ECM buttons -- push one or push all?

[TheBigTatanka]

There's been no documentation about how the ECM panel's push- buttons work in game. Does it matter if you just depress button 1? Or should you depress them all? Does it affect jammer effectiveness?

 

Cheers

 

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[Glide]

There is Wags' ECM video:

 

[TheBigTatanka]

So in WAG's video, he has buttons 1-5 plus blank selected. What we don't know is if it's more efficient to target certain bands only by only selecting corresponding buttons for certain radars. @BIGNEWY , do you know if the game is modeled to that level? I'm a pretty lazy pilot, and if it doesn't matter what buttons are depressed on the ECM panel, I'll save myself some button presses.

Likewise, if it's more efficient to only power certain buttons to specifically target threats you are expecting, I'd happily do that too.

I'm guessing that in modes 1&2 the RWR gear feeds into what is selected to transmit, but maybe it's not the case on mode3, and it would make a difference.

Thanks.

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[SickSidewinder9]

Jamming and radio wave simulation aren't that complex in DCS.  For starters, a lot of that stuff is probably classified.  Just press 1 through 6.

[Paladin1cd]

How about we find out how the simulator is programmed and things work instead of having to be test pilots?

[TheBigTatanka]

How that stuff actually works is of course not public. How it works in a video game should be. I'm asking about how it works in a video game.

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[Paladin1cd]

10 hours ago, TheBigTatanka said:

How that stuff actually works is of course not public. How it works in a video game should be. I'm asking about how it works in a video game.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
 

Exactly what I am asking for. 

[Raptor9]

Page 430 and 431 of the DCS F-16 Early Access manual describes the ECM Control panel functions within DCS World.

[skywalker22]

In general, when pressing buttons from 1 to 5 to turn them ON (not sure about the button with no number on), you actually activate the electronic receivers, antennas, and powerful transmitters of 1 to 5 frequency band modules. You can find some more great reading here: https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/an-alq-131.htm

Edited January 15, 2023 by skywalker22

[Paladin1cd]

On 1/15/2023 at 11:30 AM, Raptor9 said:

Page 430 and 431 of the DCS F-16 Early Access manual describes the ECM Control panel functions within DCS World.

Where are bands defined? 

[Machalot]

3 hours ago, Paladin1cd said:

Where are bands defined? 

Strangely there's no English Wikipedia page, but the German page says the overall frequency range is 2-20 GHz.  It doesn't specify the sub-bands, but a zero order guess might be to divide up that range into 5 equal geometrical bins.  For example,

• 2-3.2 GHz
• 3.2-5 GHz
• 5-8 GHz
• 8-12.5 GHz
• 12.5-20 GHz

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/ALQ-131

Edited January 17, 2023 by Machalot

[QuiGon]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter at all in DCS, if you just push one of those buttons or all five, as DCS doesn't simulate radar frequencies and such.

Edited January 17, 2023 by QuiGon

[skywalker22]

Anyone knows what is that blank button for? It surely is not for enabling frequences (like buttons from 1 to 5).

[QuiGon]

3 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Anyone knows what is that blank button for? It surely is not for enabling frequences (like buttons from 1 to 5).

IRL? I guess the exact button functionality for these buttons depends on the software suite of the jammer pod that the aircraft is equipped with.

[Raptor9]

I'll respectfully state once more that some of the questions in this thread (to include the original question from the OP) regarding the DCS F-16 ECM pods can be answered in the Early Access manual. Beyond providing the resource to reference, I don't know what else can be done.

[TheBigTatanka]

Raptor, can you link that? Or give a summary? I'm on a trip and away from the computer for several days.

My question was if it matters if we push one or all of the power buttons (1-5 + blank), or if DCS doesn't care because it doesn't model it in that detail.

If i were home i would look at the manual and test -- but I'm on the road for a while and curious.

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[Dragon1-1]

AFAIK, some modules are pointed fore and some aft, at least IRL. I'm not sure which ones, or if DCS models that, but it should be possible to select the hemisphere you want to jam in by turning some of those buttons off.

Given this, I think figuring out frequencies should be simple: high frequency fore/aft, low frequency fore/aft, and I'm not sure what the fifth would do (mid frequencies, perhaps?), but it's probably pointed fore, as well.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[skywalker22]

2 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

I'll respectfully state once more that some of the questions in this thread (to include the original question from the OP) regarding the DCS F-16 ECM pods can be answered in the Early Access manual. Beyond providing the resource to reference, I don't know what else can be done.

Nothing at this stage. ECM system should be made from the ground up if you would like to work closely to real life.

The "problem" of current state of ECM in DCS is that there is only one type of jamming, and that's noise. This is the basic type, but unfortunately its very outdated system, which is no more in use in modern warfare. Sophisticated ECM system is called Deception jamming. The trick is, what it does with the signals, how does blend the doppler picture, and so on and so forth. It tries to blend/change the azimuth, elevation and the speed of it self. 

So yee, it would take a complete new system, if we would like to have something similar like ECM is real world is. Until then... as you said, there is nothing much it can be done.

Some good read what deception jamming is: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_jamming_and_deception

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/wcmc/2021/8844630/

Anyway, I am sure it can be coded, to at least some degree. But it will take some time, and some research.

[Raptor9]

4 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

The "problem" of current state of ECM in DCS is that there is only one type of jamming, and that's noise. This is the basic type, but unfortunately its very outdated system, which is no more in use in modern warfare. Sophisticated ECM system is called Deception jamming.

Deception jamming effects are simulated with DCS F-16C ECM pods when set to the appropriate modes. This was stated by ED team members in a previous thread on the topic several months ago to which you yourself took part in. If you choose to not believe this, that is your prerogative; but your statements are incorrect and misleading to other players.

[skywalker22]

1 minute ago, Raptor9 said:

Deception jamming effects are simulated with DCS F-16C ECM pods when set to the appropriate modes. This was stated by ED team members in a previous thread on the topic several months ago to which you yourself took part in. If you choose to not believe this, that is your prerogative; but your statements are incorrect and misleading to other players.

I know, I remember of course. But since there is no proof of deception jamming except words here on the forum, I cannot take it as granted. And all the evidence, at least on F-16 shows I am correct, sorry to say that, and I am pretty sure F/A-18C is the same (I fly it way less, but the out come is similar). But I cannot be sure about M-2000, really didn't fly it for at least a year if not more.

[QuiGon]

42 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

I know, I remember of course. But since there is no proof of deception jamming except words here on the forum, I cannot take it as granted. And all the evidence, at least on F-16 shows I am correct, sorry to say that, and I am pretty sure F/A-18C is the same (I fly it way less, but the out come is similar). But I cannot be sure about M-2000, really didn't fly it for at least a year if not more.

In DCS the type of jamming doesn't depend on the jammer, but on the jamming effects simulated on the target aircraft that is being targeted by the jammer. If the targeted aircraft simulates deception jamming (kinda what the M2000C does for example) then you see that. If the targeted aircraft simulates noise jamming (like most aicraft in DCS do), then you will see that. If the targeted aircraft doesn't have any jamming effects implemented, then you see nothing at all and are immune against jammig (as the Tomcat, Hornet and Viper were in earlier stages of early access).
On the jammer side, all it does is to set the jammer value to ON. It depends entirely on the targeted side what effect it has.

These are purely my own personal observations from playing DCS. I have no insight into the code or anything, so I could be wrong, but so far I haven't seen anything in DCS contradicting this.

[TheBigTatanka]

Skywalker, thanks for posting the manual pages. So it says there on the last line that the buttons are identical, and different buttons won't have a different effect.

Sounds like for now, we can just leave one selected. Thank you!

As far as the rest of the discussion -- good stuff, here's hoping it gets further fleshed out on both the jammer and jammed side of things.

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[Raptor9]

16 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

In DCS the type of jamming doesn't depend on the jammer, but on the jamming effects simulated on the target aircraft that is being targeted by the jammer. If the targeted aircraft simulates deception jamming (kinda what the M2000C does for example) then you see that. If the targeted aircraft simulates noise jamming (like most aicraft in DCS do), then you will see that. If the targeted aircraft doesn't have any jamming effects implemented, then you see nothing at all and are immune against jammig (as the Tomcat, Hornet and Viper were in earlier stages of early access).

This statement only applies to a client aircraft perspective. There are different jamming effects simulated against AI units such as air defenses and such.

Not directed at you, but if derived from solely a PvP multiplayer perspective, the resulting interpretations are very subjective of what is simulated.

[skywalker22]

9 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

In DCS the type of jamming doesn't depend on the jammer, but on the jamming effects simulated on the target aircraft that is being targeted by the jammer. If the targeted aircraft simulates deception jamming (kinda what the M2000C does for example) then you see that. If the targeted aircraft simulates noise jamming (like most aicraft in DCS do), then you will see that. If the targeted aircraft doesn't have any jamming effects implemented, then you see nothing at all and are immune against jammig (as the Tomcat, Hornet and Viper were in earlier stages of early access).
On the jammer side, all it does is to set the jammer value to ON. It depends entirely on the targeted side what effect it has.

These are purely my own personal observations from playing DCS. I have no insight into the code or anything, so I could be wrong, but so far I haven't seen anything in DCS contradicting this.

I think we have quite similar observations on different aircrafts in DCS, but I would only disagree on F-16 and F/A-18C, which have noise jamming implemented, you can see that clearly on FCR (CRMode) on F-16, if they use jammer (with those 2 yellow arrows over the search target). 

[QuiGon]

16 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

This statement only applies to a client aircraft perspective. There are different jamming effects simulated against AI units such as air defenses and such.

Not directed at you, but if derived from solely a PvP multiplayer perspective, the resulting interpretations are very subjective of what is simulated.

True, my comment was indeed mostly focused on multiplayer with players vs players as this is how I mostly play DCS. But even against the AI I suspect that this is coded on the targeted side, which is the AI in this case. So it's not something inherent to the jammer, but part of the AI behaviour when it encounters a jammer.

Edited January 17, 2023 by QuiGon