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Best way to turn??


jason_peters
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Whats the best way to turn the heli. In a fixed wing the best way is to keep at your corner speed and get as much g as possible whilst maintaining the corner speed (as far as i understand it)

 

In a heli whats the best combo with rudder \ bank and collective

 

ie assuming in fast fwd flight is the best way to have a bit of rudder \ a bit of bank and pull on the stick a bit???

 

when slow, I assume its all in the rudder

 

thanks for any insight in this area

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Whatever the speed you should always turn with pedal toward the turn i.e. left turn- left pedal. The thing you should consider are right turns at high speed- be careful with the right pedal as you might cause blades intersection. There is no much sense in sustained turn rate for helicopters, hence it's not defined.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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Yo, I was going to post exactly the same question! When I try to turn, I bank into the turn, use the rudder, and pull back on the collective, but eventually the turn rate seems to stop, and the pulling back on the collective seems to bring the speed down a fair bit. So I too was just wondering how best to turn the bird. Also interested in doing other maneuvers like defensive jinks, stall turns, etc.

 

The manual is great if you want 150 pages on ABRIS functionality, or EKRAN codes, but there is no information at all on actually how to fly a helicopter, basic flight maneuvers or things like that.

 

Thanks,

 

Stingray

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Whatever the speed you should always turn with pedal toward the turn i.e. left turn- left pedal. The thing you should consider are right turns at high speed- be careful with the right pedal as you might cause blades intersection. There is no much sense in sustained turn rate for helicopters, hence it's not defined.

 

I've been wondering about the rudder on the tail fin and whether it was used purely as a balance aid, or indeed was used like an aircraft for turn in.

 

Stingray. In a conventional heli you do not intitiate a turn with the pedals at all, they are only used for balance. Plus you do not pull back on the cyclic to raise your nose as you will lose all your speed, you raise the collective instead to maintain altitude (something that took a while to get the hang of for me after flying fixed wing)

 

Can you explain what you mean Airtito with that last line, I think you mean that heli's do not do "Rate 1" turns? But that doesn't make sense as they do.

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Step on the ball. Use the turn indicator as guidance, and keep the ball in the middle, while maintaining altitude with cyclic and collective.

 

This is my non-real-helicopter-pilot tip :)

A-10C, AV-8B, Ka-50, F-14B, F-16C, F-5E, F/A-18C, L-39, Mi-8, MiG-21, MiG-29, SA34, Spitfire, Su-27, Su-33, UH-1H

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I was looking for similar information this morning and ran across this...

 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/Flttrain/Planes/Pubs/TP9982/Exercise6.htm

 

Most interestingly, I found this quote towards the bottom...

 

"One common fault when entering turns is excessive use of the pedals. This fault can be corrected quickly or completely prevented, if you remember right from the outset not to apply pedal unless it is necessary to control yaw. Normally you may need only a small pedal input into the turn."

 

hi, anyone has a place where we can study about maneuvering helicopters, specially the Ka-50? thanks!
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I was looking for similar information this morning and ran across this...

 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/Flttrain/Planes/Pubs/TP9982/Exercise6.htm

 

Most interestingly, I found this quote towards the bottom...

 

"One common fault when entering turns is excessive use of the pedals. This fault can be corrected quickly or completely prevented, if you remember right from the outset not to apply pedal unless it is necessary to control yaw. Normally you may need only a small pedal input into the turn."

 

that's great!

in fact, too much information!

:doh:

 

thanks a lot JHepburn!

 

edit: this would be the .pdf version for download:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/EN/TP9982/PDF%5CHR/TP9982E.PDF


Edited by aledmb
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Can you explain what you mean Airtito with that last line, I think you mean that heli's do not do "Rate 1" turns? But that doesn't make sense as they do.

 

Helicopters do all kind of turns, even such that airplanes can only dream of. Sustained turn rate is what defines maneuverability of fighter planes which requires maximum thrust at the given density altitude and high G-load. Because of the principles of flight such parameter as turn rate can not be observed the same way as for airplanes. At flat turn you can easily hit 90 deg/sec turn rate with a helicopter. Poor F-22 does only 28 deg/sec :D

 

In other words, while sustained turn rate is very important for airplanes it's means nothing for helicopters during combat.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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There is no much sense in sustained turn rate for helicopters, hence it's not defined.

 

LOL but the turn radius can be zero. :D

 

It actualy turns on a dime.!

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I was looking for similar information this morning and ran across this...

 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/Flttrain/Planes/Pubs/TP9982/Exercise6.htm

 

Most interestingly, I found this quote towards the bottom...

 

"One common fault when entering turns is excessive use of the pedals. This fault can be corrected quickly or completely prevented, if you remember right from the outset not to apply pedal unless it is necessary to control yaw. Normally you may need only a small pedal input into the turn."

 

Mmmm - nice site and some good info on flying a heli

 

Do all the same principles apply to the KA-50 or should some techniques be different for any reason??

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would be nice if Vortex or another heli pilot could confirm that you hardly use any rudder/anti torque pedal while turning a chopper.

A-10C, AV-8B, Ka-50, F-14B, F-16C, F-5E, F/A-18C, L-39, Mi-8, MiG-21, MiG-29, SA34, Spitfire, Su-27, Su-33, UH-1H

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Nope you don't. While training I always got in trouble as I instinctively added a little pedal from my fixed wing flying (I never knew I did it until flying heli's).

 

Once past 30 knots the pedals are used only to maintain balance. Remember the reason you use some rudder input on turn in for a plane, is because of the aerodynamic drag the ailerons cause. No such problem occurs in a helicopter.

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I always use the rudder to turn. Probably also a hangover from flying sim planes.

 

Bearing in mind what Vortex said, that would explain why my turns always degenerate into a bloody mess.

"Never interrupt you enemy when he is making a mistake" - Napoleon Bonaparte

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The correct way to turn is to keep the slip ball in the center. For that you need pedal input, toward the turn. It's called coordinated turn.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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lol, I'm confused. A helicopter pilot says no to rudder input, a guy from ED Testers team says yes to rudder input.

 

I'm in favor of no rudder input at the moment unless another chopper pilot counters what Vortex just said. :)

A-10C, AV-8B, Ka-50, F-14B, F-16C, F-5E, F/A-18C, L-39, Mi-8, MiG-21, MiG-29, SA34, Spitfire, Su-27, Su-33, UH-1H

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From what I understood from aledmb's link, rudder input should only occur if there is undesired yawing. Small corrections to keep the ball centered and so on.

"Never interrupt you enemy when he is making a mistake" - Napoleon Bonaparte

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Here is what I did...

 

Create a dinky little mission, just you on the airfield. Cut your HUD off. Take off, watch your instruments, find a landmark and try different things and see how the aircraft reacts.

 

I was fighting trim and the AP for a long time. I was also fighting inertia. Inertia is the hardest thing to figure out. But with practice you will know when to pull a tight turn and when to swan turn the shark in a graceful turn. Use the VVI and the ADI alot more than you use it now.

 

Also, measure yourself. Not like that...but create a metric for how you are doing. I thought I knew how to land or make turns, until i had to land on a pad. Then I was screwed, or I thought I could circle an objective, until I had to do it and maintain situational awareness. Its tough. But practice, practice, practice.

 

Sorry for the ramble. Love the sim.

 

SunDown

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lol, I'm confused. A helicopter pilot says no to rudder input, a guy from ED Testers team says yes to rudder input.

 

I'm in favor of no rudder input at the moment unless another chopper pilot counters what Vortex just said. :)

 

You can fly upside down if you like ;) I'm just telling you what the books say about general flying techniques of Kamov helicopters.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

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You can fly upside down if you like ;) I'm just telling you what the books say about general flying techniques of Kamov helicopters.

Well, thats a good argument ;)

 

(My upside down flying skills is extremely poor in a helicopter that doesn't produce negative pitch on the rotor blades ;) )

A-10C, AV-8B, Ka-50, F-14B, F-16C, F-5E, F/A-18C, L-39, Mi-8, MiG-21, MiG-29, SA34, Spitfire, Su-27, Su-33, UH-1H

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