View system default FOV now at 78 instead of a realistic 60?

[85th_Maverick]

After the latest updates the view is now more stretched and I was wondering why. Although we now have key combinations which can modify the zoom (FOV angle) levels for each outside view, the default FOV within the "view.lua" file inside the CONFIG folder in the main sim's directory is now being set at 78?

Why was it a good idea to make it even worse for looking around and spotting stuff as it was already almost impossible to see an enemy unit with the default view zoom/FOV?

IRL one should be able to see a human on the ground even from 3km high if there's no haze and the weather is clear, but in DCS you can't see one even from 500m with the normal zoom/fov value. In fact, all units in DCS become extremely hardly visible from ranges at which in reality it isn't hard. This subject regarding the units visibility in DCS is a decade long debate and will most certainly continue if not finally done right.

Zooming in or out is first of all an unrealistic feature, we all must agree with that. A human eye can't zoom. If one requires a bigger monitor or more in order to have more coverage is one thing, but to increase the FOV and distort the image for whatever sake is odd.

Also, in multiplayer, the zooming feature must be blocked, because it's simply a big time cheat and exploit. The server admin should have the possibility to lock the FOV at 60 or have the natural zoom locked for everyone.

[SharpeXB]

16 hours ago, 85th_Maverick said:

Zooming in or out is first of all an unrealistic feature, we all must agree with that.

It’s not an unrealistic feature for playing on a monitor. If you have eyes and I trust that you do, you’ll notice your own peripheral vision is about 200d. This is hardly practical to display on a 16:9 monitor. You’ll also notice everything in the real world is a lot larger than your screen. A “realistic” life-sized FOV would probably be 20-30d akin to zoomed-in. Again, hardly practical. So the solution is to give you the option of changing this on the fly ie zoom view. The other factor here is resolution. Again you’ll notice your real world eyes have much greater acuity than can be simulated on a monitor or VR headset. Since we can’t change the number of pixels the only solution here is to zoom in and magnify. It’s a method for the game to simulate 20/20 vision on a low resolution display. Even VR needs this solution since the best HMDs are still very far short of real life acuity. The zoom view is not unique to DCS. All flight sims have this feature for the same reasons. 
It’s amusing that you say you can get by without using the zoom, you’re literally flying blind. 
 

PS I haven’t noticed the change you mention. But you can set the “normal” zoom level to whatever you prefer in the config files. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by SharpeXB

[sthompson]

"Realistic" FOV depends on monitor size and the distance of the eyes from the screen. There is no one-size-fits-all angle, even if fixing it to be "realistic" were to become a thing. There is never going to be a totally level playing field for MP. Just think of the pros and cons of VR vs. 2D for example? Are VR people cheating? The flat-screen crowd?

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, sthompson said:

"Realistic" FOV depends on monitor size and the distance of the eyes from the screen.

Some sim racers set a life sized FOV like this because it affects the perception of speed. But such an angle is too narrow to be practical in a flight sim and many of those players I’m sure use triple screens. 

4 hours ago, sthompson said:

There is never going to be a totally level playing field for MP

Many games have an adjustable FOV setting and none I’m aware of regulate that in mp. There’s no advantage to be gained because you’re simply trading one ability for another by adjusting it. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Lace]

On 12/27/2022 at 10:41 PM, 85th_Maverick said:

IRL one should be able to see a human on the ground even from 3km high if there's no haze and the weather is clear,

Source?  Your eyes must be waaaay better than mine if you can spot humans from 10,000ft IRL.

[Bucic]

Soooo, what's the quickest way to set it to ~60 so that I don't have to zoom in at every mission start?

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Bucic said:

Soooo, what's the quickest way to set it to ~60 so that I don't have to zoom in at every mission start?

Set the angle you want and then press “save cockpit angles” RAlt+Num0. Make sure you have User Snap View Saving enabled under Misc. 

If you like this for other aircraft you can go into the SnapViews.lua at your Saved Games\DCS\Config\View

Edit this under the plane you want

    [13] = {--default view
        viewAngle        = 60.000000,--FOV
        hAngle            = 0.000000,
        vAngle            = -19.000000,
        x_trans            = 0.150000,
        y_trans            = 0.000000,
        z_trans            = 0.000000,
        rollAngle        = 0.000000,
        cockpit_version    = 1,

This sets the value for “zoom normal” you might still need to reset it at mission start though  

    

Edited December 29, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Dragon1-1]

5 hours ago, Lace said:

Source?  Your eyes must be waaaay better than mine if you can spot humans from 10,000ft IRL.

I'm pretty sure he never looked at humans from that high up. You might be able to spot a shadow, or someone deliberately trying to make himself visible, but even that takes some really good eyes, and more importantly, knowing where to look. Ordinary humans and vehicles in camo are not visible from that high up. He might have been thinking 3000 feet, which is still spotty, but somewhat more plausible.

[BuzzU]

I zoom all the time when hunting. Either with the scope or binos.

This is not real life. It's a sim and adjustments need to be made to make it playable. As long as everybody has the same advantage it's not cheating.

[rayrayblues]

On 12/27/2022 at 2:41 PM, 85th_Maverick said:

Zooming in or out is first of all an unrealistic feature, we all must agree with that

     

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, rayrayblues said:

     

Zoom view is not meant to simulate binoculars, it’s meant to replicate RW 20/20 vision and FOV. 

[darkman222]

Does it affect in cockpit view too?! Why do we care so much about the exterior views? Or am I missing something?

[Belphe]

Zooming in or out will mess up your HUD/IHADSS

[SharpeXB]

23 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Does it affect in cockpit view too?! Why do we care so much about the exterior views? Or am I missing something?

You mean the slider for exterior FOV in the settings? Yeah I’m curious why that was added when the cockpit FOV is so much more important. 

3 hours ago, Belphe said:

Zooming in or out will mess up your HUD/IHADSS

Not really. How do you see that? 

[85th_Maverick]

On 12/28/2022 at 3:57 PM, SharpeXB said:

It’s not an unrealistic feature for playing on a monitor. If you have eyes and I trust that you do, you’ll notice your own peripheral vision is about 200d. This is hardly practical to display on a 16:9 monitor. You’ll also notice everything in the real world is a lot larger than your screen. A “realistic” life-sized FOV would probably be 20-30d akin to zoomed-in. Again, hardly practical. So the solution is to give you the option of changing this on the fly ie zoom view. The other factor here is resolution. Again you’ll notice your real world eyes have much greater acuity than can be simulated on a monitor or VR headset. Since we can’t change the number of pixels the only solution here is to zoom in and magnify. It’s a method for the game to simulate 20/20 vision on a low resolution display. Even VR needs this solution since the best HMDs are still very far short of real life acuity. The zoom view is not unique to DCS. All flight sims have this feature for the same reasons. 
It’s amusing that you say you can get by without using the zoom, you’re literally flying blind. 
 

PS I haven’t noticed the change you mention. But you can set the “normal” zoom level to whatever you prefer in the config files. 

 

I totally agree with you. When I meant that zooming and and out is a cheating in multiplayer what did you understand? It's as simple as it sounds. Zooming in/out is a way to cheat in PVP. Having a bigger monitor, yes, covers more view, similar to having greater FOV and vice-versa with a small monitor, but being able to zoom in at the levels DCS allows us for we can see planes and ground units from impossible distances to the human eye and that's the cheat and it can and should be corrected (I hope) in the future by limiting the zoom as to be the equivalent of a 50 degrees (not 60) FOV and not below that. Anything higher can help those who don't have or not want to have a big screen and just use either a laptop or regular PC monitor. Said this just to be fair with everyone. On the other hand, having a big screen and also abusing the zoom in, heh..., I let you guys test this against another player in MP who has a smaller monitor and is a decent person not zooming in but rather flying with the default zoom level (as everyone else should).

ONLY in VR (I use it most of the time) the zoom and field of view are exactly real (at least from what I can see compared to real life), but there's where it all limits to. Out of VR..., and you can abuse it quite a lot which personally disgusts me when I see others doing so and they most do, at least on YT videos.

On 12/29/2022 at 7:05 PM, SharpeXB said:

Set the angle you want and then press “save cockpit angles” RAlt+Num0. Make sure you have User Snap View Saving enabled under Misc. 

If you like this for other aircraft you can go into the SnapViews.lua at your Saved Games\DCS\Config\View

Edit this under the plane you want

    [13] = {--default view
        viewAngle        = 60.000000,--FOV
        hAngle            = 0.000000,
        vAngle            = -19.000000,
        x_trans            = 0.150000,
        y_trans            = 0.000000,
        z_trans            = 0.000000,
        rollAngle        = 0.000000,
        cockpit_version    = 1,

This sets the value for “zoom normal” you might still need to reset it at mission start though  

    

 

Thanks, but now this is the new technique as you define it here. Before X update, the "view.lua" file in DCS main folder and under CONFIG folder there was a line defining the default FOV which was global for the whole game and all vehicles. Now it's as you describe it here.:)

On 1/1/2023 at 10:23 PM, SharpeXB said:

Zoom view is not meant to simulate binoculars, it’s meant to replicate RW 20/20 vision and FOV. 

Well, if he answered "SLAVA UKRAINI" it's already enough said=).

[Bucic]

@85th_Maverick

What's the state of "no subpixel objects" as of 2023 in DCS? Years ago I was reading how ED is planning to tackle the problem of:

1. Objects disappearing completely in rendering before they should realistically.

2. Players obviously using vastly different displays.

 

[85th_Maverick]

On 1/1/2023 at 10:20 PM, rayrayblues said:

     

How many aircraft in DCS have this in real life? Lol you just came with a pointless answer and SharpeXB just said what was correct to say.

Just now, Bucic said:

@85th_Maverick

What's the state of "no subpixel objects" as of 2023 in DCS? Years ago I was reading how ED is planning to tackle the problem of:

1. Objects disappearing completely in rendering before they should realistically.

2. Players obviously using vastly different displays.

 

And the #1 problem you mentioned there is still unfixed. Once there was a thing called "Impostors" and impostors.lua which was actually the best workaround so far by making vehicles and planes disappear much later from screen and although it wasn't realistic in essence, if tweaked good enough it could make flying or ground units get physically seen from more realistic distances. For whatever reason..., they gave up on that "impostors" feature and returned to the same initial problem which remained.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, 85th_Maverick said:

Zooming in/out is a way to cheat in PVP

It’s not “cheating” since everyone can do it. As for what it allows you to see I think you underestimate your real eyesight. Take this as an example. 
https://visionsource.com/patients/free-eye-chart-download/

imagine this in the game 10’ away from you and try to read the bottom line. That’s what you can see IRL. You can’t see that in the game unless you zoomed in, even in 4K

There will never be equal hardware so it’s not worth worrying about. Besides the feature is self limiting. The more you zoom in the less you see peripherally so it’s just a trade off. 
The variable FOV aka zoom view is the only way that a monitor can replicate 20/20 vision and peripheral vision. If you aren’t using this you’re flying blind. No pilot IRL would have vision as poor as 1080p

Edited January 5, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Belphe]

On 1/5/2023 at 6:11 PM, SharpeXB said:

Not really. How do you see that? 

 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Belphe said:

 

You need to zoom in to read the text. That’s why there’s a zoom feature. Same with seeing distant aircraft, targets etc. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Belphe]

On 1/9/2023 at 3:49 PM, SharpeXB said:

You need to zoom in to read the text. That’s why there’s a zoom feature. Same with seeing distant aircraft, targets etc. 

 

I don't need to zoom in at all because I have a big a** monitor. Are you totally blind on the thick font on both MFGs and HUD?

[draconus]

On 12/27/2022 at 10:41 PM, 85th_Maverick said:

This subject regarding the units visibility in DCS is a decade long debate and will most certainly continue if not finally done right.

Unless everyone uses the same hardware (ex. full fov VR with retinal resolution) there'll be no solution because the game doesn't know the physical size of your monitor nor your distance from it, so it cannot set it realistically, not even counting if resolution is good enough to simulate both human vision capability and limitation.

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, Belphe said:

I don't need to zoom in at all because I have a big a** monitor. Are you totally blind on the thick font on both MFGs and HUD?

The discussion here is about the zoom view, not HUD graphics. If you think that’s not authentic perhaps discuss that elsewhere. I can read that text in your screenshot just fine on an 11” iPad. I’m not sure what you are trying to report. A large ultra-wide screen is still the same vertical size as a smaller 16:9 and therefore still requires using the zoom view to see small or distant things with realistic acuity. The extra big a** size is at the periphery. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Belphe]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:59 PM, SharpeXB said:

I’m not sure what you are trying to report. A large ultra-wide screen is still the same vertical size as a smaller 16:9 and therefore still requires using the zoom view

HUD/IHADSS/MFG symbology doesn't scale the same way as cockpit geometry when zooming out.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Belphe said:

HUD/IHADSS/MFG symbology doesn't scale the same way as cockpit geometry when zooming out.

I don’t quite understand what you mean. It scales larger and smaller for me when I zoom in and out just like the rest of the world and the cockpit. Maybe a video example would help explain. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by SharpeXB