investigating We need to talk about Force Feedback and the Mossie...

[NineLine]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:27 AM, VirusAM said:

Well, things are already changing.

I am excited if they are, but they need to be out there in force to be supported, or the people creating them should send units to ED to support as well.

[No.401_Wolverine]

Just here to confirm I'm having quite a bit of difficulty with the Mosquito and MSFFB2 stick.

It seems to be the only aircraft I have to suffer from this effect. I fly Spitfire, F-14, F-5, F-86, P-47, all with good success and enjoyment, employing curves and using trim easily. The Mosquito is nearly unflyable and requires so much input against the stick due to trim problems that gunnery/bombing accuracy is nightmarish compared to the other aircraft.

If there's a good work around for now, I'd love to find one.

[DD_Fenrir]

4 hours ago, No.401_Wolverine said:

Just here to confirm I'm having quite a bit of difficulty with the Mosquito and MSFFB2 stick.

It seems to be the only aircraft I have to suffer from this effect. I fly Spitfire, F-14, F-5, F-86, P-47, all with good success and enjoyment, employing curves and using trim easily. The Mosquito is nearly unflyable and requires so much input against the stick due to trim problems that gunnery/bombing accuracy is nightmarish compared to the other aircraft.

If there's a good work around for now, I'd love to find one.

Hi Wolverine,

I can only suggest a compromise solution that seems to mitigate (though not eliminate) some of the issues.

Go to your pitch curve input cell for your FFB stick, highlight it and select Axis Tune.

In the pop up window, find the user curve box and tick it.

You can then adjust the numbers manually. 
 

Use the following values:

0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 56, 100

I find these the best compromise between controllability and moving the airspeed range at which the trim tuck effect takes effect. It will also still allow you to access the full range of the elevator on the ground or at very slow speeds.

What seems to be the case is that the shallower that initial gradient the lower airspeed the trim tuck manifests. At these values it does not occur until we’ll above 300mph indicated, so be wary of it during shallow dive bomb or rocket attack profiles from several thousand feet, but it shouldn’t manifest during cruise or level bombing attacks.

[hazzer]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:48 PM, NineLine said:

I am excited if they are, but they need to be out there in force to be supported, or the people creating them should send units to ED to support as well.

Plenty of people in DCS are using FFB. It may not be the majority but we are here. 

DCS is one of the few flight sims that has a force feedback option built in, so supporting it is appreciated. Especially things like the issues with the curves which has been around since lock on and in reality it shouldn't be a massive faff to resolve, but it would need someone to look into it. 

I'm a bit confused by the attitude of saying you should be gifted a ffb stick to work on this. As a company the usual attitude is to try and cater to all audiences. Ffb is supported in dcs so it should be kept in a good state. 

I've been desperately trying to get it fixed for some time and no doubt will still be in the future. But hey ho

Edited December 26, 2022 by hazzer

[havebug]

I've started using the mossie recently. Very love the aircraft and the speed. I posses a Rhino FFB joystick. Don't want to switch to a normal Stick just for this bird. I'd appreciate any improvement developers would make about this topic.

[DD_Fenrir]

58 minutes ago, havebug said:

I've started using the mossie recently. Very love the aircraft and the speed. I posses a Rhino FFB joystick. Don't want to switch to a normal Stick just for this bird. I'd appreciate any improvement developers would make about this topic.

Hi havebug, what is the dimension of the stick from the top to the apparent point of pivot?

[VirusAM]

43 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Hi havebug, what is the dimension of the stick from the top to the apparent point of pivot?

I don't have measures at the moment...but the pivot is quite longer then any other commercial stick.

I don't know about havebug, but I use also z-extension from virpil...

The mossie is unflyable with ffb sticks as you cannot apply any curve.

 

[havebug]

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

Hi havebug, what is the dimension of the stick from the top to the apparent point of pivot?

I have a VKB 200mm extension, so total is roughly  300mm. 
Btw, my Rhino has a DIY mechanics and not a stock version

[DD_Fenrir]

27 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

The mossie is unflyable with ffb sticks as you cannot apply any curve.

You can but it comes at a cost and you have to find a compromise for your stick length that keeps it controllable whilst limiting the airspeeds at which the elevators lock up to a speed range at which it least affects you.

Note: I am not syaying this is right, I'd much rather this mis-match between input curves and virtual stick forces was sorted out but in the interim, it can be made less of a pain.

[peachmonkey]

7 hours ago, havebug said:

I've started using the mossie recently. Very love the aircraft and the speed. I posses a Rhino FFB joystick. Don't want to switch to a normal Stick just for this bird. I'd appreciate any improvement developers would make about this topic.

see if you can nudge walmis on rhino discord to take a look at it as well. I pinged him about it last week, he mentioned that he'll try to test the mossie with rhino to fully grasp the problem, so far it's just me bugging him about it, if you add your voice maybe he'll do it sooner.

He was trying to see if he can modify the received telemetry and re-inject it into the stream using his app telemFFB.

null

null

Edited April 28, 2023 by peachmonkey

[havebug]

Just a workaround. Patches in my opinion should be applied if there's no other way. We need a fix at the root so that other FFB vendor could benefit from this.

For instance I have a spare MS FFB2 and I'd like it worked straight away

[peachmonkey]

18 minutes ago, havebug said:

Just a workaround. Patches in my opinion should be applied if there's no other way. We need a fix at the root so that other FFB vendor could benefit from this.

For instance I have a spare MS FFB2 and I'd like it worked straight away

the FFB getting messed up with the added curves in DCS affects ALL modules. Literally all of them.

ED hasn't acknowledged a single request to fix it. So, I wouldn't wait for miracles, you'll have a head full of gray hair by the time it's addressed 

Edited April 28, 2023 by peachmonkey

[havebug]

On 9/25/2022 at 12:40 PM, DD_Fenrir said:

Use the following values:

0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 56, 100

Definitely the best settings tried so far, thanks

[Wiggy]

Tried the Mossie again for the first time in ages in hopes of being able to actually trim the thing out, but alas tis still the same. Any news, chaps?
 

It is still unflyable unfortunately. I’ve had the module since release and have not once been able to use it properly.

[phasthaens]

Sadly, I don't think it's a priority for the team. Which is a shame, because I'd like to pick up more WW2 birds (Mosquito is my only one so far...and my only regrettable purchase out of 20+ modules), but I'm wary of getting another unflyable plane.

[DD_Fenrir]

1 hour ago, phasthaens said:

Sadly, I don't think it's a priority for the team. Which is a shame, because I'd like to pick up more WW2 birds (Mosquito is my only one so far...and my only regrettable purchase out of 20+ modules), but I'm wary of getting another unflyable plane.

In fairness to the other modules they are less affected as it’s combination of very effective elevator and a stick force that increases significantly as airspeed increases. The Mossie is fairly unique in the FFB user being affected so badly.

[phasthaens]

2 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

In fairness to the other modules they are less affected as it’s combination of very effective elevator and a stick force that increases significantly as airspeed increases. The Mossie is fairly unique in the FFB user being affected so badly.

That's good to know. I have zero complaints about flight models/hardware interaction for the rest of my aircraft. I just wish one of the devs would dig out their MSFFB2 joystick and porpoise around in the Mossie for a bit to see if there's anything they can do.

Thank you for making the thread, by the way. I'll continue to scan the Mossie section of the patch notes hopefully with every update.

[havebug]

On 4/28/2023 at 4:48 PM, peachmonkey said:

see if you can nudge walmis on rhino discord to take a look at it as well. I pinged him about it last week, he mentioned that he'll try to test the mossie with rhino to fully grasp the problem, so far it's just me bugging him about it, if you add your voice maybe he'll do it sooner.

He was trying to see if he can modify the received telemetry and re-inject it into the stream using his app telemFFB.

null

null

 

Configured right now the Rhino Input Loopback.

Removed the trim function from the game and assigned two buttons from my throttle to the Y axis trim.

It works great!

 

[peachmonkey]

22 minutes ago, havebug said:

Configured right now the Rhino Input Loopback.

Removed the trim function from the game and assigned two buttons from my throttle to the Y axis trim.

It works great!

 

color me interested!

Can you elaborate a bit on your setup?

- "removed trim function" <--- what do you mean by this? Setting the trim to 0 in Mossie cockpit?

- "input loopback"  <--- that's for the Grip, right? (picture below). and with the loopback app you combined your Throttle with Rhino base so you can use the trim... But what trim are you referring to in this case?  There's some "Force Trim" in vpforce, it's for helicopters I think...   I guess my question is how do you trim (with what) Mossie without using in-cockpit trim bindings.. ?

 

null

Edited May 9, 2023 by peachmonkey

[havebug]

32 minutes ago, peachmonkey said:

"removed trim function"

simply deleted the assignment in DCS. It was previously assigned to an axis that kept on spoiling the trim.

Enable the trim function in VPForce program. If you want to use the Grip attached to Rhino you don't need any loopback.

Check this guide:

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by havebug

[peachmonkey]

10 minutes ago, havebug said:

simply deleted the assignment in DCS. It was previously assigned to an axis that kept on spoiling the trim.

Enable the trim function in VPForce program. If you want to use the Grip attached to Rhino you don't need any loopback.

gotcha,

so, as far as trim in VPForce, are you talking about the Force Trim? (see picture below)

if so:

- how where do you assign the actual buttons to these trim functions?  I can't figure this part out..

- are you also using Curves in FFB axis in DCS for Mossie?

null

Edited May 9, 2023 by peachmonkey

[havebug]

Chek in case you have the latest Firmware and software...

Just click in any of the text boxes and push the button to be binded. 

Adjust the curve (in DCS) at your taste.

 

[peachmonkey]

1 hour ago, havebug said:

Chek in case you have the latest Firmware and software...

Just click in any of the text boxes and push the button to be binded. 

Adjust the curve (in DCS) at your taste.

 

gotcha, thank you again, @havebug!  I thought those 0 numbers represented some multipliers, hence I didn't even try assigning buttons because of it and was looking for them somewhere else entirely.

I'll test it out and will give you a shout back. Cheers!

Edited May 9, 2023 by peachmonkey

[peachmonkey]

18 hours ago, havebug said:

Chek in case you have the latest Firmware and software...

Just click in any of the text boxes and push the button to be binded. 

Adjust the curve (in DCS) at your taste.

 

@havebugagain, big thank you for pointing me to this solution!!!

It freaking works!!  

For anyone with RHINO the solution to the curves vs. trim issues = this is the way to do it.

1) enable ForceTrim feature in VPforce

2) enable "Override Trim" as well, this will over-ride the SpringCenter position that DCS generates. If you leave it off the Trim won't work.

3) set the "Slew Rate" = ~20 or higher for faster trim, albeit less precise.

4) assign buttons to Top/Bottom (pitch) and Left/Right (roll)

5) On Mossie i run a Y saturation (instead of curves) to flatten out the response curve, and it works wonderfully.  On P47 I run a curve of 40+ to get a nicely balanced pitch response.

Couple of gotcha's:
- the spring center moves forward about ~35% of the Y throw (i.e. from the center position), i.e. the stick center will move away from you, having an S type of stick extension will help to offset it (I use VirPil S extension, 20cm). The overall move of the center forward 30% doesn't affect the operation of Mossie one bit, since it has a pretty wide Y band that goes way outside of Mossie's practical limits.

- in Mossie, if you use the Rhino's trim (i.e. the above force-trim feature) for Y axis only (pitch), and continue to use in-game Aileron trim (X axis), then anytime you move the X trim it will reset the Y center back to the original place causing Mossie to violently pitch up (and requires re-trimming again). Because of it, I recommend you use both Y and X Rhino force-trimmers and avoid using in-game x/y trimmers. (Interestingly enough, it's an issue with Mossie only. I've tried a similar setup with P47 and trimming roll axis (x) doesn't reset Pitch axis (Y) at all, go figure .  Edit: Actually, P47 has the same issue, never mind. Gotta use both x/y hw trimmers in these models.)

Edited May 10, 2023 by peachmonkey

[havebug]

for MS Sidewinder FFB 2 users (and G940 users as well),  the SimFFB utilility does the same.

https://github.com/joeyjojojunior/simFFB

compile for your system.

just unassign the trim function in DCS and see the configuration below. 

You can use the hat switch to trim both your X/Y axis.

I check with the controller itself and it works. didn't try in game though...

I guess G940 users should uncheck "Swap Axis"

null

Edited May 10, 2023 by havebug