Observations From a Cold War Era Aeroscout

[TBone]

So, I've been meaning to sit down and do this for a few weeks and have just now found the time. I'll try to keep it short, but it won't be, so I'll try to keep it dense. I was an Aeroscout from 1988-1993 flying the old OH-58 A/C. Back then, the scouts were unarmed for the most part, save a M-16 jammed across the glare shield and my .38 revolver in my survival vest. For this reason, we typically operated in a scout/weapons team with an AH-1S following as our armament. The Apaches and 58D were just coming online when I left the Army. I'm loving the DCS Apache and am chomping at the bit, but not holding my breath, for the Kiowa Warrior.

 

I've been observing how the Apache is being employed on several servers and very much so on the Rotorheads server. I have some observations to offer tactics-wise that some may find helpful. This will apply to the U.S. attack and utility helicopters specifically as the Russian helicopters are designed differently and for different doctrine and they are employed more like very low level, very maneuverable, fixed wing aircraft that happen to be able to take off and land vertically. Keep in mind, I was in a very different aircraft with very different equipment and very different times, but I think this advice should still hold true. If there are any Apache or Kiowa Warrior vets here that have anything to add or critique or correct, I welcome the input!

 

1) Here's the biggest thing: I see a lot of folks just hovering at 800, 1000, 1500 feet AGL for many minutes, lobbing hellfires at bad guys. If you are doing this, you are really missing the advantage of a helicopter which is to utilize cover and concealment to survive. You should unmask just high enough to spot and shoot the threats that are in range. In some threat situations this may be fine but for the most part, the longer you are way up there, the more likely you are to be tracked and shot down. It also leaves you with less evasion options especially when trying to evade from a state of zero or low airspeed (-60kts). 

2) Too much hovering. You present a more difficult target to track when moving even if it is at just 30-40kts and you have a quicker response for the aircraft to deploy to cover if you are engaged. Also, you will increase the flight endurance by keeping hovering to a minimum. This is also a great way to avoid settling with power. Also, if you are hit, it is easier to autorotate with some forward momentum and it gives you a better chance of getting to a safe landing location.

3) Unmasking in the same spot twice in a row. This is a cardinal sin! I learned this in my first trip to Hohenfels maneuver area where we war gamed with m.i.l.e.s. equipment. On a night scout mission, we unmasked from cover and saw a OPFOR tank nestled in a tree line. We immediately masked but didn't get a good fix on the type and exact position soooo, popped right back up in the same spot and this time, Mr. tank had his turret pointed right in our direction and shot us down (simulated)!

4) More of a courtesy: Calling "rifle" on comms and coordinating laser codes with others to avoid targeting conflicts and other pilots frantically dumping precious flares and diving for cover every time a friendly Apache fires a missile. Along the same lines, I typically set my countermeasures on bypass, so I'm not wasting flares on friendly fire, and I don't carry chaff. If you have your helicopter close to or down in the weeds, radar guided AA should be a non-factor and then you can carry more flares. Also, if you limit your altitude, and a radar guided weapon is fired at you, you can easily defeat it with cover or concealment.

 

If you are still with me here, my typical planning and profile looks something like this;

Before departure-I set a start point in the TSD, and alternate, and then note a point that is about 10K from the FEBA with good terrain relief or concealment, trees or buildings, and set a release point there, in the TSD. Load 50-60% fuel and 90 flares plus weapons of choice. If there are preprogramed CM's or TGT's on the TSD, I make note of them and plan for my ingress from the RP to avoid contact. Countermeasures on bypass, Acq to TADS, left MFD to Vid/TADS so I can see what the CPG or George is looking at. During the day, I will jump in the front seat for a sec to set TV instead of FLIR if I have no CPG. If someone knows how to do that from the back seat, let me know.

 

After takeoff-Climb to about 800ft AGL so I can safely get my head in the cockpit for a minute without driving into the ground. If no CPG, I get George set up and WASed on hellfires and have him look ahead at the next waypoint. Make sure all exterior lights are off, countermeasures on, weapons armed, gun WASed. Set direct to RP and note the flight time. I usually use flight time plus 30 to 45 minutes, depending how far away I get from the RP, for my bingo time. When I'm all fenced in, I head down to treetop height for ingress, around 100kts, using terrain features to mask my aircraft.

Approaching RP-A click or two out from RP I will pop up, keeping my speed up, high enough to get a good view over the terrain. I have the CPG or George do a quick look at 10, 12 and 2 o'clock. If nothing, back down to the weeds and because I'm expecting enemy contact but don't know where or when, I proceed a little more methodically. 40kts, quick pop up every couple of clicks, quick scan, if we make contact, back down in the weeds and head that way at 60kts, quick pop up now and then while under way until I'm in hellfire range.

 

Targets in range- At this point, come to a hover behind cover or concealment noting the terrain around us as we prepare to engage. Identify ahead of time the next firing position and where it is safe to break to cover and always know the safest egress. Unmask, just high enough to see the target and either fire if it has already been acquired or, spot, lase and store, then immediately deploy back to cover. Don't get fixated on multiple targets and drift higher and higher in a hover and remain exposed. Fixating is easy to do and I'm guilty of it myself. Hard to resist easy pickings but when that Strela shows up that I didn't see before or it spawns in near me and I'm 1500ft in the air with nowhere to hide...bad news. Kill one, back to cover, I reposition laterally (not actually flying sideways but actually moving to positions to the left and right of me) instead of moving forward, below the tree line or terrain feature then pop up and repeat. A lot of times it pays off to bob up to just do a scan from 9 to 3 o'clock and, from close to far, to identify any threats you missed, just spawned in, or are a greater threat than your target group, without engaging. When all targets in range are cleared, I go back down, 40kts, bounce cover to cover and repeat the above until new targets present themselves.

 

In the thick of it- I stay low, like weed top level, and moving 30-40kts, unless I am actively popping up to search or engage then quickly back to cover. Avoid flying over groups of trees and if I have to, always make notes of clearings to duck into or autorotate into if I get hit. I don't want to have to crash land into trees. Pop up only high enough to see and engage targets and don't unmask in the same spot twice in a row. If that manpad, Zeus monster or Strela, sees me and doesn't have time to fire, he surely will get me the next time I expose my helicopter in the same location. Great thing about helicopters is if one gets disoriented or loses SA, one can just scoot to cover, land and get regrouped. 

 

Egress-No matter what phase of the fight I'm in, I ALWAYS know how I'm getting the heck outta there! At Bingo (ingress+30 to 40 minutes fuel time) or Winchester, whichever comes first, I get down and fast, staying in low ground. 10ft AGL is a lot of work but it's a blast! 120kts, 10 feet off the ground feels pretty fast. In fact, all this is a lot of work and a few hours of it is pretty tiring. Often my rear end hurts from clenching, working rudder pedals. I probably actually have a higher "fatality" rate from pilot error than I do from being shot down. But the more I fly, the better I get.

 

Night and other considerations-The dark offers a level of concealment that allows to fly a little higher up, 200 to 500ft AGL. Keep in mind though that the dark only protects you from visual acquisition. The Apache is fully capable of operating down and dirty in complete darkness and I usually don't change my strategy. It does require significantly more focus and SA to do safely.  I will usually ingress, egress and land using NVGs and then transition to IHADDs when I'm close to the RP. In situations where the AA threat is non-existent, flying and attacking from altitude is fine but it is a good idea to stay moving. I'll usually do orbits, engaging as I approach and then breaking when I'm close to small arms range. This makes it easier to maneuver if a threat does appear, make it easier to autorotate if the need arises and uses significantly less fuel than hovering.

Like I said, there may be some new considerations that I'm not aware of due to the ancient nature of the helicopter I flew in. I would love to hear some thoughts, positive or critical, on this from Casmo or other guys that flew Apaches or Kiowa Warriors. And one last thing, if anyone sees me, Aeroscout'88-'93, on a server somewhere, feel free to hop in the CPG seat and we'll go put some warheads on foreheads!

 

 

[Raptor9]

@TBone, excellent summary. I say "summary" because you managed to capture a lot of the most important points about operating helicopters over the battlefield on one page, which is not easy. In response to your final paragraph, all I will say is that despite the differences in airframe, the overall concept remains the same. The difference being that all the new fancy bells and whistles in the AH-64D and OH-58D just enhance the principles and fighting mentality you described. The sensors and large amounts of data provide the aircrew with more options or potential solutions for how to perform their tasks, but if the underlying principles aren't there all the technology in the world won't really help much. The gray matter behind the IHADSS monocle is what really matters.

Thanks for this post.

EDIT: I'll have to look into the extra flares capability. That should no longer be possible. Should only be possible to load 60 flares and 30 chaff, with no interchangeability.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Raptor9

[TBone]

31 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

EDIT: I'll have to look into the extra flares capability. That should no longer be possible. Should only be possible to load 60 flares and 30 chaff, with no interchangeability.

Ugh. Me and my big mouth

[Floyd1212]

Thanks for the write-up!  And I couldn't agree more; down low at the treetops is where the fun is.

I need to do better at being aware of my egress options, and planning accordingly, though.

When I do find myself climbing to higher altitudes it is often to engage a target that is tucked in a valley or on the other side of a small hill, where to engage at a safe distance means a much higher altitude.  What is the recommended tactic in that situation?  Stay low and get closer to engage, or stay at a safe distance and climb higher?  I suspect the right answer is probably to mark the target and wait until I have a better angle on it from another position, but that requires discipline and patience.

[TBone]

26 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

I suspect the right answer is probably to mark the target and wait until I have a better angle on it from another position, but that requires discipline and patience.

That is probably the most prudent thing to do. Or, if you are ABSOLUTELY sure there is no AA threat you can engage from a high altitude. Or if the assets are available in your DCS server, mark it and call artillery or air strike. We did some training for a couple of weeks flying the 58's as FACs for A-10's in Germany. Great fun guiding them into unsuspecting farmers driving their tractor through a field! Would love to get something like that going in DCS one day.

[placsea]

1 hour ago, Floyd1212 said:

Thanks for the write-up!  And I couldn't agree more; down low at the treetops is where the fun is.

I need to do better at being aware of my egress options, and planning accordingly, though.

When I do find myself climbing to higher altitudes it is often to engage a target that is tucked in a valley or on the other side of a small hill, where to engage at a safe distance means a much higher altitude.  What is the recommended tactic in that situation?  Stay low and get closer to engage, or stay at a safe distance and climb higher?  I suspect the right answer is probably to mark the target and wait until I have a better angle on it from another position, but that requires discipline and patience.

Maybe just maybe the SA8 operators will be having lunch or something and won't punish my ill thought out suicidal attack run this time  

[admiki]

10 hours ago, TBone said:

Ugh. Me and my big mouth

I and others did the same for Hind. Promptly "fixed".

[Digitalvole]

Gold dust!

Thank you @TBone for your post.

I’m just properly starting out in the AH64 having had it in the hanger since launch. I’ve always found an abundance of explanations on how to use systems (for any module) but very little on actual tactics. (Especially in the fast jets, I have the feeling they like to keep that stuff hush hush.)

So your post is greatly appreciated.

Reading books about Apaches in Afghanistan, it’s all seems to be flying high. This makes sense for that situation (not much AA) but did leave me wondering how useful attack helicopters would be on a modern battlefield such as Ukraine. This clears all that up for me, though I get the feeling it would still be a very dangerous line of work.

Thanks again

 

[TBone]

15 minutes ago, Digitalvole said:

Reading books about Apaches in Afghanistan, it’s all seems to be flying high. This makes sense for that situation (not much AA) but did leave me wondering how useful attack helicopters would be on a modern battlefield such as Ukraine. This clears all that up for me, though I get the feeling it would still be a very dangerous line of work.

Spot on with the tactics in Afghanistan, biggest threat is small arms and little in the way of cover for a helicopter. Also, in that environment a consideration is brown out from rotor wash when flying low and slow or hovering. Something I'm very familiar with from Iraq. I spent much of my time training in the European theater though, Germany, and it was very similar to what is going on in Ukraine especially since Russia doesn't seem to have progressed much past the Cold War equipment and doctrine, little in the way of an air threat anymore and not much in the way of AA. I think Apaches would thrive in that environment, but I see a day when drones become a less expensive and less risky option to do the same work. One of my favorite things to do was spot and call artillery strikes but that is definitely a job better accomplished by drones these days.

 

We used to joke that the location of the enemy is where the burning wreckage of the Aeroscout is.

[Floyd1212]

Yeah, I much prefer the cover of the trees and hills of the Caucasus map over the flat and barren regions of the Syria map.  The mountainous regions are good though.  I found Cyprus is a great area for helo ops on the Syria map, though.

[Digitalvole]

On 10/1/2022 at 1:32 PM, TBone said:

We used to joke that the location of the enemy is where the burning wreckage of the Aeroscout is.

Balls of steel!

I’m sure we’ve all seen that hind getting a stinger (?) in the face. Poor blokes. They shouldn’t be there but still, uncomfortable viewing.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Digitalvole

[BadgerFly]

Hey TBone!

Wow, thank you so much for sharing your experiences! It's always incredible for a non-military virtual pilot such as myself, who's always dreamed of flying a combat helicopter, to get a glimpse into what it was really like. 

From my limited experience doing SEAD flights with the Ka-50, I very much agree with your strategy of using cover and concealment as far as possible. I have found that even when a nasty SA-19 has you in its sights, using a hill or a building for cover can help to exhaust its supply of ready-to-fire missiles, and when it's reloading you simply pop it with a Vikhr outside of its gun range. 

The first time I flew with a new group on Discord I was No.4 in the flight, and when we got to the AO our flight lead directed the four AH-64s into a hover at 1500ft AGL - felt super exposed and uncomfortable! 

 

For what it's worth: Casmo made a video on the exact same topic around 6 months ago, so it's pretty epic hearing the same thing from two different, credible sources: 

 

[NeedzWD40]

Good writeup! A few other notes:

- The AI will rarely miss with their ATGMs. If you get a missile launched at you, get to solid cover pronto. They have no limitations or constraints outside of LOS and it doesn't matter how much you jink or move, they will hit. Sometimes it's possible to break LOS with trees. You only have seconds to react to a launch as it only takes ~15 seconds for most OPFOR missiles to cross 5km.

- The AI will instantly know your position as soon as you get LOS and are in range. They instantly know how far you are and know exactly where to aim to hit you. This is part of why a BMP-2 is more threatening than a ZSU: the BMP-2 has an ATGM that won't miss and a gun that is incredibly accurate and longer ranged than 23mm, aimed as if it were already cued and guided by radar. It only takes a few seconds for the AI to generate a "lock" to shoot from acquisition. By contrast, it takes an SA-8 about 20 seconds to generate a firing solution.

- All typical modern red DCS MBTs pack ATGMs capable of reaching out to 5km. If you're operating in the presence of T-72s and their upgraded variations, knock them out from beyond 5km. BMP-2s can reach out to 4.5km with their ATGM. Don't press closer than this 5km boundary unless you've got a lot of support and/or cover.

- Learn to love defilade fire. Mark your targets, find a good spot, lob weapons from behind cover. Rockets and cannon are cheap, life is expensive. Use this with buddy lasing as well: get one ship to hang back and lase outside of threat range, then have another ship fire from closer and behind cover. This is an incredibly powerful capability that I rarely see utilized.

[Hotdognz]

Great write up on your experiences and passing that information on here, unfortunately I really dont think it matter in DCS single player or PVE servers as the Ai are pretty lack luster against the AH64 and KA50 as we can sit 8kms from them so you can be at 500, 700 or 1000 feet and still be relatively safe against most of the ground AI in the game, this is based on missions we have flow on our servers, if its a PVP server though yes your advice is great to have and I stay as low as possible.

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Hotdognz

[TBone]

23 hours ago, Hotdognz said:

Great write up on your experiences and passing that information on here, unfortunately I really dont think it matter in DCS single player or PVE servers as the Ai are pretty lack luster against the AH64 and KA50 as we can sit 8kms from them so you can be at 500, 700 or 1000 feet and still be relatively safe against most of the ground AI in the game, this is based on missions we have flow on our servers, if its a PVP server though yes your advice is great to have and I stay as low as possible.

 

 

I do see that as being pretty true, but I think using good tactics can still help survivability in the PvE environment and it is sound tactics so for immersion purpose, it is good practice. For me though, it is waaaaay more fun sneaking and peeking, shooting and scooting. After I get fenced in, I love ingressing  at 110kts and 5ft AGL. Between trees, under wires and bridges, following low ground and dashing across a big clearing to my next piece of cover. Guys that are cruising into the battlefield at anything higher than 100ft are really missing out.

A couple rules of thumb to make your NOE flight as realistic as possible;

Manpads are the Bain of NOE flying, have the CPG scan the tree line ahead of your flight path.

Never follow roads.

Assume all roads have wires.

When you are crossing over power lines, cross over the tower.

When you are going under, cross as close to the tower as possible.

Pairs of trees that are spaced far enough apart to fly between were put there by God for you to fly between.

 

[Hotdognz]

I agree with you Tbone, In the missions I have created for our guys I purposely have put man-pads in our missions to keep the Apaches low and in cover  so they have to sneak about as it should be.

[Avimimus]

The thing that makes me nervous when flying nape-of-the-earth and at speed is the possibility of overrunning an enemy position and having anti-aircraft fire suddenly come from the rear hemisphere (where I can't see it). Flying higher is tempting because it increases the likelihood of identifying enemy positions while still relatively far away.

That said, if I fly even lower... between the trees... it probably isn't as much of a problem?

P.S. Anyone remember Gunship! (flight sim based on a tank simulator engine). The thing I recall from that was that hovering in the same place for two long could allow an armoured car to close a kilometre under tree cover and ambush you... the vehicles were active and responsive in that way. It was also interesting as I ended up always using the gunner position because spotting threats was more important than flying (and the pilot AI was actually pretty good at diving down into cover while popping countermeasures if I gave the order). Intense.

[Swift.]

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

The thing that makes me nervous when flying nape-of-the-earth and at speed is the possibility of overrunning an enemy position and having anti-aircraft fire suddenly come from the rear hemisphere (where I can't see it). Flying higher is tempting because it increases the likelihood of identifying enemy positions while still relatively far away.

That said, if I fly even lower... between the trees... it probably isn't as much of a problem?

That's why you need to match your speed to the situation. Imagine you were a foot soldier worried about coming upon the enemy in the woods. Are you going to sprint full charge through the foliage and hope you can react in time, or are you going to go slow and carefully.

Additionally, get a wingman. Having a second aircraft means you can start providing mutual support to each other (ie looking out for threats from astern) and you can also start employing some high threat movement techniques, ie bounding overwatch (one aircraft stationary and alert whilst the other moves forwards)

[TBone]

What swift said. Also, in game, as far as I know, your acoustic signature is not a factor. So, a manpad for instance, only aquires you when you are "visible" so if you are using cover correctly, fast or slow, it should only be for a few seconds at most which in PvE is not enough time to aquire and shoot. If you take fire from small arms or light armored vehicles, you should be able to break for cover before you get any significant damage. Make note of where it came from and work your way to a safe battle position, NOE, then eliminate the pest.

Situational awareness is key. Know the threat as much as possible, always know where you are in relation to the battlefield, always know your route and plan to use the terrain and aggressive maneuvering even when not in contact, always know the next safe terrain feature you are headed to and where you will go if you take fire. I also set direct to home just before I anticipate contact so I can break for the house asap if needed. You really need to stay way out in front of a helicopter. 

To put my personal tactics another way; I approach the battles pace in a similar way that I do when I clear a structure. Build my SA before I even start my mission. Stop and clear each space from as much distance and cover as possible.  Before entering the next space, know where I'm going to go based on the surrounding structure (corner fed room v center fed etc.)to establish a point of dominance. And, know ahead of time my egress if things go south.

Like Swift said, a wingman vastly improves survivability whether flying or kicking in doors. Unfortunately in single player, an AI helicopter wingman is more dangerous to you than the enemy is!   

 

[M1Combat]

I've been preaching the "Don't stop unless you need to" thing for years.

The first thing most new heli pilots do is start asking "What's the best way to get to a stable hover?"

I always reply "Don't...  a stable hover is the most dangerous kind of hover."  I mean clearly it has it's uses...  but I always try to teach people that they need to work on SA first, moving as effectively as possible in their SA envelope, stay low and learn how to slow down without gaining altitude.  That said...  NOT a real heli pilot here...  but I do have a good number of hours in sim heli's and I've learned a good bit from flaming balls of wreckage...  Mine and theirs :).

[Raptor9]

25 minutes ago, M1Combat said:

I always reply "Don't...  a stable hover is the most dangerous kind of hover."

I always return to the analogy of an attack helicopter as an infantryman or a sniper to explain the concept. As such, if you are in a firefight, you only hold still if you are in a secure position behind cover; you would never just stand still if you were out in the open with a risk of getting shot. The same thing applies to helicopters over the battlefield.

Likewise, you never want to get into a close-range fight with armor forces, even if they don't have air defenses protecting them. It would be like clearing rooms inside a building with a sniper rifle. If you can snipe from a distance outside the range of everyone's pistols and short-range SMGs, that is always preferable. It makes no sense to turn it into a fair fight. Fair fights are for movies and 19th century duels.

Anyone that has played first-person shooter games knows what I'm talking about. Now just apply that methodology to helicopters.

[M1Combat]

^^^  100%

[RodBorza]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:08 PM, TBone said:

Assume all roads have wires.

When you are crossing over power lines, cross over the tower.

When you are going under, cross as close to the tower as possible.

Pairs of trees that are spaced far enough apart to fly between were put there by God for you to fly between.

 

Man, this is gold.

I've just finishes my post graduates studies on Aviation Safety and my final article is about the Night Signaling of Power Lines and the Hazard the Absence of Signaling poses regarding aviation, mainly for helicopters.

During my researches, I found many material from the U.S. Army, and how they are preoccupied with accidents, much of it during the landing phase. What you just described is new to me, and just reinforces how the Army has always been aware and takes much care about wires and collision avoidance with them.

Edited December 12, 2022 by RodBorza

[Derrick006]

Thank you T bones for sharing your experience it definatly help us (me) in doing proper things with apache which is my favorite module.

Unfortunatly i don't hav enough availability to fly with a squadron but i would love to fly with guys that use to fly military copter for real !

 

[BlackJay]

Great write up TBone. I am completely new to DCS and blown away by this system. I’m a former Apache driver and had to honor of flying this aircraft for just over 8 years, including two tours in Afghanistan. Miss it everyday. My wife surprised me with DCS and the 64 using my Quest headset and I was shocked at the detail and how realistic it looked/felt. It was like stepping back home and brought back so many memories. We are working on getting a more useable set up and I am looking forward to seeing what the model can do and how far the developers take it. It would be awesome to have a 58D model in the future for Pink Teams, as well as the fixed rocket steering curser in the near future! Anyways, great to already see another Army Aviator here!

Edited March 11, 2023 by BlackJay