Mirage F1 vs many other modules in low-level ground attack (e.g. AJS-37, F-5E-3 and M-2000C)

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

It is rather noob. What are the differences between them?

Edited July 19, 2022 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[toilet2000]

Lots of differences. The F1 is not a ground attack aircraft at first, it's an interceptor on which was added unguided ground weapons. Also, the CE is a 1970s version whereas the AJS-37 is an early 1990s upgrade of a 1970s base aircraft.

Notable difference:
- Ground radar: AJS37 has more advanced modes with better details, including radar targeting. F1 has basic visualization and no targeting.
- Nav systems: AJS37 has an INS with TERNAV automatic fixes, whereas the F1CE has no INS whatsoever.
- AG Weaponry: AJS37 has both unguided and guided weapons, F1CE only has unguided weaponry.
- AG systems: while the AJS37 has dedicated ground attack modes and targeting systems, including early CCIP/CCRP with radar ranging or nav ranging, the F1CE is all manual releases (no CCIP/CCRP).
- Low-level navigation: the AJS37 has a dedicated terrain avoidance mode and radar altimeter with dedicated indications for ground collision avoidance, including on the HUD. The F1CE has none of that (including no radar altimeter).

Edited July 18, 2022 by toilet2000

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Further question: Can F1CE go supersonic eat low altitude?

[Snacko 2-1]

31 minutes ago, toilet2000 said:

 

- AG Weaponry: AJS37 has both unguided and guided weapons, F1CE only has unguided weaponry.

Yes and no, the F1CE can truck in LGBs, but it can not target them. So it will need to rely on JTAC or buddy Laze 

[Criticale2orr]

49 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Further question: Can F1CE go supersonic eat low altitude?

Yes

[TLTeo]

Also the Viggen carries anti-ship missiles, unlike the Mirage.

Also to be nitpicky, the Viggen does not carry an INS, it carries a Doppler dead reckoning navigation system

[WinterH]

This is not even a comparison really. AJS 37 is a mid 90s update (albeit a relatively modest update) to already attack specialized AJ 37. It has different ways to deliver unguided rockets and bombs quite accurately, can use mavericks, can use 7-8ish km ranged precision guided gliding submunition dispensers (BK 90 Mjölnir), has two types of anti-ship missiles, latter being rather sophisticated, and a "fly this missile with its own joystick" MCLOS missile with a big warhead. It has a navigation/attack computer that is designed to do these things well while helping with targeting/accuracy.

Mirage F1 on the other hand is bred a lot more towards fulfilling an air-to-air first, strike second role, especially in the C versions. The version we are getting first, CE, will only have manual bombing/strafing like the F-5. It will also only have beacon based navigation. And unlike the Viggen it will not be able to designate a ground target through the use of its radar.

But unlike the Viggen it will have a lot more toys to play with for air combat like close in quick acquisition modes, a dogfight mode with IR missiles and internal cannons (which Viggen also lacks, at least in its attack version) and more.

EE version we will get later will have an INS navigation set, but it will still not feature any ground ranging features to use with ground attack weapons, so it will also be simply manual "kentucky windage" or bombing tables.

F1M we will get as the last version available in the module is a late 90s upgrade and that one will have CCIP and CCRP features, but it may still not quite be the equal of AJS 37 as a strike aircraft, but will be a much better multirole aircraft, while CE and EE will be primarily fighters and secondarily attackers.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Thanks all. So the better question would be: how does it compare to F-5E in A2A combat?

[=475FG= Dawger]

6 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Thanks all. So the better question would be: how does it compare to F-5E in A2A combat?

It should outperform the F-5 at the same weight and, hopefully, the wings will remain attached. 

[Sarge55]

LOL'd, gotta get those digs in when you can... Mine is the missing data cartridges.

[Kev2go]

2 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Thanks all. So the better question would be: how does it compare to F-5E in A2A combat?

I would still expect the F5E to have a tighter turn , though the F1  will have a better T/W ratio to work with. the Engine as i saw from some youtube content creators is still possible to stall out like the F14A TF30's if you abuse too much, wheras in the F5 i cant recall ever doing that to my engines

 

Mirage F1CE does has a better radar than the F5 ( although its still not a pulse doppler, but an MTI) , and a medium range radar missile to go with it , the Radar warning receiver however seems to be pretty rudimentary something akin to a Mig21 SPO 10. 

 

Though i would say long term investment is with it as they plan to include in the same pack the Mirage F1EE ( will have INS navigation and a proper RWR ) and then the F1M ( modernized digital cockpit avionics)

Edited July 18, 2022 by Kev2go

[kontiuka]

11 hours ago, TLTeo said:

Also the Viggen carries anti-ship missiles, unlike the Mirage.

Fingers crossed we'll see an Exocet in the future.

Edited July 19, 2022 by kontiuka

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

It begins to sound like a retro version of Mirage 2000C.

[Korshtal]

1 hour ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

It begins to sound like a retro version of Mirage 2000C.

That's because the Mirage F1 is the direct predecessor of the Mirage 2000. 

[WinterH]

IMO, the most meaningful comparison in ground attack between Mirage F1 and other aircraft would be with MiG-21Bis and F-5E, as well as the A-4E mod.

F-5E vs Mirage F1CE:

- About the same bomb payload. Looking at lighter, Mk-82 class bombs, F-5 can carry one more, 5 centerline, 4 under the wings, 9 total, vs 8 for the Mirage. Mirage however can still carry 8 SAMP 400s apparently, which are Mk 83 equivalents, and F-5 can't quite do that. Mirage also gets Durandal anti runway bombs, which F-5 doesn't have an equivalent for. Both can get either high drag or low drag on any bomb capable pylons they have.

- Rockets wise they can both carry 4 pods under wings, and rockets themselves seem mostly comparable.

- Cluster bombs: both can take 4 cluster bombs, but Mirage's Belougas are a lot better against most target types than CBU-52s on F-5.

- Guns: 2 high velocity but high dispersion 20mms on F-5 vs 2 lower velocity 30mms on Mirage. Both pretty good vs lighter ground targets, neither of too much use vs any better armor IMO.

- Targeting/delivery: both the same... either "use the force" and git-gud with manually hitting targets by eyeballing, kentucky windaging, or use tables and manually depressably fixed sight settings and fly a certain speed/altitude/dive angle to make the sight coincide with the intended target. They both have some control over delivery options like ripple vs single, but F-5 also has a small amount of choice in release frequency, Mirage doesn't quite seem to from what I understand so far.

MiG-21Bis vs Mirage F1CE:

- Mirage simply has a better bombload, and can still carry 2 air to air missiles while doing that, whereas the MiG has to use up all its pylons for any sizable bombload. Maximum MiG can get is either 2 x 500 kgs + 2 x 250 kgs, or 8 x 100 kgs and 2 x 250 kgs. MiG can only get 2 x 250 kg high drag bombs if it wants to do that kind of bombing. Elephant in the room is, though, it can take single tactical nuke for centerline, for memes  AFAIK MiG also has an anti-runway option, but can carry only two of those.

- MiG has access to a variety of cluster bombs, and they are quite ok, though, 4 Belougas from Mirage are still overall better in my opinion.

- Rockets: MiG can either get 96 rather puny S-5 rockets, or alternatively it can get 4 of the rather very much boom-boom S-24s, and S-24s are cool :P.

- Guns: MiG has a single twin barrel GSh-23L 23mm autocannon with a pretty high rate of fire, still a lot faster than Mirage's 2 DEFA 553 guns combined. However, 23mm has very low muzzle velocity and considerable shell drop in a short range. It is not too useful against armor, but can still be a decent strafing gun against softer targets.

- Missiles: Well, MiG-21Bis in DCS gets Kh-66 beam riding missiles. They are more of a novelty, but are fun. However, IRL they were only compatible with older variants and Bis couldn't really use them, as the upgraded radar lost the ability to guide beam riders.

- Targeting/delivery: Right now, DCS MiG-21Bis gets CCIP functionality with bombs, which apparently it shouldn't IRL. The module is supposed to get a workover at some point in future so that may go away. It is however, apparently still supposed to retain it for the rockets, as well as strafing with the gun (which it can't right now). To be fair however, I often opted to do manual level bombing runs. MiG gets no release frequency setting, nor the ability to asymethrically release ordnance: whatever pylons you have selected, they'll go whoosh at once.

A-4E:

- Little A-4 can carry a lot of bombs for its size, but more numerous options are lighter bombs, and it can't quite carry as many Mk 83 class ones like Mirage seem to be able to for example. However, we can say both can lug around a good amount of bombs.

- A-4 can get a good number of Rockeye cluster bombs, and they are quite good. It also gets submunition dispensers like KMGU on Russian aircraft, however these only release tiny, more or less hand grenade level bomblets mostly intended against personnel.

- A-4 can lug around an insane amount of FFAR rockets. They are horribly inaccurate, fan out all over the place, warheads aren't that great, but she does carry A LOT. Also, she can get not as many, but still a lot of Zuni rockets, which makes much bigger boom, and are a lot more accurate.

- Guns: A-4 gets 2 20mms that have decent velocity, but their accuracy leaves something to be desired.

- Missiles: A-4 can get 4 AGM-45 Shrike anti radar missiles. They are adorably horrible, but still represent a unique capability among the 4 aircraft in our little comparison.

- While strafing and rockets in A-4 are also a manual affair, the same as Mirage F1 and F-5E, A-4 actually has a cool old bombing computer that allows a CCRP-like capability with either level, dive, or even toss deliveries, and it is fairly accurate! A-4 also has a plethora of ways to customize release settings: pairs, singles, many release intervals etc. Finally, while rather primitive, A-4 has doppler NAV system to help it get where its targets will be.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

1 hour ago, Korshtal said:

That's because the Mirage F1 is the direct predecessor of the Mirage 2000. 

I thought 2000 was derived from III

[TLTeo]

Nop, it was a progression of Mirage 3/5 (introduce in 1961) > Mirage F1 (1973) > Mirage 2000 (1984). Just because the Mirage 3 and 2000 are both pure delta doesn't mean that Dassault took everything from the 3 and nothing from the F1 when they designed the 2000.

[QuiGon]

16 hours ago, TLTeo said:

Nop, it was a progression of Mirage 3/5 (introduce in 1961) > Mirage F1 (1973) > Mirage 2000 (1984). Just because the Mirage 3 and 2000 are both pure delta doesn't mean that Dassault took everything from the 3 and nothing from the F1 when they designed the 2000.

Indeed, if you're familiar with the 2000 and get into the F1CE you will recognize a lot of the panels in the cockpit from the 2000.

[killkenny1]

17 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Indeed, if you're familiar with the 2000 and get into the F1CE you will recognize a lot of the panels in the cockpit from the 2000.

Yup, this is what I noticed as well during Redkite's start-up tutorial video.

Cockpit layout looked familiar, yet different.