resolved Collective Issue

[simo-dj]

Hi everybody,

I'm experiencing a weird issue where my collective, during take off, is "wobbling" and "jittering" (I'm no english mother language so apologies if they're not the right terms).

My hardware is Thrustmaster T16000 and Thrustmaster TWCS throttle (no pedal at all)

In screenshot you can see my original fine tune of Z axis. I used this config as soon as I started fly AH64 and, apart learning problems, i found myself very confortable with it.

If you see the attached tracks, the control indicator in upper left corner shows a frenzy upward movement. I assure i move my throttle slowly, and in any case I don't move it to do the movement shown.

I changed settings and put X saturation at 86 (all the rest is the same) and this had partially softened this problem but not eliminated at all.

I tryed Rescan devices (both from settings screen and from "adjust controls" in pause menu) but not worked.

The map is Persian Gulf (I had this problem in other map), weather is set as default (20°C, no wind, no turbulence, clear skies)

Weapon loadout for trk 1 and 2 is hydra M229 HE in outer pylon and 4+4 hellfires in inner pylon. For trk 3 is 16 hellfires.

 

Can anyone help me? Thanks a lot!

collective issue 1.trk collective issue 3.trk collective issue 2.trk

Edited August 16, 2022 by simo-dj
my mistake

[Tholozor]

I can't watch the track at work, but it sounds like the SCAS collective servo bug. It's trying to maintain level flight while the altitude hold isn't engaged. You can disable the collective servo from the FLT -> UTIL page, left side under FMC -> COLL, and see if that makes it easier to control.

[admiki]

OK, that is a faulty throttle.

How does it look in Windows? Tried to calibrate it again?

[simo-dj]

1 ora fa, admiki ha scritto:

OK, that is a faulty throttle.

How does it look in Windows? Tried to calibrate it again?

Thanks @admiki

No to be honest i didn't calibrate it. I am quite sure that in the past another one had the same issue but i wasn't able to find it trough the forum and it wasn't a calibration issue.

I'll try a new calibration and i hope it's not the faulty throttle. I bought it new in december just for AH64D. I don't mistreat it so i hoped that it lasted longer.

1 ora fa, admiki ha scritto:

OK, that is a faulty throttle.

How does it look in Windows? Tried to calibrate it again?

Thanks @Tholozor

Maybe it works and it is the right solution, but it's quite weird. This problem showed up suddendly, without touching and modifying anything, so it sound strange to me that now I have to change some settings inside the helo system, but i'll give a try anyway!

Thanks again!

[Lord Vader]

Hello @simo-dj

Like Tholozor said above, this sounds a lot like a faulty axis on your throttle. But, can't be sure without some tests.

Can you go to windows control panel, game controllers and perform an axis test? If the axis behaviour is erratic, try calibrating in the "settings" tab. 
Sometimes, a degraded sensor/pot can cause spikes in the motion and that's a hardware issue.

Another thing to consider is multiple axis. Sometimes users may have a gamepad connected to the PC, even if they don't use in DCS. If it's still connected and, for some reason, an axis is also assigned (even by default) on that gamepad, it can cause some erratic behavior. 

[simo-dj]

9 minuti fa, 701 - Vader ha scritto:

Hello @simo-dj

Like Tholozor said above, this sounds a lot like a faulty axis on your throttle. But, can't be sure without some tests.

Can you go to windows control panel, game controllers and perform an axis test? If the axis behaviour is erratic, try calibrating in the "settings" tab. 
Sometimes, a degraded sensor/pot can cause spikes in the motion and that's a hardware issue.

Another thing to consider is multiple axis. Sometimes users may have a gamepad connected to the PC, even if they don't use in DCS. If it's still connected and, for some reason, an axis is also assigned (even by default) on that gamepad, it can cause some erratic behavior. 

Thanks @701 - Vader

I can confirm the only game controllers plugged on my pc are t16000 and twcs (and mouse of course)

Unfortunately right now i'm at work and can't do an axis test. I'll do it asap and report the results here. I'm quite upset. If it's an hardware fault i'm forced to change the throttle that is less than 8-months old.

 

[Baldrick33]

If it is the throttle you should see the jittering in the Windows USB Game Controllers, properties window for the device as you move it.

[simo-dj]

1 minuto fa, Baldrick33 ha scritto:

If it is the throttle you should see the jittering in the Windows USB Game Controllers, properties window for the device as you move it.

thanks @Baldrick33

Yes, i haven't tried yet. But i hope it's just a calibration issue.

I posted here this problem because i remeber another user had the same problem quite ago but i wasn't able to find the post with the solutions. I think He was adviced to press "rescan device" and he did so and problem solved. I tried this way but nothing happened. I'll try a recalibration and eventually think about changing this throttle. That's a pity beacuse i was quite satisfied about it but if it's an hardware problem this throttle turns a piece of s*it.

[Baldrick33]

What I forgot to ask was are you also using the throttle as a throttle in airplanes? You would also see the jittering in the animation of the throttle as you move it.

As others have said it sounds like you could have multiple control inputs fighting against each other though you appear to have checked this. DCS has a habit of assigning defaults to controllers it finds which need to be cleared.

[simo-dj]

38 minuti fa, Baldrick33 ha scritto:

What I forgot to ask was are you also using the throttle as a throttle in airplanes? You would also see the jittering in the animation of the throttle as you move it.

As others have said it sounds like you could have multiple control inputs fighting against each other though you appear to have checked this. DCS has a habit of assigning defaults to controllers it finds which need to be cleared.

Beside Ah64 i have also AC10-CII and Viper. To tell the truth right now I'm focused on Apache and I haven't touch the planes for a while, so I can't say if this silly behaviour is on Warthog and Viper as well. As soon as i get home from work i'll give a try but i'm afraid it's an hardware issue.

Plugged on my pc i have only T16000, TWCS and mouse. No other controllers.

[MAXsenna]

Go to Virpil's website and download their software an install, even if you don't have any Virpils, and you'll get their excellent joystick tester app. Select the TWCS, and you'll immediately notice if any thing's wrong with the throttle axis. It's a magnetic sensor, so I doubt it. I bet it's conflicting with the throttle slider on your T16000 which is a potentiometer, and could very well be faulty. Sometimes controls settings are changed in DCS, and DCS will automatically populate certain inputs. Can't remember if it did with mine. I I used to have the same setup, only with pedals. The twist axis on the T16K also uses a pot, and mine failed even if I never ever used it.

(Too bad one cannot lock it as in the Airbus version. I now use it as the radae stick in the F1 and Viggen with great success. ) 

Oh. Tip. Don't use curves or saturation on your collective.

Cheers! 

[simo-dj]

22 minuti fa, MAXsenna ha scritto:

Go to Virpil's website and download their software an install, even if you don't have any Virpils, and you'll get their excellent joystick tester app. Select the TWCS, and you'll immediately notice if any thing's wrong with the throttle axis. It's a magnetic sensor, so I doubt it. I bet it's conflicting with the throttle slider on your T16000 which is a potentiometer, and could very well be faulty. Sometimes controls settings are changed in DCS, and DCS will automatically populate certain inputs. Can't remember if it did with mine. I I used to have the same setup, only with pedals. The twist axis on the T16K also uses a pot, and mine failed even if I never ever used it.

(Too bad one cannot lock it as in the Airbus version. I now use it as the radae stick in the F1 and Viggen with great success. ) 

Oh. Tip. Don't use curves or saturation on your collective.

Cheers! 

WOW! Thanks @MAXsenna

I hadn't any clue about Virpil test feature!!

TBH i don't know if it's a conflict or hardware failure. Throttle slider on T16000 is mapped as Zoom view for every plane and until now no issue was found. I always zoomed in and out with no problem at all.

Zoom is a feature i use, in apache, only as CP/G, while i use it as a pilot very rarely. Plus these days i learning to pilot and give orders to AI George, so this slider is no used at all.

I'll take a test, try also calibrate it and then i'll give an update about this problem.

Really no curves or saturation? I'll try it!

Thanks a lot!

Edited August 17, 2022 by simo-dj
i forgot to write something...

[MAXsenna]

@simo-dj

Right! If you're already using the axis as zoom, it won't a be a conflict, though the mappings are different for pilot/CPG. So it's probably worth a check in the pilot settings, in case something changed.  

The TWCS has kind of a short range/travel, so you want all you got. I have however reduced the saturation on my collective, as it exceeds the travel/range compared to a real collective by far, so I don't need the whole range.

BTW. Have you inverted the axis in helicopters? It's a good move for muscle memory, if you ever upgrade from the throttle to a "real" collective.  

Cheers! 

Edited August 17, 2022 by MAXsenna

[simo-dj]

17 ore fa, MAXsenna ha scritto:

@simo-dj

Right! If you're already using the axis as zoom, it won't a be a conflict, though the mappings are different for pilot/CPG. So it's probably worth a check in the pilot settings, in case something changed.  

The TWCS has kind of a short range/travel, so you want all you got. I have however reduced the saturation on my collective, as it exceeds the travel/range compared to a real collective by far, so I don't need the whole range.

BTW. Have you inverted the axis in helicopters? It's a good move for muscle memory, if you ever upgrade from the throttle to a "real" collective.  

Cheers! 

 

First of all i want to thank all the kind people that wasted their time in reading and answering my help request.

Yes @MAXsennaWhen Apache module came out inverting collective axis was the first thing i did. I real love this feeling.

About my issue i grouped all the suggestions and i think i came through it!

I upgraded firmware and drivers, did joystick calibration and untightened friction screw (i already did it quite ago, but i wanted a more smooth movement) and the issue seem resolved. No more collective sudden "jumps" upwards when i pull collective lever.

One last question: Is a good idea to lubricate the TWCS tracks? And if so, WD40 is good at it or you have something else that do this job better?

 

Thanks again!

 

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, simo-dj said:

One last question: Is a good idea to lubricate the TWCS tracks? And if so, WD40 is good at it or you have something else that do this job better?

Happy you solved it!

I also loosened the screw somewhat and had a little WD40 in it. But the WD40 will dry out after a while, so you need to do it again. Now there are some inexpensive upgrade kits you can get though! 

https://www.etsy.com/no-en/listing/968346749/slider-upgrade-kit-thrustmaster-t16000m

Happy flying! 

[simo-dj]

4 minuti fa, MAXsenna ha scritto:

Happy you solved it!

I also loosened the screw somewhat and had a little WD40 in it. But the WD40 will dry out after a while, so you need to do it again. Now there are some inexpensive upgrade kits you can get though! 

https://www.etsy.com/no-en/listing/968346749/slider-upgrade-kit-thrustmaster-t16000m

Happy flying! 

Thanks again! I was afraid WD40 would damage any piece inside the throttle. ...my diy expertise is low level.

I took a look ath the upgrade. Exactly what it does? I saw a review saying that for dcs a 70% detent is perfect. Is this true or you advice another detent percenathe?

Thanks @MAXsenna

[kgillers3]

3 hours ago, simo-dj said:

Thanks again! I was afraid WD40 would damage any piece inside the throttle. ...my diy expertise is low level.

I took a look ath the upgrade. Exactly what it does? I saw a review saying that for dcs a 70% detent is perfect. Is this true or you advice another detent percenathe?

Thanks @MAXsenna

I’ll see if I can find the how to video but I bought some dielectric grease from the auto parts store put a thin film on and it was silky smooth. People will suggest the more expensive stuff but the $1.97 spark plug grease did great for me for years before I changed setups. Give me a bit to find the video on how to. I wouldn’t recommend spraying wd in but if you take it apart and clean and wipe it down with wd it might help a bit if that’s the way you want to go with it 

[simo-dj]

7 minuti fa, kgillers3 ha scritto:

I’ll see if I can find the how to video but I bought some dielectric grease from the auto parts store put a thin film on and it was silky smooth. People will suggest the more expensive stuff but the $1.97 spark plug grease did great for me for years before I changed setups. Give me a bit to find the video on how to. I wouldn’t recommend spraying wd in but if you take it apart and clean and wipe it down with wd it might help a bit if that’s the way you want to go with it 

Thanks @kgillers3.

i'll take a look as soon as you find the video for future reference.

For now, with new drivers and firmware, re-calibration, and friction screw untightened things are going well, both in smoothness and controls.

But, as said, i'll keep tight all of your advices. They've been very helpful and useful!

[kgillers3]

22 minutes ago, simo-dj said:

Thanks @kgillers3.

i'll take a look as soon as you find the video for future reference.

For now, with new drivers and firmware, re-calibration, and friction screw untightened things are going well, both in smoothness and controls.

But, as said, i'll keep tight all of your advices. They've been very helpful and useful!

 This Video shows what I did, I couldn’t find the video I used but skipping through it looks to be the same, take it apart, clean the rails, put a little tape on and grease both sides, not too much because it’ll make a mess and just collect dust and hair, put it back together, the pre bought bearings are without a doubt easier, this is probably cheaper, I ran this for about 2ish years and never had to redo it, the some of the tape eventually came out, mine was super smooth. If you have the money I’d say go for a more permanent nicer deal like the bearings, but if you don’t this worked really well for me, hopefully it works for you too if you decide to do it. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by kgillers3

[simo-dj]

21 minuti fa, kgillers3 ha scritto:

 This Video shows what I did, I couldn’t find the video I used but skipping through it looks to be the same, take it apart, clean the rails, put a little tape on and grease both sides, not too much because it’ll make a mess and just collect dust and hair, put it back together, the pre bought bearings are without a doubt easier, this is probably cheaper, I ran this for about 2ish years and never had to redo it, the some of the tape eventually came out, mine was super smooth. If you have the money I’d say go for a more permanent nicer deal like the bearings, but if you don’t this worked really well for me, hopefully it works for you too if you decide to do it. 

 

Thanks again @kgillers3 I'll take a look and decide if i'll do this.