Carrier group composition question

[twistking]

Hi,
what would be realistic - or plausible - carrier group composition within the limits of dcs?
What are your preferred setups?

Would it be realistic to have one carrier, one cruiser (ticonderoga) and three destroyers (arleigh burke)? (going light on diversity to maybe help with video memory )

Where could i find typical formations for a group?

How realistic would it be to have the ships only 1 or 2 nm apart? I like to put them so close to give some visual reference when doing Case I approaches, but i suspect that a wider formation would be tactically superior...

Thanks!

[ruxtmp]

That composition is not unrealistic however 1-2 miles apart would be way too close. There would also be an oiler/supply ship with the battle group. Admiral189 has some excellent ship mods and an oiler is one of them. There is an inner group out to about 20-30km a middle group, and an outer group that can be up to 100km out from the CVN. Usually a DDG would be in the outer group as a picket ship but the ship type will depend on the commander.

[twistking]

3 hours ago, ruxtmp said:

That composition is not unrealistic however 1-2 miles apart would be way too close. There would also be an oiler/supply ship with the battle group. Admiral189 has some excellent ship mods and an oiler is one of them. There is an inner group out to about 20-30km a middle group, and an outer group that can be up to 100km out from the CVN. Usually a DDG would be in the outer group as a picket ship but the ship type will depend on the commander.

alright. thanks a lot.

one question though: when there can be up to three sub-groups, this means that a sub-group may only consist of a single ship or two? is this correct?

what would be a typical distance for ships in the inner group?
 

[draconus]

Check here:

 

[Andartu]

Most DCS mission designers place everything way too close together for a "nice picture". Sometimes even in a kinda criminal way where you need to watch out not to cut off the antennas of an Arleigh Burke sitting directly in front of the carrier after launch.
There is no fixed composition for a CSG. It varies from mission to mission and how the assets are available. Also the placement changes. Would be a bit silly if everybody would know where the escorts are.

This is just to get an idea of how far apart the parts of the group -CAN- be. Also of course it simply depends on the space available. Persian Gulf is of course much more narrow than the Atlantic or Pacific.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Andartu

[Raptor9]

It's also rather amusing to see pretty much every carrier mission in DCS have a helicopter permanently hovering next to the carrier in formation with it. It's sort of one of those misconceptions that everyone thinks is true, partly because it's so commonly shown in video games and such.

Aside from the fact a helicopter is burning fuel at a high rate doing that, it's also hanging out around the edges of the height/velocity "avoid" regions.

Which isn't to say there isn't a "plane guard" helo close by during launch/recover operations, but maintaining a hovering formation with the carrier is sort of silly.

[Andartu]

8 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

It's also rather amusing to see pretty much every carrier mission in DCS have a helicopter permanently hovering next to the carrier in formation with it. It's sort of one of those misconceptions that everyone thinks is true, partly because it's so commonly shown in video games and such.

Aside from the fact a helicopter is burning fuel at a high rate doing that, it's also hanging out around the edges of the height/velocity "avoid" regions.

Which isn't to say there isn't a "plane guard" helo close by during launch/recover operations, but maintaining a hovering formation with the carrier is sort of silly.

Yes so much this. One of the weird misconceptions within the DCS community, especially mission designers. Actually very glad you bring that up, never saw anybody mentioning it yet.

Every now and then in forums/reddit the question comes up "how do I make the helo fly next to the carrier?" cause they think this is the way, followed by the answer pointing to the moose script. They want to have that in their thinking needed eye candy thing.

And everybody uses it, even in campaigns that try to be as realistic as possible.

In fact the plane guard or rescue helicopter actually has a freedom of movement within a circle of around 20 nm radius around the boat during daytime and 10 nm at low vis and night. Most of the time from 200ft to 500ft. So they simply fly around within that radius and wait for the unfortunate call if needed. Also sometimes during recovery they even fly as best they can in "formation" with each plane from the break to the wire, come around and catch up the next. Quite a challenge actually.

I am not the best when it comes to scripting, so I too use Moose but always set the tanker script for the helo and just change altitude and radius. Yes it will not "pick up" a crashed/ ejected pilot, but to be honest I do not need that gimmick. I'd rather like to have a Seahawk moving around in a more realistic manner than just hovering along with the boat. Still like to have it a bit more offset to the carrier upwind. Maybe someone knows how to do that...

That is my needed eye candy, even if I don't see it all the time when the helo might be somewhere 10 nm behind or 5 nm ahead of the boat and doing its thing.

 

[Annapolis81]

It also depends on what time period you are talking about.  In the 1970's and early 1980's, we had both a destroyer and a helicopter designated for lifeguard duty-- if they were available.  In the days of LORAN ABC, it was all too easy to be permanently lost at sea.  Destroyers were tasked with anti-submarine duties and frigates were tasked with anti-air duties.  The big cruisers provided anti-surface and anti-air support.  The standard deployment of a carrier battle group was-- destroyers at 12 and 6, and frigates at 3 and 9.  Their average distance from the carrier was about 2-4 NM (depending on their sensors and weapons).  Hope that helps.

[Exorcet]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:33 PM, Andartu said:

Most DCS mission designers place everything way too close together for a "nice picture". Sometimes even in a kinda criminal way where you need to watch out not to cut off the antennas of an Arleigh Burke sitting directly in front of the carrier after launch.
There is no fixed composition for a CSG. It varies from mission to mission and how the assets are available. Also the placement changes. Would be a bit silly if everybody would know where the escorts are.

This is just to get an idea of how far apart the parts of the group -CAN- be. Also of course it simply depends on the space available. Persian Gulf is of course much more narrow than the Atlantic or Pacific.

 

 

 

Just a counter point here that applies to DCS rather than the real world. Ship anti air capability isn't great and isn't all that well coordinated against many threats, especially high speed anti ship missiles.

While spreading the ships out makes sense in reality, you'd probably want them much closer in DCS if there is a threat to your carrier group. 1-2 miles is still too close, but I've found that unless the carrier is within the missile range rings of multiple escort ships, it's easy to kill.

[Andartu]

32 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Just a counter point here that applies to DCS rather than the real world. Ship anti air capability isn't great and isn't all that well coordinated against many threats, especially high speed anti ship missiles.

While spreading the ships out makes sense in reality, you'd probably want them much closer in DCS if there is a threat to your carrier group. 1-2 miles is still too close, but I've found that unless the carrier is within the missile range rings of multiple escort ships, it's easy to kill.

Well I dunno, in my missions they are about 10nm to 12nm apart. They're also never in any danger to get shot at cause they stay away from any coastline at least 100nm to 120nm.

Actually an additional good point to this little off topic summary of weird mission designs that I also witnessed a lot. Some mission builders put their strike groups way too close to shorelines. And then they actually get stuck when steaming straight towards the coast after turning into the wind.

A carrier group always tries to avoid any dangerous position. And yet again it depends on the environment. PG or even the northern Aegean Sea gives much less room to operate than the Arabian Sea or one of the big oceans, but that does not mean the group would cruise just 20nm off the coast of Iran.

 

[Jackjack171]

On 7/28/2022 at 6:03 PM, ruxtmp said:

That composition is not unrealistic however 1-2 miles apart would be way too close. There would also be an oiler/supply ship with the battle group. Admiral189 has some excellent ship mods and an oiler is one of them. There is an inner group out to about 20-30km a middle group, and an outer group that can be up to 100km out from the CVN. Usually a DDG would be in the outer group as a picket ship but the ship type will depend on the commander.

Please keep in mind, the oilers are never really with the carrier group IRL. They sail around from point to point, alone. They have their own mission and it's all logistics. We never really see them (not even for PHOTOex's) until it's time for VERTREP/UNREP. USNS's support whomever is in the AOR and are only partially manned by Navy personnel, the majority of those crews are civilian. I hope this helps or at least, clears up a few misconceptions.

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, Andartu said:

Well I dunno, in my missions they are about 10nm to 12nm apart. They're also never in any danger to get shot at cause they stay away from any coastline at least 100nm to 120nm.

Actually an additional good point to this little off topic summary of weird mission designs that I also witnessed a lot. Some mission builders put their strike groups way too close to shorelines. And then they actually get stuck when steaming straight towards the coast after turning into the wind.

A carrier group always tries to avoid any dangerous position. And yet again it depends on the environment. PG or even the northern Aegean Sea gives much less room to operate than the Arabian Sea or one of the big oceans, but that does not mean the group would cruise just 20nm off the coast of Iran.

 

10 miles between ships is fine. I was pointing out that the ~50-100 mile spread in the image I quoted might not work very well in DCS. As far as placement, the only mature map that feels like it has room for carriers to move around is Syria. In PG I always end up putting carriers in the SE corner in order to be a couple hundred miles from the coast. Maybe carriers would operate off the coast of Oman against Iran, but it feels like a tight spot for a carrier group.

[Andartu]

16 hours ago, Exorcet said:

10 miles between ships is fine. I was pointing out that the ~50-100 mile spread in the image I quoted might not work very well in DCS. As far as placement, the only mature map that feels like it has room for carriers to move around is Syria. In PG I always end up putting carriers in the SE corner in order to be a couple hundred miles from the coast. Maybe carriers would operate off the coast of Oman against Iran, but it feels like a tight spot for a carrier group.

Yeah there are indeed quite a few areas around the world where maneuvering and coordinating the group, but also with other NATO allies and especially civil traffic is quite tense. Also other adversaries of course.

[dawgie79]

On 7/30/2022 at 3:37 PM, Andartu said:

Yes so much this. One of the weird misconceptions within the DCS community, especially mission designers. Actually very glad you bring that up, never saw anybody mentioning it yet.

Every now and then in forums/reddit the question comes up "how do I make the helo fly next to the carrier?" cause they think this is the way, followed by the answer pointing to the moose script. They want to have that in their thinking needed eye candy thing.

And everybody uses it, even in campaigns that try to be as realistic as possible.

In fact the plane guard or rescue helicopter actually has a freedom of movement within a circle of around 20 nm radius around the boat during daytime and 10 nm at low vis and night. Most of the time from 200ft to 500ft. So they simply fly around within that radius and wait for the unfortunate call if needed. Also sometimes during recovery they even fly as best they can in "formation" with each plane from the break to the wire, come around and catch up the next. Quite a challenge actually.

I am not the best when it comes to scripting, so I too use Moose but always set the tanker script for the helo and just change altitude and radius. Yes it will not "pick up" a crashed/ ejected pilot, but to be honest I do not need that gimmick. I'd rather like to have a Seahawk moving around in a more realistic manner than just hovering along with the boat. Still like to have it a bit more offset to the carrier upwind. Maybe someone knows how to do that...

That is my needed eye candy, even if I don't see it all the time when the helo might be somewhere 10 nm behind or 5 nm ahead of the boat and doing its thing.

 

Not weird at all. Most countries don’t have aircraft carriers, most people never served on a carrier. Also not everyone flying in DCS is American.  So the fact some of you find these DCS missions with these CSG configs weird is actually weird.