F-14B V Su-27 ACM Guns Only Caucuses Instant Action Mission

[bonesvf103]

ever since they changed the AI I've been having a hard time killing them.  I used to be able to kill the Su-27 with an F-14B guns only in less than 3 minutes.  Now it usually takes 8 minutes before I lose by running out of gas.  I'm constantly offensive, but it seems like the Su-27 never loses energy in a turn and I have to keep burner on to just hold him in my HUD for a gunshot.  When I do get in range, my pipper flies off the bottom of the HUD and is nowhere to be seen because I'm pulling with burner so much to keep the bandit in the HUD for the shot or lead him for the shot.  If I ease up and do lag pursuit then the bandit continues his turn away from me and then we get locked in a stalemate with us being in an infinite turn with neither one ahving an advantage.  If I pull lead I hemorrhage my energy and now have to concentrate on keeping my plane flying.  It's really frustrating especially when the Flanker never loses energy or even sight of you in the clouds.

Any thoughts?  It has been a source of frustration.

v6,

boNes

[Spurts]

Haven't done that mission, but maybe this weekend I will give it a go and record my fight.

[Callsign JoNay]

IMHO the new BFM AI is actually more abysmal than the original AI. It's harder to kill, but flies so strangely. It's so determined into 1C or 2C strategies, and never cashes in angels for angles when it has an advantage. It will just turn in a perfect flat circle endlessly even if it has a 2000ft advantage to cash in on. So you can really cheese it out with low yo-yos.

The jinking is super weird too. It doesn't play with speed or try to force overshoots, it just stays in full AB while it tries to jink endlessly. OP is right that you have to pin the AB and chase it down at 600+ knots while it makes silly turns back and fourth. The hilarious thing is the 27 will actually jink its own wings off if you just stay behind it long enough. It happened to me the other night, and I thought I must've damaged him on one of my earlier snap shots, but then it did it again the very next round without me even shooting at him yet. 

[bonesvf103]

With the exception of him jinking his wings off, I have noticed all of what you have said.  He does do a ton of jinking though!

v6,

boNes

[Spurts]

1 hour ago, Callsign JoNay said:

IMHO the new BFM AI is actually more abysmal than the original AI. It's harder to kill, but flies so strangely. It's so determined into 1C or 2C strategies, and never cashes in angels for angles when it has an advantage. It will just turn in a perfect flat circle endlessly even if it has a 2000ft advantage to cash in on. So you can really cheese it out with low yo-yos.

The jinking is super weird too. It doesn't play with speed or try to force overshoots, it just stays in full AB while it tries to jink endlessly. OP is right that you have to pin the AB and chase it down at 600+ knots while it makes silly turns back and fourth. The hilarious thing is the 27 will actually jink its own wings off if you just stay behind it long enough. It happened to me the other night, and I thought I must've damaged him on one of my earlier snap shots, but then it did it again the very next round without me even shooting at him yet. 

That's not what I experienced, at least not against the F/A-18C. 

[illegal1984]

I would second @Callsign JoNay 

[captain_dalan]

13 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

ever since they changed the AI I've been having a hard time killing them.  I used to be able to kill the Su-27 with an F-14B guns only in less than 3 minutes.  Now it usually takes 8 minutes before I lose by running out of gas.  I'm constantly offensive, but it seems like the Su-27 never loses energy in a turn and I have to keep burner on to just hold him in my HUD for a gunshot.  When I do get in range, my pipper flies off the bottom of the HUD and is nowhere to be seen because I'm pulling with burner so much to keep the bandit in the HUD for the shot or lead him for the shot.  If I ease up and do lag pursuit then the bandit continues his turn away from me and then we get locked in a stalemate with us being in an infinite turn with neither one ahving an advantage.  If I pull lead I hemorrhage my energy and now have to concentrate on keeping my plane flying.  It's really frustrating especially when the Flanker never loses energy or even sight of you in the clouds.

Any thoughts?  It has been a source of frustration.

v6,

boNes

Sounds like a geometry problem. Yes, the AI will enter indefinite 8-9g loops till its wings break off, if its configuration allows it, but in the case of the Flankers, the window from which you can enter the control zone is still fairly large. But you still have to enter it. Remember that old Falcon 3 video by Pete Bonanni? When he talks about the right moment to start pulling? You'll need to figure that one out. The moment you nail it the AI will enter panic mode and start jinking like mad. And then you just shoot him. Forget about the radar gunsight, you don't need it. The AI will jink a lot yes, but always in the same plane, and always right in front of your nose. Just spray a bit before he does. Works every time. Especially with the B. In the A the window is a bit less wide, so better timing is required to enter the turn. Still largely doable. Against light Vipers and Fulcrums though..... much harder, much harder. They will run out of fuel much longer before you do though, so there's that. If you want a gun kill against those (in the A) you ALWAYS go one circle and then hit the vertical, something like extending into rolling scissors from a break or flat scissors. If you are lucky they will happily fly in front of your nose after the first or second break, if not, use the rolling scissors (it confuses the s*it out of them) to enter the control zone, at which point they panic and you apply the same procedure you do against the Flanker. 

Overall, not that much of an improvement from what it used to be, but at least now SOME AI will fight you one circle, which is better then none i guess. So i'll take it. The infinite stamina and energy is tedious though. 

[Sideburns]

7 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Sounds like a geometry problem. Yes, the AI will enter indefinite 8-9g loops till its wings break off, if its configuration allows it, but in the case of the Flankers, the window from which you can enter the control zone is still fairly large. But you still have to enter it. Remember that old Falcon 3 video by Pete Bonanni? When he talks about the right moment to start pulling? You'll need to figure that one out. The moment you nail it the AI will enter panic mode and start jinking like mad. And then you just shoot him. Forget about the radar gunsight, you don't need it. The AI will jink a lot yes, but always in the same plane, and always right in front of your nose. Just spray a bit before he does. Works every time. Especially with the B. In the A the window is a bit less wide, so better timing is required to enter the turn. Still largely doable. Against light Vipers and Fulcrums though..... much harder, much harder. They will run out of fuel much longer before you do though, so there's that. If you want a gun kill against those (in the A) you ALWAYS go one circle and then hit the vertical, something like extending into rolling scissors from a break or flat scissors. If you are lucky they will happily fly in front of your nose after the first or second break, if not, use the rolling scissors (it confuses the s*it out of them) to enter the control zone, at which point they panic and you apply the same procedure you do against the Flanker. 

Overall, not that much of an improvement from what it used to be, but at least now SOME AI will fight you one circle, which is better then none i guess. So i'll take it. The infinite stamina and energy is tedious though. 

Aye, just to highlight one of several good points. The new AI BFM jinking and manoeuvres are now not terrible and really highlight how dated the gunsight on the F14 is, vs say the F16. Thankfully the jinking and manoeuvres can be fairly predictable atm, you can spot moments of minimal vector change but you will need to position your nose ahead of time and rely on the gun boresight a lot more and not solely rely on the radar directed gunsight. Also getting in close can obviously help land the shot, as can spraying a line of bullets over the possible moves the enemy could make.

[draconus]

I tested some IA dogfight missions when BFM AI changes got into DCS (did not test in latest beta) and generally it's better - esp. more jinking to avoid being shot and no longer doing vertical loops (they do flat turns instead but also use some up/down corrections). Some of them did CFIT without reason.

Here's a list of perceived difficulty I remember from fighting in the B:

Su-27 - easy as always (also with A)

F14B, F-15C - put up a fight but doable

F-16, MiG-29 - could not keep up with their turn like at all

MiG-21 - this one got easy

Clouds do not help, esp. in the first break, where the AI knows where we are but we can't see them.

Edited November 22, 2022 by draconus

[=DROOPY=]

I know this topic relates to the F-14, so please excuse me for saying that I'm having similar issues F-18 vs SU-27/MiG-29. Good to know I don't suck *that* bad....

[captain_dalan]

To the OP: 
i know a said the AI always jinked in a single plane which made it very easy to read and thus anticipate and compensate properly, so i wanted to record a short demo on how it can be done. However, someone must have eavesdropped on our conversation, and the latest patch/s seems to have changed that behavior. So now, they are somewhat harder to shoot down, with tendency to jink in more erratic manner. I apologize for the extremely poor handling of the plane in the 2nd hop. I hadn't touched a stick in over 3 weeks and i only had 10ish minutes to record and fly before having to leave the house. The result was so poor, i completely lost feel for my energy state and nearly blacked out. I had to record a 3rd fight as a result, after i got back home. This one was more articulate, though still not to my satisfaction. I don't have time to play DCS any more this weekend, so i hope this 15ish minutes help illustrate what i was trying to say. Cheers, happy weekend and safe flying:
 

 

[IronMike]

Here's another little demonstration. Mind you, I haven't practiced in well over a year, but few points to get across:

Part 1: Gunzo vs SU27. Always, always try to end the fight within 30 seconds. The sooner the better. It won't always work (q.e.d.), but always try. (Caucasus Quickstart Dogfight)

Part 2: Gunzo vs MiG29. If you cannot fly around the 1nm pole out of the bandit's ass, force him to cross your nose for snapshots. Forget about "the perfect shooting position". Just get into any shooting position, however you can. Use everything to your advantage, including terrain. (NTTR Quickstart Constant Peg Gen IV)

Part 3: Heaters vs MiG28. Separation vs no separation: you need to fly around the 1nm pole out of the bandit's ass (or basically the part that is looking at you) to get a good shot, both gunzo or heaters, but especially with heaters. Don't force the turn, if it puts you in a bad shooting position: compare 1st shot (no bueno) vs 2nd shot (bueno). (NTTR Quickstart Fox 2)

Part 4: Heaters vs MiG28. setup for a good separation from the merge, kill within 30 seconds, aka how it is done proper. (NTTR Quickstart Fox 2)

Corner speed is not always the best speed. But know how to get from slow to fast to slow quickly, when needed. Don't corner yourself in a speed range. A lot of folks seem to care about looking good or achieving this ideal kind of BFM, perfect turns, scissors this, yoyos that, yada. All I care is about shooting the guy as quick as I can, how it looks does not matter. Do what you have to, full stop. One thing however is very important, always important: try to keep your vector on the bandit, always, as best as you can. That's what that line in the canopy helps you with tremendously. Many don't do that. And so many folks I watch forget the most important thing: Squeeze. That. Trigger. Practice snapshots, don't wait for that perfect firing solution. Practice shooting blind, without lock, leading blind, without lock. Put pressure on your adversary, not on yourself.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by IronMike

[Spurts]

3 hours ago, IronMike said:

 Put pressure on your adversary, not on yourself.

 

 

 

And the ability of the Tomcat to pile on the AoA and to show pure/lead pursuit from almost anywhere across a circle puts a lot of pressure on them.

[bonesvf103]

CaptDalan,

 

Thanks for your efforts.  I didn't see any AI updates in the last patch and that mini one from the other day either.  So their behavior changing since the last major patch with the AI changes seems unlikely.  The keyword being SEEMS.  There are lots of times when I felt 100% confident that the bandits had changed the way they flew after a patch, but then changed again afterwards even though there was no future patch.  I theorized that maybe small updates were being pushed without us knowing, what another collegue of mine here called "stealth patches" but tons of people would tell me that's just crazy talk.  But it just seems that way sometimes.  So I wouldn't doubt what you said.

 

Now IronMike:  thanks for your input too.  I admit I do try to get that perfect shot where it's a tracking shot, pipper on the bandit, and I rarely do any snapshots.  But before the patch, this worked just fine for me.  NOw, it's impossible, the behavior is how I described in the OP.  I have gotten some killsm but it has been like you said--blind or snapshot, and only after about 8 minutes of frustration.  I'd barely make it to shore with some gas left.  But back to the fight, yes, I can get a kill if he Su-27 makes a rare error and doesn't break, allowing my pipper to get on him.  Or, I lead him so much that my pipper is not even on the HUD but I take the shot anyway (what you called a blind shot) out of frustration, and it hits.  Or, as often happens, after about 7 or 8 minutes the bandit suddenly becomes docile and flies away without any hard maneuvering.  He may try to climb and maneuver a bit if I go after him but not as hard as he had in the previous 7 minutes.  I kill him, but it feels lackluster.  Wold I take more blind shots or snapshots?  Maybe, but then I feel like Im wasting ammo and what good is it if I finally line up a shot and my gun is empty?  I usually get the geometry right but as they are slowly sliding into my HUD, they are also reversing their turn and going back to one circle.  If I lead they try to force the overshoot or I get there and I'm out of energy, or more often I have a great tracking shot and there's no pipper.  The pipper itself has at times swirled around, then disappeared then instantly reappeared in a totally different spot in the HUD.  ALso other times if I run out of energy or see that I am, I often go full burner and dive down in a very deep low yoyo, but my airspeed climbs back up stupidly slow.  It doesn't seem to make any sense that a plane as heavy as the Tomcat with nose down in Zone V can accelerate so slow.  It feels like it's against the law of gravity.

I have flown the other ones with missiles.  Constant Peg, DACT V Mirages in Normandy, Fox 2s against F-5s.  Normally I kill them within a few minutes and that's fine.  But anytime going to guns only it's a different story.

I'll look at IronMike and Capt's videos ASAP, I want to know how other people fly it now post-patch.  Thanks for your videos guys!

 

v6,

boNes

 

[bonesvf103]

Well I watched your video IronMike and I ahve to say I am flying pretty much the same as you in the same regime.  I did getr a few kills but they were all snapshot kills or blind hots kills, which felt more like really lucky pot shots.  I dunno, I feel like when doing this everything I've learned about ACM and geometry just goes out the window and what's the point of all that theory if it just comes down to a lucky shot?  Maybe that's the way it is now, but it feels so unnatrual and contradictory to actually flying and fighting "by the book."  It is still very frustrating to me, especially when it always always ALWAYS seems like the Su-27 can hold his turn and hold it and hold it and never friggin lose energy.

And can you better explain the concept of the 1 nm pole sticking out of his ass?

Thanks.

v6,

boNes

[IronMike]

5 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

Well I watched your video IronMike and I ahve to say I am flying pretty much the same as you in the same regime.  I did getr a few kills but they were all snapshot kills or blind hots kills, which felt more like really lucky pot shots.  I dunno, I feel like when doing this everything I've learned about ACM and geometry just goes out the window and what's the point of all that theory if it just comes down to a lucky shot?  Maybe that's the way it is now, but it feels so unnatrual and contradictory to actually flying and fighting "by the book."  It is still very frustrating to me, especially when it always always ALWAYS seems like the Su-27 can hold his turn and hold it and hold it and never friggin lose energy.

And can you better explain the concept of the 1 nm pole sticking out of his ass?

Thanks.

v6,

boNes

The Su-27 very much can be beaten by geometry and also the MiG etc can lose their energy if you are patient enough. By the book, means what book exactly? 30 seconds is your ideal window, which means your main goal is to win the merge and shoot them right there and then. After the 30 seconds your chances to win decrease dramatically. Especially with human opponents. I forgot the calculus, but it is quite dramatic. In the end, your job is to shoot the guy, not to display some geometry. And, ofc, knowing how to do this or that, especially in PvP, helps a ton to get into a favorable position, flip a position, etc etc. But you're still not there to display an airshow, but to shoot the guy. However you can. The AI now just pulls too hard too consistently for long periods of time, inhumanly so, hence insisting on some geometry is pointless. I leave the fight with a) enough fuel and b) almost 2/3rds of gun ammo left, despite snapshots. Snapshots are super important, especially when flying against humans. The big difference with Ai and humans is that a human will always try to pull the nose on you, when you come head to head again, even if he sacrifices for that, but on a nose to nose you will have ammo flying your way. The AI, when shot at first, will just not do that, which can be exploited.

 

The 1nm pole: Imagine the aircraft is set on a 1nm stick. In most cases you need to fly around that stick first to get into a good shooting position. A lot of folks want to just get nose on and force it, getting in a non favorable position. That's just a mental/visual aid, which a Gripen pilot told me who got that from his BFM instructor, an oldschool Viggen guy. Just imagine that stick, and try to fly around it first. But sometimes, like with the AI pulling a constant 9Gs or similar shenanigans, that is not really possible. Hence you need to be able to do snapshots well. Snapshots are not luck, it is something you need to practice. Flying geometry is nice, being able to hold your turnrate is something one needs to know anyway, but if it doesn't serve you to kill the guy, it is worthless, too. And btw, if you want to fly BFM PvP, practicing against the AI is a very bad thing. All my advice here is predominantly meant for how to beat the AI as is, not on how to develop a skillset in human vs human BFM. But in parts, it applies there, too, ofc. Do what works, not what someone told you one should do.

 

Finally, explain a bit more what regime you mean, cause I showed you 4 different ones. (I would also carefully suggest, if it takes you 8 minutes to kill the flanker from the IA mission, it is not the same regime, it should never take you that long.) Which is the whole point, to be flexible to go from a sustained turn to instantenious to forcing the angles to creating separation, etc.. as needed. The bottom line of this remains: the AI is still extremely easy to kill, because it isn't as flexible as you can be, while a human opponent can be exactly that and turn it on your head.

EDIT: One more thing that slipped my mind: going from slow to fast and vice versa: it can be done very quickly, but you need to manage your pull. There is a technique, which I call simply "fapping" the stick, lol, and it works basically both ways: if I want to gain speed, I go from pull -> release -> pull -> release, which works also if you want to pull more G without bleeding off speed, which goes a bit like pull -> increase -> ease off to (initial) pull -> increase -> ease off to a bit more pull -> increase -> ease of to yet a bit more pull than before -> increase ... gently. Try to practice that quickly going from 150 to 250 to 350 to 450 at a constant between 4 and 6 G (choose one and hold it) for the first, and for the second train holding around corner speed while going 3G to 4G to 5G to 6G to 7G while not losing corner speed. For me both these skills do much more than geometry. Also against humans.

Edited November 21, 2022 by IronMike

[IronMike]

Here's another one for you @bonesvf103 - in an F-14A against F-18 AI, set to Ace. I'll leave that uncommented, and you tell me what you see what I did and what I used against it.
 

 

 

[The_Tau]

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

EDIT: One more thing that slipped my mind: going from slow to fast and vice versa: it can be done very quickly, but you need to manage your pull. There is a technique, which I call simply "fapping" the stick, lol, and it works basically both ways: if I want to gain speed, I go from pull -> release -> pull -> release, which works also if you want to pull more G without bleeding off speed, which goes a bit like pull -> increase -> ease off to (initial) pull -> increase -> ease off to pull, etc etc... Try to practice that quickly going from 150 to 250 to 350 to 450 at a constant between 4 and 6 G (choose one and hold it) for the first, and for the second train holding around corner speed while going 3G to 4G to 5G to 6G to 7G while not losing corner speed. For me both these skills do much more than geometry. Also against humans.

 

Awesome tips, and while we at it I will shamelessly exploit it  

Any tips on stick movements while in vertical in a way to keep speed? Is aim to make perfect vertical loop? So ease off on pull at top of circle and in dive to gain speed?

[IronMike]

13 minutes ago, The_Tau said:

Awesome tips, and while we at it I will shamelessly exploit it  

Any tips on stick movements while in vertical in a way to keep speed? Is aim to make perfect vertical loop? So ease off on pull at top of circle and in dive to gain speed?

Difficult to say, depending on what you want to achieve. Usually I like to keep it very steady, very calm, avoid roll input during the loop, and pull through, because if you ease off too early, before being through the turn, you can easily end up in a very unfavorable position, having to roll out, losing sight of the bandit below you, etc. Then ofc it depends if you want to really pull through, or level and stay up. (See the vid I posted above against the F18). It also depends a bit on how you entered the loop. Which is almost more important, because if you are not bringing enough energy, you may also end up in a very unfavorable position, no matter how you handle your stick. So this deserves the most consideration imo, then you need to know what kind of loop you want (how wide, how narrow, if vertical or a bit diagonal etc), and try to lock that in. That comes with practice ofc, it is not like I give these things a lot of active thought. Usually I think about what kind of separation from the bandit I want to achieve (if I know he has not the energy to follow, or else that kind of stunt can be very deadly - very different for example doing something like that against an F18 or an F16). But holding it steady until you are either through, or level, whichever you want, is important, and ofc, if you notice it is too wide and you have excess energy, pull a bit more, and vice versa, but gently, and on the pitch line. If you add roll, that can very much screw up what you set out to do. Even if you set out to do like an octagonal roll, or say a diagonal loop if you like, keep on the pitch axis you setup at the start, and try to avoid roll input until you are done with your maneuver. If I have enough separation at the end, and the bandit not enough energy to follow, then I am also much less concerned with what speed I end up on top, because I can get it back fairly quickly both either by levelling or pulling inverted. If the bandit has enough energy, a loop as mentioned can be a very bad idea in the first place. Then half circle climbing and half circle descending may be more favorable, bleeding (in the climbing half) and gaining (in the descending half) energy as needed (by both adjusting your climb and descend rate).

Edited November 21, 2022 by IronMike

[Spurts]

While I did not record the fight, here is a Tacview of another F/A-18 Ace AI BFM set.  It isn't my best flying because I was trying something different with my stick input setup, but it shows how the Tomcat gives the tools for absolute contempt of the "2-circle rate fight".  I like @IronMikevid, using the vertical to just wait for the right time to pounce.  That tactic would have defeated what I did in this Tacview.

Tacview-20221120-122112-DCS-AI test.txt.acmi

[bonesvf103]

4 hours ago, IronMike said:

 

[quote]The Su-27 very much can be beaten by geometry and also the MiG etc can lose their energy if you are patient enough. By the book, means what book exactly? 30 seconds is your ideal window, which means your main goal is to win the merge and shoot them right there and then. After the 30 seconds your chances to win decrease dramatically. Especially with human opponents. I forgot the calculus, but it is quite dramatic. In the end, your job is to shoot the guy, not to display some geometry. And, ofc, knowing how to do this or that, especially in PvP, helps a ton to get into a favorable position, flip a position, etc etc. But you're still not there to display an airshow, but to shoot the guy. However you can. The AI now just pulls too hard too consistently for long periods of time, inhumanly so, hence insisting on some geometry is pointless. I leave the fight with a) enough fuel and b) almost 2/3rds of gun ammo left, despite snapshots. Snapshots are super important, especially when flying against humans. The big difference with Ai and humans is that a human will always try to pull the nose on you, when you come head to head again, even if he sacrifices for that, but on a nose to nose you will have ammo flying your way. The AI, when shot at first, will just not do that, which can be exploited.[/quote]

What I mean by "by the book" is the way I prosecute the engagement based on what I've studied and what I've learned from fighter pilots (reading articles by them or speaking with them).  In the merge, I go in with no less than 450 kias.  In these cases I won't shoot in the merge per the ROE in the briefing (although after the last few patches the bandits ignore that rule).  I turn toward the bandit and immediately try to get on his tail and read his "bubble".  When he breaks, I make sure I have enough energy to turn with him, and I wait until I get line of sight explosion and fly to the point about where he broke before I make my turn.  I will then turn, putting my life vector on him, leaving AB on to push me through the turn.  Usually the only roll input at this point that I put in is for that initial turn.  After that, I pull ever so slightly back on the stick and hold it in that position.  This usually gets geometry to solve the problem and pulls the bandit into my HUD and into my pipper for a tracking shot but with the last few patches, now the bandit just keeps sustaining his turn apparently without losing energy while mine bleeds away and my pipper flies off the bottom of the HUD as I turn in high speed or pull a little further to keep up.  If I do need roll input, I use the rudders.  But even then, I can't hold the turn forever and I then have to low yo-yo to get energy back, but it doesn't come back fast enough and by then he is already reversing his turn to go 1 circle.

I'm glad you mentioned that the AI pulls too hard too consistently for long periods of time.  That's what I feel he is doing too, and I'm glad I'm just not being crazy for thinking so.

[quote]

The 1nm pole: Imagine the aircraft is set on a 1nm stick. In most cases you need to fly around that stick first to get into a good shooting position. A lot of folks want to just get nose on and force it, getting in a non favorable position. That's just a mental/visual aid, which a Gripen pilot told me who got that from his BFM instructor, an oldschool Viggen guy. Just imagine that stick, and try to fly around it first. But sometimes, like with the AI pulling a constant 9Gs or similar shenanigans, that is not really possible. Hence you need to be able to do [/quote]

I can imagine that stick, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by "fly around it."  Do you mean to never close the distance so that you are within reach of the stick, or do you mean to go out of plane with the stick, or something like that?  I think that when I wait until LOS explosion and then break at the point where he breaks, that that is flying around the stick, but I'm not sure.

 

And again your mention of the AI...it seems to me that this patch has taken the already existent problem of AI UFOs and instead of fixing them or making it more real, they upgraded their UFO abilities.  Which really makes flying against them unrealistic and ruins the correct technique as you either no longer fly them or radically change them to match a radically changed unrealistic AI behavior.

[quote]snapshots well. Snapshots are not luck, it is something you need to practice. Flying geometry is nice, being able to hold your turnrate is something one needs to know anyway, but if it doesn't serve you to kill the guy, it is worthless, too. And btw, if you want to fly BFM PvP, practicing against the AI is a very bad thing. All my advice here is predominantly meant for how to beat the AI as is, not on how to develop a skillset in human vs human BFM. But in parts, it applies there, too, ofc. Do what works, not what someone told you one should do.[/quote]

Yes, like in the above, I feel like all true BFM and ACM are now worthless in the sim with this AI even though IRL they wouldn't be.  I admit I don't do too much against humans, but when I do, I usually can kill them pretty quickly (or get killed pretty quickly) but they don't fly with UFO abilities.

 

And, I also want to say I really appreciate your advice and it sounds like others here do too!

 

 

[quote]Finally, explain a bit more what regime you mean, cause I showed you 4 different ones. (I would also carefully suggest, if it takes you 8 minutes to kill the flanker from the IA mission, it is not the same regime, it should never take you that long.) Which is the whole point, to be flexible to go from a sustained turn to instantenious to forcing the angles to creating separation, etc.. as needed. The bottom line of this remains: the AI is still extremely easy to kill, because it isn't as flexible as you can be, while a human opponent can be exactly that and turn it on your head.[/quote]

Yes I suppose I could have been more specific.  Primarily I was looking at bout 1 because that was guns only against the Su-27, though I did look at the other ones with missiles also.  You enter the merge the same as I do, high speed, deny turning room, and post merge you turn and get nose on like I do also.  Hearing Jester's callouts, we both have the same amounts of energy and hold the same speeds in the turn although  I try to avoid getting slower than 330 whereas alot of the times you are at around 250 in the turn.  I also notice your nose dips alot up and down and there is a lot of buffeting from it,  which I think is your "fapping" the stick as you explained later.  I don't really do that, but I'm also always trying to smoothly bring him into my gun pipper.  Now where I get baffled is through all this buffeting and nose dipping, you get off a shot and the pipper is either not even there (blind shot) or it's someplace else and you get good hits.  Pipper aside, even the buffeting would be enough to ruin my aim, that, and being blind.  Your kills amaze me.  I also see that he goes 1 circle on you alot too and the way you react to/counter it is how I do too.

 

So in short alot of what you do is very similar to what I do hence why I said we are in the same regime--except you kill him way more and way faster than I do.  BTW the first 2 kills I got this way I did in about 4 minutes the first time and 3 in the next, but it was subsequent ones where 8 minutes later I either ran out of gas or rounds, and in rare cases killed him but ended up with 30 or less rounds and an emergency landing at Sochi.

[quote]EDIT: One more thing that slipped my mind: going from slow to fast and vice versa: it can be done very quickly, but you need to manage your pull. There is a technique, which I call simply "fapping" the stick, lol, and it works basically both ways: if I want to gain speed, I go from pull -> release -> pull -> release, which works also if you want to pull more G without bleeding off speed, which goes a bit like pull -> increase -> ease off to (initial) pull -> increase -> ease off to a bit more pull -> increase -> ease of to yet a bit more pull than before -> increase ... gently. Try to practice that quickly going from 150 to 250 to 350 to 450 at a constant between 4 and 6 G (choose one and hold it) for the first, and for the second train holding around corner speed while going 3G to 4G to 5G to 6G to 7G while not losing corner speed. For me both these skills do much more than geometry. Also against humans.[/quote]

This must be what is happening when I see your nose drop up and down, but with alot of buffeting.  I do a version of that too from time to time, but usually it's to "reset" the turn.  I will let go of the stick in the turn and quickly "start over" by grabbing the stick and doing my slight pull and hold.

All of my techniques used to work all of the time but now it has just been a source of frustration for me and admittedly I wrote my last post fresh from that frustration so please forgive me.

I will try your stick fapping and will also look at the Hornet video you posted.

Thanks much again.

v6,

boNes

[bonesvf103]

Oh, also, you think it is possible to do a video of a gunzo engagement with the input display on (right ctrl-enter) so I can see what your stick/throttle/rudder movements are?

Thanks.

v6,

boNes

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

What I mean by "by the book" is the way I prosecute the engagement based on what I've studied and what I've learned from fighter pilots (reading articles by them or speaking with them).  In the merge, I go in with no less than 450 kias.  In these cases I won't shoot in the merge per the ROE in the briefing (although after the last few patches the bandits ignore that rule).  I turn toward the bandit and immediately try to get on his tail and read his "bubble".  When he breaks, I make sure I have enough energy to turn with him, and I wait until I get line of sight explosion and fly to the point about where he broke before I make my turn.  I will then turn, putting my life vector on him, leaving AB on to push me through the turn.  Usually the only roll input at this point that I put in is for that initial turn.  After that, I pull ever so slightly back on the stick and hold it in that position.  This usually gets geometry to solve the problem and pulls the bandit into my HUD and into my pipper for a tracking shot but with the last few patches, now the bandit just keeps sustaining his turn apparently without losing energy while mine bleeds away and my pipper flies off the bottom of the HUD as I turn in high speed or pull a little further to keep up.  If I do need roll input, I use the rudders.  But even then, I can't hold the turn forever and I then have to low yo-yo to get energy back, but it doesn't come back fast enough and by then he is already reversing his turn to go 1 circle.

I'm glad you mentioned that the AI pulls too hard too consistently for long periods of time.  That's what I feel he is doing too, and I'm glad I'm just not being crazy for thinking so.

I can imagine that stick, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by "fly around it."  Do you mean to never close the distance so that you are within reach of the stick, or do you mean to go out of plane with the stick, or something like that?  I think that when I wait until LOS explosion and then break at the point where he breaks, that that is flying around the stick, but I'm not sure.

 

And again your mention of the AI...it seems to me that this patch has taken the already existent problem of AI UFOs and instead of fixing them or making it more real, they upgraded their UFO abilities.  Which really makes flying against them unrealistic and ruins the correct technique as you either no longer fly them or radically change them to match a radically changed unrealistic AI behavior.

Yes, like in the above, I feel like all true BFM and ACM are now worthless in the sim with this AI even though IRL they wouldn't be.  I admit I don't do too much against humans, but when I do, I usually can kill them pretty quickly (or get killed pretty quickly) but they don't fly with UFO abilities.

 

And, I also want to say I really appreciate your advice and it sounds like others here do too!

 

 

Yes I suppose I could have been more specific.  Primarily I was looking at bout 1 because that was guns only against the Su-27, though I did look at the other ones with missiles also.  You enter the merge the same as I do, high speed, deny turning room, and post merge you turn and get nose on like I do also.  Hearing Jester's callouts, we both have the same amounts of energy and hold the same speeds in the turn although  I try to avoid getting slower than 330 whereas alot of the times you are at around 250 in the turn.  I also notice your nose dips alot up and down and there is a lot of buffeting from it,  which I think is your "fapping" the stick as you explained later.  I don't really do that, but I'm also always trying to smoothly bring him into my gun pipper.  Now where I get baffled is through all this buffeting and nose dipping, you get off a shot and the pipper is either not even there (blind shot) or it's someplace else and you get good hits.  Pipper aside, even the buffeting would be enough to ruin my aim, that, and being blind.  Your kills amaze me.  I also see that he goes 1 circle on you alot too and the way you react to/counter it is how I do too.

 

So in short alot of what you do is very similar to what I do hence why I said we are in the same regime--except you kill him way more and way faster than I do.  BTW the first 2 kills I got this way I did in about 4 minutes the first time and 3 in the next, but it was subsequent ones where 8 minutes later I either ran out of gas or rounds, and in rare cases killed him but ended up with 30 or less rounds and an emergency landing at Sochi.

This must be what is happening when I see your nose drop up and down, but with alot of buffeting.  I do a version of that too from time to time, but usually it's to "reset" the turn.  I will let go of the stick in the turn and quickly "start over" by grabbing the stick and doing my slight pull and hold.

All of my techniques used to work all of the time but now it has just been a source of frustration for me and admittedly I wrote my last post fresh from that frustration so please forgive me.

I will try your stick fapping and will also look at the Hornet video you posted.

Thanks much again.

v6,

boNes

The thing is, yes the AI right now is sometimes weirdly unrealistic, the worst offender is the F16, pulling 8-9Gs indefinitely, above 500 kts, indefinitely... The rest however is not so bad. But either way, it should not discourage you from kicking their ass nonetheless, it only has a positive upside of learning something, of being forced to think out of the box, etc. See the video below (sorry I recorded it earlier today before your input display request, but it would not add much anyway, because you have the right idea already, the nose coming up and down is exactly what I described with "fapping for speed".) The AI F16, in all my, dunno around 5 tries, never ever managed to fire a single shot. You win every single time against the F16, by it either running out of gas, or running into the ground. That 9 G and 500+ kts cannot be transformed into a shot, unless you screw up. Is that a satisfying win? No. But it is a win. You laugh at it in Tomcat fuel tanks lol. What I did in the video though was one step further, step outside of the box, I found you do get a gun kill, if you force an overshoot with its tremendous superhuman pulls and speeds, hehe. May not work always, but it does quite often, and as mentioned, even if it doesn't, all you need to do is hang in there until it runs out of fuel. That to me is really bugged BFM behavior by the AI F-16 (not all AI is that bad), and some things got better, some got worse across the bord ... as usually is. I can only imagine how difficult it is to program a very realistic AI BFM behavior, and the GFM will likely be another step forward, step by step. The big takeaway however is: do not ever use AI, bugs, etc as an excuse, but as an incentive to develop your skills further. For example snapshots.

Why I hit those snapshot hits? Years of training exactly that, sniping in other games where sniping is realistic (Arma ACE) etc, in short: developing a feel to lead a bullet with or without a scope, and now I can cash it in. Gun pipper? Overrated. Additionally years of flying controlled precision flight, trying to be within +/-5 feet when flying level, as well as trying to keep bank attitudes within +/-5°, pitch, G pulls, speeds in turns, etc etc etc... religously. Even so you can very well see that I cannot hit all snapshots, that I cannot turn the nose precisely in all wobbly buffety creeky situations - but that does not discourage me from trying. But in the end all that comes together. All that said: I am by far not a BFM pro compared to others, but I can hold my own and best even guys like Stugey, when I put my head to it. But it's not that important to me. Most and foremost I just try to enjoy my time in the pit, and the new AI is a new challenge, which I find refreshing, hence I started to explore a bit again now - thanks to your thread. Such changes are always an incentive to cheer up, sleeves up, and crack a nut. The reward is obvious.

PS: If you notice, when the F16 overhsoots, it does so with a sonic boom - which actually let me cheer out loud there a bit I have to admit, and this goes also to all the "performance complaints" I keep hearing so often. In an F-14A, of all things, I was completely able to catch up to it more or less in an instant, out of 360 ish kts. Eat that, pesky little Vipers.

 

 

F-14A vs Ace F-16 AI.zip.acmi

Edited November 21, 2022 by IronMike

[bonesvf103]

Again thanks IronMike I really appreciate your advice and they are more encouraging than you know.  Yes, even if they run out of gas, a kill is a kill, right?

 

I'll check your new vids out asap and hopefully learn something new from it.

v6,

boNes

[IronMike]

2 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

Again thanks IronMike I really appreciate your advice and they are more encouraging than you know.  Yes, even if they run out of gas, a kill is a kill, right?

 

I'll check your new vids out asap and hopefully learn something new from it.

v6,

boNes

My pleasure. There are certainly folks who can give better advice on BFM than me, but I hope it helps at least a little bit. Happy shooting!