Trimming the Ka-50

[Ramstein]

Reticuli,

You documents show Saitek X52. But, what about the Saitek X52 Pro stick, do these scripts work with those? Also, I do not use the twist rudder, I have pedals...

 

also what about this Blackshark 1.dat file ? The latest newest profiles (for the latest Saitek SST software and drivers) for a couple years now are *.pro profile names and extensions.

 

Thanx..

 

also, input from others that have tried this will of help to see how well the bump is removed or softened.

 

:joystick:

Edited January 1, 2009 by Ramstein

[Reticuli]

The script will work with anything. GlovePIE doesn't care what your stick is, except that you need to change the axis names or get them to match up in PPjoy. That utility can be used with any, even the most complex, HOTAS, head mounted display (HMD), the Wii remote, VR gloves, TrackIR emulation, and lots of other stuff. One of the best tools around. I don't know about ch or tm scripts, but you could very easily adapt the concept of the script for stick-specific program schemes that you may already have available without needing GlovePIE. More simple than it looks, probably.

 

The Blackshark 1 dat is really not anything. I have only one key programmed: the rotary press (x52 mouse button 2) as shkval center since the original dat profiler and x52 (non-pro) doesn't allow that key to be recognized normally. So, yeah, I haven't actually programmed my x52 yet. I just threw it in there to be complete. I essentially have only one mode on my HOTAS and it's through the sim's key assignments...so it has nothing to do with the X52 mode rotary itself. Whatever you want the trim reset key to be on your stick, change joystick.button6 in GlovePIE to that. No biggy. Mod away!

 

Since you already have an x52 Pro, I recommend you download the big V10 profiles so that you can get GlovePIE, PPJoy, and more detailed instructions on getting exactly the same axis assignment as me. You also have to make sure you run GlovePIE and go through the Windows calibration for the stick so everything is properly recognized. Often it won't even show up otherwise. In your case, the rudder pedals would also need to be assigned in PPJoy instead of the twist. If I were you, I would just have them both in PPJoy assigned. Then in the script just + (add) that axis in the respective spots right next to the top rotary and twist that's already there so they can all work together. Just keep the X52 lock on when you're not using the twist. Having the rotary is immensely helpful for fine trimming or when heading hold is turned off.

 

Not sure if the X52 LUA in Blackshark will work for you. Try it and let me know what shows up in the sim under control options. I have the stick curves changed slightly, along with the key assignments. I find that necessary in X-Plane, as well. So in my opinion, the LUAs and script work together just right. Otherwise the capture rate and trim ranges will need tweaking to get my results. The end result of all this is something closer to X-Plane, EECH with my trim bands X52 dat, Gunship!, Longbow Anthology, and real FBW helos that use recentering joysticks. Rough, but it does the trick if you're gentle, but don't you have to be already?

 

Don't be afraid to email me if you have problems. My address is in the readme. If it's not working for you, I am certain your issues can be resolved. Everytime I think it can't be done, I find a way. So don't just install the stuff, run it, and if it doesn't work abandon it. I have the flu right now, so plenty of time available...plus it's a holiday. heh heh. God my head hurts!

Edited January 2, 2009 by Reticuli

[stevie52]

My flying was all over the place at start. I just needed time, patience and practise. Thats it.

 

I usually fly with bank, pitch and heading switched on when cruising. Once i hit combat or pre-combat stage i flip on the Flight directory switch.

 

Don't forget that in FD mode after you have trimmed, "retrim" the heading after you have turned. I mean, trim it out so you can fly stick centered. Then after you have turned: center the controls and hit the trim button. THen you are trimmed on that heading again. A tip stated a few times can be to hold the trim button when moving the stick around but I must say that this way can be irritating aswell if you release the trim before having your controls centered, causing that you'll oversteer and have to retrim again to get it steady.

 

IMHO you should just practise and keep practising. Keep the output of the stick on screen (shft enter i believe) and see what happends. Pay attention to it i really helps if you sit a few hours paying attention to flying.

 

stevie

[Reticuli]

Once you hit combat you flip on the flight director switch? From what, having the aircraft fly itself? What's the point of flying a "flight sim" if you're not actually flying the aircraft? I can understand if you're doing some things in the cockpit and turning the autopilot-proper (i.e. the aircraft completely flying itself to a destination) on for safety, but otherwise it seems to defeat the whole point.

 

And why would you want all that FD symbology in the HUD when you're in combat? The function of the FCS does not change when FD is on compared to any other state when autopilot-proper is off. Are you just always keeping the autopilot-proper on in course-track or heading-destination modes and your means of turning it off to take control is simply the FD button? I'm confused.

 

I still don't see why holding trim makes any difference at all (not talking about my script, by the way). Maybe it changes the tension when using forcefeedback so you can more easily move it? My x52 is not capable of FFB, so I have no idea what the benefits of holding trim might be. With a normal stick it makes zero difference, that I can tell, as it does not create a new virtual stick center until you release the button and the delay passes. What kind of different results are you getting by holding rather than just tapping? Do you use forcefeedback?

 

***

 

I should also add with the glovePIE stuff, when you do the Windows callibrations the stick needs to be centered completely when you hit a button to record the center. So with the current script, make sure you've held the assigned clear trim/trim preset button (6/pinkie for me) when doing that. Otherwise your centers are all screwed up. I should really include a script that is just for calibration purposes that you can switch from after you've done it, one with every axis and no dynamic trim updating of anything. Sorry.

 

Also, from time to time the virtual analog PPJoy controller might not be recognized by your system even after it's been set up when you first boot up. Simpling going into PPJoy, selecting that virtual controller, hitting Mapping, and then Next repeatedly until you can Finish will reinitialize the whole thing. Very easy fix. Since installing Blackshark, my eMagin native headtracker doesn't work even with just PPJoy, Flaming Cliffs won't start, and PPJoy is often not initializing on its own. Probably a Starforce thing. So this will solve one of the three, if you experience it.

[AlphaOneSix]

What kind of different results are you getting by holding rather than just tapping?

 

When you press the trim button, the input from the autopilot is returned to neutral. If you keep it held down, then the autopilot will not fight you to hold your heading, pitch, or bank. Letting go of the button is what tells the autopilot to start holding a new attitude.

[Reticuli]

Now I'm getting you. The problem I was having was the constant right bank, which I was confusing for AP wings-leveling. I found a way to get rid of that, but also see what it's like with just damping. Geez, what a pain it's been to actually see evidence of it. All that native instability getting in the way taking on the guise of the AP reorienting.

 

Flight Director is indeed wings leveling-free, but with a weak non-coordinating damping running independently on each axis...i.e. pitch won't help heading, heading won't help pitch, bank won't help...well, you get it. That constant pitch up and bank right is still there, but with a little tweaking the Shark's own instability out with GlovePIE the pure dampening effect is finally seen. And yaw damping IS on! Wow. It's just so weak that it was impossible to see without canceling out the instability first.

 

With Heading Hold on AND Flight Director BUT NOT Route Flying AND GlovePIE to slightly autotrim, you finally can see the yaw damp feature working. Turn Head Hold off, and it goes away. Turn Flight Director off BUT Head Hold on, and you end up with 20% authority slowly chasing the Head Hold diamond, visible or not.

 

Good lord, a complicated bunch of settings to choose the combination of. Now the question is, do I ever want manual trimming or not...heh heh.

[Stingray]

Wow. After reading how important trimming was, I was still refusing to do it, like, I would trim, but only every now and again. After taking a break from DCS:BS over the holidays, reading the manual a bit and reading the forums, I went and played for an hour yesterday and simply had a great break through. I turned all the AP modes off and no flight director, and finally got it in my mind to trim all the time, and guess what! I could actually fly the helo, control it, and put it where I want to without it shacking. I finally felt like I wasn't "fighting" the chopper.

 

Stingray

[GGTharos]

I turned all the AP modes off

 

You're doing it wrong ;)

Keep them on at all times.

[GGTharos]

Note the behavior of the nose:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG1E1lgTsLw

[ocram]

Note the behavior of the nose:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG1E1lgTsLw

 

Is the pulsing of the HUD real or is it an effect because of the filming with the camera?

 

 

BTW, what does he say before he starts the spinning?

[press]

Is the pulsing of the HUD real or is it an effect because of the filming with the camera?

 

Yes, it`s from the filming. The HUD projector has a refresh rate because it`s a cathode ray tube. It`s something like filming your old cathode ray tube monitor.

 

Speaking of trimming...why there wasn't included in the sound pack the sound of the trimmer?

[miguez]

Is the pulsing of the HUD real or is it an effect because of the filming with the camera?

 

I am not sure, but given my experience with airplane HUDs I'd say that's would be a feasible refresh rate. If that's true, then we're spoiled in the game :).

 

The HUDs I have flown had varying refresh rates, from very slow, like the Ka-50 in this video, to very fast, around 15-20 fps.

[miguez]

Note the behavior of the nose:

 

Hi GGTharos,

 

What in particular did you want us to look for? One thing I did notice is that my flying is not so bad :), What I mean is the heading control. When changing collective and direction, I can't be super smooth with the heading, she ends up wondering a bit away from where I'd like her to be. The helicopter in the video does the same exact thing, which I believe means we should be thanking the flight model guys at ED!

 

Best regards, and awesome video, thanks!

[press]

I am not sure, but given my experience with airplane HUDs I'd say that's would be a feasible refresh rate. If that's true, then we're spoiled in the game :).

 

The HUDs I have flown had varying refresh rates, from very slow, like the Ka-50 in this video, to very fast, around 15-20 fps.

 

Not quite spoiled. In reality you can`t see the refresh rate. Maybe you can see it in the corner of your eye when you`re looking left or right out of the window.

[GGTharos]

The Ka-50 HUD was upgraded with higher FPS IIRC, more or less like what you see in the sim :)

 

Yes miguez, that is what I wanted you to notice :)

[miguez]

The Ka-50 HUD was upgraded with higher FPS IIRC, more or less like what you see in the sim :)

 

Yes miguez, that is what I wanted you to notice :)

 

Ah, that makes sense rgd HUD upgrade. And awesome on the video, once again!

[miguez]

Not quite spoiled. In reality you can`t see the refresh rate. Maybe you can see it in the corner of your eye when you`re looking left or right out of the window.

 

Hi press,

 

What I meant is how often the information on the HUD is refreshed, like altitude and airspeed, velocity vector, etc. You can see in this video that it is quite slow, like some HUDs I have seen before.

[GGTharos]

Thank Groove, he pointed me to it! :)

[ObvilionLost]

What i don't like is the rudder trim, everytime I change heading and trim to update the heading, I have to center the rudder and trim it again. I know its realistic, but with twist rudder on joystick it's hard to center the rudder :music_whistling: So either reset rudder trim button, or option to disable rudder trim would really help.

Edited January 5, 2009 by ObvilionLost

[Reticuli]

I agree, ObvilionLost. There are ways around it without needing ED to change anything, though.

 

There is a new version of my dynamic trim/trim update GlovePIE script up on the AVsim link below. There are three different modes. One for manual trimming. One for normal use. And one for when in flight director. The script is pretty long, now, so I won't post it here. A slightly revised verson (by two spoken words only) will be up by morning inside a V11 super package with everything you need inside it...hopefully. Everything else on that page should be removed.

[mac495]

Okay,how come the diamond is not on in the hud? (IN the above video)

Is there a condition in the game for it to be off?

Edited January 5, 2009 by mac495

[BakaNi]

So just to clarify on the trim.

 

Non-FFB: Point in direction, press trim, hands off stick and let it bounce back to the centre. This works fine.

 

FFB: Point in direction, press trim, stick stays where you trimmed it? With no pressure on the joystick? My ffb trims the chopper, but the stick will have constant pressure on it and will bounce back to centre on release, which causes bad flying mojo.

 

I'm not sure what to expect with FFB enabled, anyone care to enlighten me?

[Prophet]

In producer.cfg do you have FFB true or false?

[BakaNi]

In producer.cfg do you have FFB true or false?

It's true.

 

--

 

*facepalm* I've found out why my joysticks aren't behaving themselves and are moving to the centre when trimmed elsewhere.

 

It's the huge and very obvious mechanical spring that's overpowering the hold of the feedback bit.

 

Two solutions, one is to remove the pull of the spring, which I've done with a bit of string, and second is perhaps to increase the power of the force feed back?

 

The motors are pretty strong, I know they're more than capable of overpower the central spring, is there a way of increase the strength of the forcefeed back trim? (The option in the axis menu is already set at 100, I could do with say, 150/200)

 

EDIT: I've found a config file which allows me to set trim force at whatever value I see fit, unfortunately this just results in the same inital trim inaccuracy and a very stiff unresponsive stick, removal of the spring it is!

Edited January 5, 2009 by Baka^Ni

[Reticuli]

Okay,how come the diamond is not on in the hud? (IN the above video)

Is there a condition in the game for it to be off?

 

Who's that directed to?