, 2016 by mvsgas

[Arguss]

I'd choc that more up to the fact that the F-16 has an unobstructed bubble canopy. The view an F-16 has is simply unparalleled, even by the F-22 due to the F-22's HUD. I'm a staunch defender of the F-35, but even I grumble at the choice to give the F-35 a canopy bow up front.

 

Went to a presentation by an F-35 pilot a few weeks ago who said the bow is a compromise for the B model, if I remember correctly. In the B (and maybe C) model, during an emergency, they don't want to wait for the canopy to jettison, so they go through it instead. Therefore the bow is required because the canopy is weaker structurally. In the A model they still kept the canopy but with a jettison system.

[gavagai]

It does not kill forward visibility at all. The ASHM (on the D models with it) does get in the way when looking forward but then it give you a HUD view and on aircraft with the AAQ-13 it does give you a FLIR view.

 

I was told by a Viper pilot that they almost all hate it.:doh:

[mvsgas]

I was told by a Viper pilot that they almost all hate it.:doh:

 

The ASHM? They do until they are instructors flying at 200 feet at night with a new guy in the front seat, then they love it.

[Tirak]

The ASHM? They do until they are instructors flying at 200 feet at night with a new guy in the front seat, then they love it.

 

So the pilots having to fight with it hate it, and the GIB likes it because it lets him see what's going on, not exactly what I'd call a ringing endorsement. The Air Force disagrees with you as well, seeing as how they got rid of as much of the framing in the 50/52s as they could.

[mvsgas]

So the pilots having to fight with it hate it, and the GIB likes it because it lets him see what's going on, not exactly what I'd call a ringing endorsement. The Air Force disagrees with you as well, seeing as how they got rid of as much of the framing in the 50/52s as they could.

 

What are we talking about, the block 40 stile HUD or the ASHM?

- If your talking about the HUD, it does not block the view. The main reason for the large HUD on block 40/42 (WAR HUD) was that at the time it was the best way to provide a large view for the FLIR. It was stopped on USAF F-16 block 50/52 (Now using the WAC HUD) and also USAF F-16 no longer carry the AAQ-13, only F-15E do (which have a wide HUD as well). Last I saw the AAQ-13 on a F-16 was in Osan AB back in 2000. Do you see the correlation between USAF F-16 stop using the AAQ-13 and block 50/52 no longer using the WAR HUD?

But the some ROKAF F-16 block 52 still use the WAR HUD, Newly made Turkish block 50+, Singapore, also use the WAR HUD.

 

If you are talking about the ASHM, I was not talking about the GIB, a was talking about instructor pilots having to put their life on the hands of a new pilot, flying for the first time at night on TFR with the AAQ-13. Now, as I mention the USAF no long does this, but when I stared back in 1997, my squadron was the 310FS, which did all the night training specially the AN/AAQ-13/14. So I can tell you that all the IP I talk to every night did appreciate the ASHM very much.

Furthermore, the ASHM it is still used in block 40 to 52+ in F-16I, ROKAF F-16, TuRAF, Singapore AF, HAF etc.

 

Back on what I think is the current topic...maybe

 

Does the F-16 has a better view than many other aircraft out of the cockpit? Every time I try to in flight refuel or find a target in BMS/DCS I think about that and believe the F-16 has one of the best view I have personally seen. In real life is even better. I think the frame on the F-35 and other aircraft like the Mitsubishi F-2 do affect what could be a great view.

 

Hope in the future we get to see the AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System (DAS) in the F-35 working properly, I think it will be fantastic and to me reminiscing of the Macross anime, particular to the VF-19 in how the pilots could see all around him. :D

Edited June 21, 2016 by mvsgas

[Rangi]

Some good news (for a change) about the recent deployment test at mountain home

 

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/air-force/2016/06/21/f35-software-mountain-home-deployment/86191386/

[Tirak]

Some good news (for a change) about the recent deployment test at mountain home

 

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/air-force/2016/06/21/f35-software-mountain-home-deployment/86191386/

 

The software guys at Lockheed be like;

 

[NineLine]

https://theaviationist.com/2016/06/27/f-15e-strike-eagles-unable-to-shoot-down-the-f-35s-in-8-dogfights-during-simulated-deployment/

 

[HiJack]

https://theaviationist.com/2016/06/27/f-15e-strike-eagles-unable-to-shoot-down-the-f-35s-in-8-dogfights-during-simulated-deployment/

 

:thumbup: need 7 more to go live :)

[HiJack]

On the way to airshows in UK?

[gavagai]

SEAD? Can it carry the AGM-88 yet?

[mvsgas]

SEAD? Can it carry the AGM-88 yet?

 

You don't need AGM-88 for SEAD if stealth can get you close enough to use other weapons like JDAMS, LGM, WCMD, etc.

[Darkbrotherhood7]

As far I know, the AGM-88 will be implemented in the future(F-35 Block 5, probably 2022).

[Emu]

As far I know, the AGM-88 will be implemented in the future(F-35 Block 5, probably 2022).

Will it be AARGM-ER or T-3 by then though?

[twobells]

An RAF F35B and two USMC F5B's along with two F-35A versions, will display at the annual Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) show & at Farnborough Air Show 2016. They arrived from Elgin about an hour ago I believe, this is the very first time the F35B has been seen outside the continental United States and really should be something special to witness.

 

However, the bad news is the massive reduction in high energy manoeuvres allowed at the shows following the Shoreham accident and although the F35B's will carry out vertical landings they will not park up, instead return to Fairford.

 

I am so worried about what these new, knee-jerk conditions will mean for UK aviation business as plod have also closed the roads around the shows making the impact even worse, so expect long delays.

 

Also, the Red Arrows, the best display team in the world, will NOT be able to carry out their exceptional displays at all, instead we will witness a declawed version, the fly-past.

 

edit. Just in 35 seconds ago: http://breakingdefense.com/2016/06/f-35bs-landing-in-uk-today-hover-and-refueling-demos-on-for-riat-farnborough/

Edited June 29, 2016 by twobells