Ever bought an aircraft you did not fly at all?

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, jonfog said:

So you have to build your own training missions in the ME and spending time on this, means there is less time for actual flying...

Maybe … but not really, because when you edit a training mission you end up test flying it dozens of times … you cant help but learn the plane completely. For me, editing a training mission is actually like a game inside a game … and I enjoy both. 

[Beirut]

7 hours ago, jonfog said:

 

So you have to build your own training missions in the ME and spending time on this, means there is less time for actual flying...

 

That's a big part of the fun for me. And it absolutely is flying. It's learning how to get better and better with the plane. I don't see the value/fun starting only at proficiency. I have a great time figuring out how to do things in different ways in my own ME missions with different weapons and systems. Some of the best fun I've had in DCS was not in being proficient, but in learning to be proficient.

That first glorious "F*** yeah!" when you figure out how to pull off some high-tech evil and get that big well placed "KABOOM!" as a reward. 

 

[jonfog]

6 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

That's a big part of the fun for me. And it absolutely is flying. It's learning how to get better and better with the plane. I don't see the value/fun starting only at proficiency. I have a great time figuring out how to do things in different ways in my own ME missions with different weapons and systems. Some of the best fun I've had in DCS was not in being proficient, but in learning to be proficient.

That first glorious "F*** yeah!" when you figure out how to pull off some high-tech evil and get that big well placed "KABOOM!" as a reward. 

 

Yes that's what I'm trying to get at - the gap from going from "Training missions" to "be proficient" is the problem. I would like to have a basic flight campaing that guides you through learning  the aircraft in a structured and realistic way. But since I'm no pilot I could only guess at how to do this (obviously start-up, take-off, landing and shutdown would be one of the first missions). Since there are a lot of real pilots flying in DCS there should be a lot of knowledge about this.

As it is now all buyers of a module have to figure out a new module by themselves and investing a lot of time in the ME. I would gladly pay the price of around $10 to have a real pilot make a "basic" campaign that teaches me how to take-off, navigate, land, ILS, take fuel from a tanker, etc. in good weather, overcast and bad weather. Then repeat everything at night.

I could do this in the ME, but each mission I create become boring very fast - I'm the only living person in the world where nothing else is going on. If I try to insert som variation into my missions I quickly run into struggling with the ME instead of flying.

So instead of flying 200h in my new module I spend 150h in the ME, get bored of my own lack lack of progress because I don't fly enough, and then a NEW module comes along and I hit the "BUY" button ...

[draconus]

6 hours ago, jonfog said:

So instead of flying 200h in my new module I spend 150h in the ME, get bored of my own lack lack of progress because I don't fly enough, and then a NEW module comes along and I hit the "BUY" button ...

These are all your decisions. Basics are in training missions. Details are in the manual. To get better you practice. That means a lot of repetitions of the same drill. You don't need to buy any module to become great pilot. Maybe you just like new toys.

[Beirut]

6 hours ago, jonfog said:

Yes that's what I'm trying to get at - the gap from going from "Training missions" to "be proficient" is the problem. I would like to have a basic flight campaing that guides you through learning  the aircraft in a structured and realistic way. But since I'm no pilot I could only guess at how to do this (obviously start-up, take-off, landing and shutdown would be one of the first missions). Since there are a lot of real pilots flying in DCS there should be a lot of knowledge about this.

As it is now all buyers of a module have to figure out a new module by themselves and investing a lot of time in the ME. I would gladly pay the price of around $10 to have a real pilot make a "basic" campaign that teaches me how to take-off, navigate, land, ILS, take fuel from a tanker, etc. in good weather, overcast and bad weather. Then repeat everything at night.

I could do this in the ME, but each mission I create become boring very fast - I'm the only living person in the world where nothing else is going on. If I try to insert som variation into my missions I quickly run into struggling with the ME instead of flying.

So instead of flying 200h in my new module I spend 150h in the ME, get bored of my own lack lack of progress because I don't fly enough, and then a NEW module comes along and I hit the "BUY" button ...

 

Maybe it's a question of managing expectations. I have a bunch of planes and choppers but I only fly a few of them "well". I enjoy them all, but I don't know how to operate them all to the same degree. I've barely scratched the surface of the Tomcat and Apache, but I still enjoy flying them because they're cool and I can do a few fun things with them. At the other end are modules like the Harrier and Hornet and Ka-50 where I can actually do some cool stuff with the systems and enjoy much more of what the plane offers. I guess it depends on which plane you really like. For me, I like the Hornet so I learn the Hornet.

 

I'm sure there are some who can handle the A-10C and the Tomcat and the Apache and.... and... and mange the systems really well. Not me. So I manage my expectations and I have what fun I can up the the point where my brain shuts off. 

 

For the moment, I'm messing with the Hornet and enjoying getting fancy with it. But as soon as the F-15E comes out, everything else goes in the hangar and I'll be locked into that thing for a while. I really like the F-15 so I think I'll be able to get my brain to handle a fair amount of the systems. On the other hand I have no great love for the Phantom, so even if I get it just to enjoy some flying because Heatblur makes amazing planes, I'll never learn it to its potential.

 

Fly what you love. The rest will fall into place.

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, Beirut said:

I'm sure there are some who can handle the A-10C and the Tomcat and the Apache and.... and... and mange the systems really well. Not me.

 

Me neither, but I love variety ... so what I do is dedicate to each aircraft (almost) exclusively for a lapse of a few months, until I fell like I've really learnt it well, only then repeating the cycle with another aircraft. At the moment I'm fully dedicated to the Mirage F1 and hope that Razbam will still take some time before bringing the F-15E, so I can finish with the F1 and then move onto the 15E 

 

[Beirut]

33 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Me neither, but I love variety ... so what I do is dedicate to each aircraft (almost) exclusively for a lapse of a few months, until I fell like I've really learnt it well, only then repeating the cycle with another aircraft. At the moment I'm fully dedicated to the Mirage F1 and hope that Razbam will still take some time before bringing the F-15E, so I can finish with the F1 and then move onto the 15E 

 

 

You're definitely more disciplined than me. I tend to switch around more often. 

 

On the plus side, if I'm ever tempted to buy a new module I'm not sure of, I just load up the A-10C, come to terms with the truth that I know so little about the systems, and it's like I have a brand new plane all over again. I've done that several times. If you have the memory of a goldfish like I do, the  A-10C is the gift that keeps on giving.  

[sthompson]

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Me neither, but I love variety ... so what I do is dedicate to each aircraft (almost) exclusively for a lapse of a few months, until I fell like I've really learnt it well, only then repeating the cycle with another aircraft. At the moment I'm fully dedicated to the Mirage F1 and hope that Razbam will still take some time before bringing the F-15E, so I can finish with the F1 and then move onto the 15E 

 

That's how I approach it too. Currently working on the MiG-19, which I purchased a long time ago, but then never tried until recently. But after reading the manual, Chuck's Guide, and going through the training exercises I'm finding a lot of unfixed bugs in the module, training missions, and included campaign. (The campaign is essentially unflyable because of comms that don't work.) Plus essentially no other SP content available either from the community or Razbam. So I'm finding it to be a bit of a disappointment. Frankly the module feels unfinished and abandoned, which makes me reluctant to buy any more from them.

 

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, sthompson said:

... Currently working on the MiG-19.... essentially no other SP content available either from the community or Razbam. So I'm finding it to be a bit of a disappointment.

 

I have to agree with you, and it is a sad situation .. I enjoy cold war aircrafts and truly wanted to enjoy the MiG-19, so as part of my learning of the type I edited a series of practice missions:

 

but quickly found bugs with the control bindings which precluded me from properly configuring my Hotas to handle the radio dials and gunsight adjustments, so I couldn't continue editing attack missions with it ... I reported the bugs properly, but most were not corrected and so after a couple of months I got fed up with the aircraft and moved on onto another type.

 

1 hour ago, sthompson said:

Frankly the module feels unfinished and abandoned, which makes me reluctant to buy any more from them.

 

Well, on my case I have purchased every product that Razbam has released, including the South Atlantic map, and I'm generally satisfied with most of them ... in particular both the Harrier and the Mirage 2000 are now very enjoyable DCS modules .. the MiG-19 is the only one that I wouldn't endorse. I understand that the MiG-23 is being made by the same developer that did the -19 and so I will mst likely not purchase it until I have read other's reviews or it's available for free trial.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Rudel_chw

[jonfog]

20 hours ago, draconus said:

These are all your decisions. Basics are in training missions. Details are in the manual. To get better you practice. That means a lot of repetitions of the same drill. You don't need to buy any module to become great pilot. Maybe you just like new toys.

Yes I like new toys. That's what keeps ED alive and kicking!

Regarding training missions they are somewhat random in their content.

For instance:

A-10C: There's no training mission for working with a JTAC. And that's really a key skill with the A10-C

F/A-18C: There's no training mission on how to employ the Maverick.

Third party modules often have some triggers that just makes you sit there wondering what your're supposed to do.

If the training missions were separated with "introduction" (all the talk) and "training" (were the how-to is in the mission briefing or kneeboard) it would be better. 

As a VR user with a memory of a snail I can't go back and forth to the manual. I need a very limited training mission that just covers one topic (say drop dumb bombs in CCIP). I've found some excellent training missions among the user files but that is just luck.

I completely agree to what you say about practice, itt's the only way to get better. That's where I think the developers should step up - a little more time spent on practice missions.

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, jonfog said:

 

Regarding training missions they are somewhat random in their content.

For instance:

A-10C: There's no training mission for working with a JTAC. And that's really a key skill with the A10-C

F/A-18C: There's no training mission on how to employ the Maverick.

 

 

No shortage of Youtube videos to walk you though it.

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

That is a very poor excuse. An $80 or so aircraft module is not supposed to rely on some random guy posting a video on YouTube on how to use it. This is pretty basic. Only RAZBAM aircraft really have a comprehensive suite of training missions, mostly because BalticDragon is really good at making them. Of note, the Harrier is the only aircraft I have with an AAR training mission. Even Heatblur missed that one, though Tomcat's tutorials are otherwise rather good.

We're still better than the other WWII sim, though. I recently started a written aircraft review thread, just because their written material is simply crap even when it does exist at all.

[draconus]

36 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

An $80 or so aircraft module is not supposed to rely on some random guy posting a video on YouTube on how to use it.

Of course, that's why it comes with full manual.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Of course, that's why it comes with full manual.

 

I agree ... the Module manual is usually my primary source for information on how to fly it ... believe it or not, not many flight sims came with proper manuals .. for example IL-2 only hs two: "Purchase and Install Manual" and "Operators Manual", there is no specific manual for each aircraft; for another example MSFS has no manuals for its built in aircraft, only add-on aircrafts sometimes came with manuals.

The Training missions, to be honest do not replace the Manual, and to my knowledge DCS is the only flight sim that has this type of learning aid .. IL-2 has nothing like it. The problem with training missions is that they require a lot of effort to create and are not really appropiate for modules that are in early access, as their evolution leaves the missions obsolete quickly.

Finally, the video tutorials are quite useful because they are easier to make than a training mission, and its quite easy to take notes watching such videos, that I can later on use as reference during my flights.

[jonfog]

15 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I agree ... the Module manual is usually my primary source for information on how to fly it ... believe it or not, not many flight sims came with proper manuals .. for example IL-2 only hs two: "Purchase and Install Manual" and "Operators Manual", there is no specific manual for each aircraft; for another example MSFS has no manuals for its built in aircraft, only add-on aircrafts sometimes came with manuals.

The Training missions, to be honest do not replace the Manual, and to my knowledge DCS is the only flight sim that has this type of learning aid .. IL-2 has nothing like it. The problem with training missions is that they require a lot of effort to create and are not really appropiate for modules that are in early access, as their evolution leaves the missions obsolete quickly.

Finally, the video tutorials are quite useful because they are easier to make than a training mission, and its quite easy to take notes watching such videos, that I can later on use as reference during my flights.

Yup the manuals are the strong point of DCS.

We all agree that to be somewhat proficient you have practice, practice and practice. So the question is should a good set of practice missions be included in the module you buy?

If I buy a module I expect that it is maintained. A youtube video or user file might be out of date any time.

As of note taking, are you flying in VR? That's where my problem is, how to get notes into the Kneeboard. I found a simple utility KB Quick that makes it possible to add notes to the Kneeboard. The old no longer maintained Kneeboard Builder only handles PDF files, and the rendering of them often becomes unusable.

[ECTAE]

Well, in my case I've always hated those gray icons. So I had to get rid of them.

Jokes aside, some weeks I do more WWII planes, others more Cold War, then maybe spend month in the F18. In my case this is a hobby, it does not define my personality, nor do I have to prove anything to anyone so if I do not learn a module 100%, nothing happens, nobody will examine me. But If I decide I want to go full nerd mode, I can sit and read hundreds of pages,watch some YT vids.I also enjoy  watching some twitch and see how ppl use some modules in pvp. The good thing is that you can try almost every module and decide if it's good for you or not.

Like many people here, I like to think that I'm supporting the development of a product I believe in. When I stop believing in it, my time and money will be diverted in another direction. 

[Rudel_chw]

4 hours ago, jonfog said:

We all agree that to be somewhat proficient you have practice, practice and practice. So the question is should a good set of practice missions be included in the module you buy?

 

I think that we all should we aware that every little thing we ask for represents an additional development cost for the module maker, be either keeping a manual fully current at all times, editing practice missions or keep said missions fully updated. Is it worth it increasing costs in order to have practice missions that we could as well have edited ourselves?

 

4 hours ago, jonfog said:

If I buy a module I expect that it is maintained.

 

Most actually are, you can see for yourself by looking at the changelogs  ... but it depends on what is understood by "maintained": I expect bug fixes, or completion of features if the module is in Early Acess, I don't expect the implementation of wishlist items or cosmetic reworks.

 

4 hours ago, jonfog said:

A youtube video or user file might be out of date any time.

 

So?  ... there are newer videos and user files coming out all the time.

 

4 hours ago, jonfog said:

As of note taking, are you flying in VR? That's where my problem is, how to get notes into the Kneeboard. I found a simple utility KB Quick that makes it possible to add notes to the Kneeboard.

 

No, I'm not doing VR anymore as I find it too uncomfortable. (at least with my headset)

 

4 hours ago, jonfog said:

The old no longer maintained Kneeboard Builder only handles PDF files, and the rendering of them often becomes unusable.

 

That's not entirely correct, KB still gets fixes from time to time, the latest was v1.9 on August 2022 ... or by "maintained" you mean add new features?  This tools still works for me, and PDF suits me just fine as most other Apps are able to export to PDF and the DCS manuals cames on PDF as well:

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Rudel_chw

[BuzzU]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:34 AM, draconus said:

Of course, that's why it comes with full manual.

JTAC is in the A-10C manual?

[Rudel_chw]

26 minutes ago, BuzzU said:

JTAC is in the A-10C manual?

yes, it is .. maybe not on a dedicated chapter but jtac is detailed on several parts of the manual.

[Dragon1-1]

10 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

So?  ... there are newer videos and user files coming out all the time.

...which are promptly lost between all the old ones. There's no easy way of filtering things that work from things that don't. Especially problematic with modules that had major changes at some point in their life. Even worse with those in the middle of an overhaul.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

...which are promptly lost between all the old ones. There's no easy way of filtering things that work from things that don't. Especially problematic with modules that had major changes at some point in their life. Even worse with those in the middle of an overhaul.

 

Ok, so videos are worthless and seems there is no easy solution for this problem ..  sad indeed. 

Regards,

 

Eduardo

[Dragon1-1]

There is - training missions from the devs (kept up to date as the module evolves), and more campaigns like Iron Flag and Speed and Angels, which focus on teaching various aspects of flying and fighting in the jets in an immersive way that no video can match. 

[BuzzU]

11 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

yes, it is .. maybe not on a dedicated chapter but jtac is detailed on several parts of the manual.

Ok, thanks. It's been a lot of years since I read the manual and I forgot.