FFB Stick for F15E?

[Rex]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I probably am, but the F15E is not a fully FBW aircraft like the F/A-18.   Or maybe it is?  I know that new versions are supposedly getting it, but the 15E of the generation that is being released by Razbam still has a CAS, correct?

Does this mean that the module will benefit from an FFB stick?

I've been thinking about getting one of the high-end FFB sticks, but with the F/A-18 being my primary driver, it would be of limited benefit.

What do you imagine the situation will be with the new Eagle?

Edited February 8, 2023 by Rex

[Nahen]

The F-15E is an "aerodynamically stable" design - like all F-15 family aircraft. I don't need FbW. Yes, it has systems supporting the "leading" of the aircraft to facilitate it, But it is not and will never be, even in the latest EX, a typical FbW, which is primarily to keep the aerodynamically unstable airframe "level", with the often shifted center of gravity, which without constant control and adjustments to all control surfaces would not have been able to maintain a stable position in the air. Unless we consider it in the category of "traditional" cables, cables connected to control surface actuators or servomotors - without FbW, or a rod connected only by wiring with electrical and hydraulic converters - with FbW.

Anyway, the F-15E and newer have pilot assist systems, which makes them different from earlier versions. There isn't much of a difference on the stick.

[MAXsenna]

The F-15E is an "aerodynamically stable" design - like all F-15 family aircraft. I don't need FbW. Yes, it has systems supporting the "leading" of the aircraft to facilitate it, But it is not and will never be, even in the latest EX, a typical FbW, which is primarily to keep the aerodynamically unstable airframe "level", with the often shifted center of gravity, which without constant control and adjustments to all control surfaces would not have been able to maintain a stable position in the air. Unless we consider it in the category of "traditional" cables, cables connected to control surface actuators or servomotors - without FbW, or a rod connected only by wiring with electrical and hydraulic converters - with FbW.
Anyway, the F-15E and newer have pilot assist systems, which makes them different from earlier versions. There isn't much of a difference on the stick.

That's cool and all, but you didn't really answer the question. And it seems you're pretty invested in the Eagle, so I'd like to know too.
Will a Force Feedback Stick enhance the experience in the module?
Effects like stick shaker, harder the more you pull the stick etc. TIA.

Cheers!

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[Nahen]

I honestly never thought of any kind of forcefeedback on the stick. I fly on a standard Warthog, in the near future I am replacing the grip itself with a copy of the F-15 stick and modifying the throttle with the elevation knob of the radar antenna that is in the F-15. Somehow I don't feel the need for the stick to shake or resist me. Maybe if I was building a specific rotating cockpit working in three axes, I would think about it

[Deano87]

It will largely depend how well Razbam program the FFB. But yes, the F15E should benefit from a good FFB stick.

[doedkoett]

I think the question is incorrect.
What is interesting here is if the F-15E, the real a/c, and the module, has a Q-feel system. A system that artificially recreates the feel of the aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces, so that the pilot can feel the speed in the stick, so to say. A FFB stick could replicate this, creating more resistance the faster you go.

FBW is in it self not necessarily a reason not to have such a feedback system. While the FCS might pamper you by limiting the G´s available at any given time, "feeling" the speed on the control surfaces add information of the state of the aircraft to the pilot in an intuitive way.
Now, this system is of course superfluous on an a/c with a force sensing stick. There you invert the the whole thing, making the a/c react to pilot force instead of the other way.

I think that the F-15 has an artificial feedback system, but I am not sure. As far as I could find, the Hornet does not. 

[WildWeasel303]

14 minutes ago, doedkoett said:

I think that the F-15 has an artificial feedback system, but I am not sure. As far as I could find, the Hornet does not. 

Depends on the situation. The system is designed such that if you have a mechanical linkage disconnect that the "fly by wire" system will continue to operate and provide feedback in the stick to the pilot. The pilot would most likely never even feel the difference because of how the system is integrated. One of the biggest differences with the F-15's flight controls and something like the F-16 is that it isn't true fly by wire. It's a 'boosted' mechanical hydro system with 2 primary hydraulic systems and a utility system that can provide backup power for both (hence the need for a 3 system hydraulic mule for maintenance crews). The 15 still has physical links to the flight control surfaces running the span of the aircraft from the stick and the pedals. The 16 is all digital input signals sent through wiring. 

doedkoett is right on the money in terms of using a FFB stick in this case. It MIGHT get you the feedback you're looking for from the aircraft and feel 'similar' in some sense to the real deal, but keep in mind the real jet is still augmenting what the pilot is feeling through the stick on a regular basis to reduce workload and fatigue.

My personal recommendation is to find a stick that isn't necessarily FFB but has some kind of physical feedback or dampening. I run the Winwing orion 2 with the 16EX stick which has a rumble motor similar to what you'd find in something like an xbox controller. As gimmicky as it sounded to me at first and after flying with it for a few weeks now with the Viper in DCS, I can't bring myself to turn it off. The feedback it gives in rate fighting and hard maneuvers is game changing compared to my old TM Warthog.

[Despayre]

1 hour ago, Nahen said:

<snip> ... Maybe if I was building a specific rotating cockpit working in three axes, I would think about it

I think they already made that ship...  We just need to wait for DCS to create an API for "Death Blossom".

 

 

 

[Alpha]

I don´t think a FFB-Stick is needed as the real F15 has a (almost) constant Stick-Force per G at all speeds. As real Stick Forces are way higher than any PC-Stick provides and as DCS can not measure the Force it will pretty much come down to "stick displacement vs G". Here´s some Background Info regarding the real F15 Flight Controls: 

https://www.f15sim.com/operation/f15_flight_control_system.htm

https://www.f15sim.com/operation/f15_hydro_mech.html

 

That website has more in-depth information if needed.

 

Graphs, if needed: https://imgur.com/a/qnyrpD0

 

That being said: I never flew a real F15 and have to rely on that website (and other military jets I have flown). Also there is feedback in the form of buffeting of the airframe (depending on AOA) on most fast jet - but that doesn´t really go through the stick (sts) but through the airframe itself. You can hear and feel the jet performing - from "light tickle" to "elephants dancing on the wings". So get a normal Joystick with rather heavy springs and some form of Jetpad/Buttkicker/whatever

Edited February 8, 2023 by Alpha

[nairb121]

The F-15's artificial feel system isn't like a lot of other planes. The stick force per displacement doesn't change significantly based on airspeed - instead the stabilator linkage is geared to airspeed such that the stabilator deflection is reduced at higher airspeed for a given stick force/displacement, in order to maintain proportional force per g. Might be a little weirdness from the CAS but for the most part there should be very little change in the stick feel, only the response of the aircraft.

[MAXsenna]

Hehe! Thanks for the answers. Not sure I'm any wiser, so those of us that have FFB sticks will just wait and see.

Some modules in DCS benefit greatly from FFB sticks. Primarily WWII, where the stick is completely limp if you don't have airflow over the surfaces. But others like the C-101 simulates this as well. Trimming helicopters is a breeze too.

I'm not interested in "effects" like guns or vibrations that shouldn't be there.

Cheers!

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[Nahen]

3 hours ago, Despayre said:

Myślę, że już stworzyli ten statek… Musimy tylko poczekać, aż DCS stworzy API dla „Death Blossom”.

 

 

 

I was thinking more like this

 

[VirusAM]

Hehe! Thanks for the answers. Not sure I'm any wiser, so those of us that have FFB sticks will just wait and see.

Some modules in DCS benefit greatly from FFB sticks. Primarily WWII, where the stick is completely limp if you don't have airflow over the surfaces. But others like the C-101 simulates this as well. Trimming helicopters is a breeze too.

I'm not interested in "effects" like guns or vibrations that shouldn't be there.

Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

Yeah I really hope they will at least implement the moving trim.
None of the razbam modules has any FFB implementation nor the harrier and nor the mig-19.

[MAXsenna]

Yeah I really hope they will at least implement the moving trim.
None of the razbam modules has any FFB implementation nor the harrier and nor the mig-19.

Oh, that could be true. But I was sure the 19 had the trim implemented.
Must check that.
But, yeah. The FFB trim feature is a must.

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[erniedaoage]

Nah mig 19 doesn't have the trim function implemented i tested a couple of days ago.  The only reason i haven't flown a razbam module in years is the missing ffb implementation for me. I really would love to fly the mig19 but it doesn't feel right compared to all my other modules. Last time i tested a couple years ago, before the went on to redo the m2000c, it was the only plane where ffb was somehow working. Haven't tested again since i can't stand fbw jets, but from the feeling on the stick it was their best module. 

I am not really interessted in the f-15 anyways, but i will get it if i read good things from people with ffb sticks. 

 

@Razbam: If you need a ffb stick for development i would gladly send you a microsoft ffb2, i bought like 4 or 5 of them for 50€ and less and could spare one if that means we ffb users get a better implementation!

 

[Deano87]

@erniedaoage Might be worth contacting them on Discord, might be able to get one into the hands of the right person. As FFB is becoming more prevalent then it would be great to get it working.

[Rex]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:29 AM, MAXsenna said:

Primarily WWII, where the stick is completely limp if you don't have airflow over the surfaces.

 

I have trouble flying warbirds due to lack of FFB.   In the heat of battle I tend to pull too hard because I can't feel any buffeting or resistance (beyond the stick springs).

Do you mind if I ask which stick you use?

[MAXsenna]

 
I have trouble flying warbirds due to lack of FFB.   In the heat of battle I tend to pull too hard because I can't feel any buffeting or resistance (beyond the stick springs).
Do you mind if I ask which stick you use?

I've got the MS FFB2'S, actually five of them. Got them all cheap.
Have plans to mod them with the power mod, then mate two and two and then connect them together for a dual trainer cockpit.
I have also plans to get Walmis' Rhino, expensive, but sounds like it's waaaaay better than the Brunner.

Cheers!

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[ironhard]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:49 PM, VirusAM said:

Yeah I really hope they will at least implement the moving trim.
None of the razbam modules has any FFB implementation nor the harrier and nor the mig-19.

For them to implement something like this they'd need to own such a device. There aren't many available in the market, at least not for a reasonable price or diy man-hours.

 

[MAXsenna]

For them to implement something like this they'd need to own such a device. There aren't many available in the market, at least not for a reasonable price or diy man-hours.
 

Both the free A-4E-C and the MB-339 modules have/had great FFB implemented, and I'm pretty sure the MB-339 team mentioned they didn't own an FFB stick, can't remember if the A-4E-C team did mention it.
Members of the Heatblur team have mentioned that they don't have access to an FFB stick, yet the FFB implementation in bother Viggen and the Tomcat is great.
Don't remember if the Aviodev/Aerges team have access, but the C-101 have superb FFB implementation.
So, I disagree, Razbam could probably easily implement this if they wanted too.
Even here in Norway I've acquired five MS FFB2's, for an average of 30USD.

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[Alpha]

As mentioned before: the Stick forces in the real F-15E are linear force per G and do not change with Airspeed. The stick position also doesn't change while trimming (see links above). There's really no point in FFB with the Strike Eagle. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Alpha

[MAXsenna]

As mentioned before: the Stick forces in the real F-15E are linear force per G and do not change with Airspeed. The stick position also doesn't change while trimming (see links above). There's really no point in FFB with the Strike Eagle. 

Oh, it doesn't move while trimming?
Thanks, then I agree!

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[Rainmaker]

50 minutes ago, Alpha said:

As mentioned before: the Stick forces in the real F-15E are linear force per G and do not change with Airspeed. The stick position also doesn't change while trimming (see links above). There's really no point in FFB with the Strike Eagle. 

 

Mmmm, the stick absolutely does move when trimming.  Where you getting that info?

Its also not ‘always’ a constant stick force, most specifically when you get slow as it provides stick force in anti-stall. 

[Alpha]

See the Links provided before (Feb 08 Posting).

Examples: 

https://www.f15sim.com/operation/f15_flight_control_system.htm

"The ratio is scheduled to produce essentially the same stick travel per "g" throughout the flight envelope.  Since the longitudinal feel system is just a simple spring cartridge, this then relates to a constant stick force per "g" (Fs/g) (about 4.25 lb/g).  It is scheduled by Mach number and altitude and does a rather good job; however, it won't quite cover the full range of aircraft and stabilator power and there is some scatter of the Fs/g, i.e., some mild increase in sensitivity during low altitude/high speed flight, and some decrease in sensitivity at low speeds."

 

 

 https://www.f15sim.com/operation/f15_hydro_mech.html

The Document says: " The combination of feel trim, variable mechanical advantage, and series trimming gives the pilot, as near as possible, a constant stick force per G and keeps the stick pretty well in the same place in the cockpit throughout the flight." 

 

Stick Forces: https://imgur.com/a/qnyrpD0

 

Granted - that´s all -C Model, but I didn´t find different Info for the -E.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Alpha

[Rainmaker]

3 minutes ago, Alpha said:

See the Links provided before (Feb 08 Posting). https://www.f15sim.com/operation/f15_hydro_mech.html

The Document says: " The combination of feel trim, variable mechanical advantage, and series trimming gives the pilot, as near as possible, a constant stick force per G and keeps the stick pretty well in the same place in the cockpit throughout the flight." 

 

Stick Forces: https://imgur.com/a/qnyrpD0

 

Granted - that´s all -C Model, but I didn´t find different Info for the -E.

The zero-force or hands-off stick position is varied when the pilot presses the pitch trim switch on his stick. The pitch trim actuator moves the trim position of the control stick and linkage to satisfy pilot requirements. 

Longitudinal Control 

The anti-stall force may or may be covered in the text (too lazy to research), but it does exist, and is covered in the block diagram.

In any event, both things are true