Just got a force sensing F16 stick... "This changes everything".. ;)

[Peedee]

Ok, it doesn' change "everything". But,I just got the FSSB-RL MKII ULTRA base + F16SGRH V2 grip from a company called Realsimulator - who also makes simulators and equipment for the professional market.

Looking at the Realsimulator homepage you'll see that this base+stick combination is... expensive. So much about our hobby is that. And the way one controls the airplane (F16) in the sim should have a priority - I think. Expensive, but I cannot understand why Realsimulator haven't got any more attention than it has. I mean, until 14 days ago, I've heard about Virpil, Winwing, Thrustmaster, VKB, Saitek, CH, Logitech.... lots of them. But never Realsimulator. I was looking for a force sensitive stick for F16 with realistic movement, and I found Winwings solution. Which sounded nice. I also found Realsimulator, and I went for that. And I am so glad I did. 

For flying F16 sims I have used a lot different setups over the years, from just the Commodore 64 keyboard, to Spectravideo joystick in the 80's, and later to CH, Logitech, Saitek, and then finally Thrustmaster for a number of years. And then I tried Virbil Warbird base with the Thrustmaster A10/F16 grip about a year ago - and that was much better than the all Thrustmaster solution. That Warthog joystick base... not very good compared to the Virpil. My opinion only, of course. 

But now, with this Realsimulator force sensing combo - wow!! It totally blows everything else out of the water. Flying with a stick that moves the same amount as the real F16, and uses force sensing input - that in itself feels incredible. And the level of precision on this thing - and all different ways you can customize how your force input should be interpreted by the MKII Ultra base and software - and then sent to the sim--- wow! There so much the cover in that topic, and right now I dont´t have the time. But feel free to ask questions. I've been playing flight simulator/games and combat sims since the very early 80's. This is just incredible. 

But - there is a but - this combo makes most sense if F16 is a plane that you fly a lot. I have it mounted to the right in my "cockpit" - like in the real thing. But I also have a center mounted Virpil Warbird base for A-10 (using the Thrustmaster grip there) and F18 (got the Thrustmaster grip for that one too), and helos and everything else. If F16 is something you are into, then.. check it out if you haven't already.

[freehand]

I used to have the saitek X65F and in the other sim was very nice in the f16 when flying your mind is convinced the stick is moving more than it was a great experience in f16. 

[veltro2]

On 2/10/2023 at 1:46 PM, Peedee said:

Ok, it doesn' change "everything". But,I just got the FSSB-RL MKII ULTRA base + F16SGRH V2 grip from a company called Realsimulator - who also makes simulators and equipment for the professional market.

Looking at the Realsimulator homepage you'll see that this base+stick combination is... expensive. So much about our hobby is that. And the way one controls the airplane (F16) in the sim should have a priority - I think. Expensive, but I cannot understand why Realsimulator haven't got any more attention than it has. I mean, until 14 days ago, I've heard about Virpil, Winwing, Thrustmaster, VKB, Saitek, CH, Logitech.... lots of them. But never Realsimulator. I was looking for a force sensitive stick for F16 with realistic movement, and I found Winwings solution. Which sounded nice. I also found Realsimulator, and I went for that. And I am so glad I did. 

For flying F16 sims I have used a lot different setups over the years, from just the Commodore 64 keyboard, to Spectravideo joystick in the 80's, and later to CH, Logitech, Saitek, and then finally Thrustmaster for a number of years. And then I tried Virbil Warbird base with the Thrustmaster A10/F16 grip about a year ago - and that was much better than the all Thrustmaster solution. That Warthog joystick base... not very good compared to the Virpil. My opinion only, of course. 

But now, with this Realsimulator force sensing combo - wow!! It totally blows everything else out of the water. Flying with a stick that moves the same amount as the real F16, and uses force sensing input - that in itself feels incredible. And the level of precision on this thing - and all different ways you can customize how your force input should be interpreted by the MKII Ultra base and software - and then sent to the sim--- wow! There so much the cover in that topic, and right now I dont´t have the time. But feel free to ask questions. I've been playing flight simulator/games and combat sims since the very early 80's. This is just incredible. 

But - there is a but - this combo makes most sense if F16 is a plane that you fly a lot. I have it mounted to the right in my "cockpit" - like in the real thing. But I also have a center mounted Virpil Warbird base for A-10 (using the Thrustmaster grip there) and F18 (got the Thrustmaster grip for that one too), and helos and everything else. If F16 is something you are into, then.. check it out if you haven't already.

Realsimulator is a well know company for Home Cockpitbuilders, but it is too expensive. With 900€ you can buy 2 WinWing FSB F16 Base and Stick (With force sensing and realistic movement) Why do you not consider that solution?

There is another option, and this is the one I use: A Thrustmaster Cougar, with Vipergear VFS (Force Sensing), same project of Arendt White Eagle (A well Known F16 Cockpit builder of ViperCore) who sadly died some years ago. Some Holland guys took the old FCC Force Sensing (The White Eagle one) for the Cougar and rebulit it from scratch and in metal, for the half the price of the RealSimulator one. Same Feeling like the real one. Unfortunately they run out of business, but an American Company : The Invictus Cockpit System, has buyed the rights and the project and they started to rebuilt the VFS for the Cougar (And they are working for one fo the warthog). 

Edited March 24, 2023 by veltro2

[Falconeer]

On 2/10/2023 at 1:55 PM, freehand said:

I used to have the saitek X65F and in the other sim was very nice in the f16 when flying your mind is convinced the stick is moving more than it was a great experience in f16. 

I had the X65, loved the feeling when flying, but hated the stick itself. It was way to large for my hands and i needed to lift my hand to press the top buttons

[Peedee]

3 hours ago, veltro2 said:

Realsimulator is a well know company for Home Cockpitbuilders, but it is too expensive. With 900€ you can buy 2 WinWing FSB F16 Base and Stick (With force sensing and realistic movement) Why do you not consider that solution?

There is another option, and this is the one I use: A Thrustmaster Cougar, with Vipergear VFS (Force Sensing), same project of Redneck (A well Known F16 Cockpit builder) who sadly died some years ago. Some Holland guys took the old FCC Force Sensing (The RedNeck's one) for the Cougar and rebulit it from scratch and in metal, for the half the price of the RealSimulator one. Same Feeling like the real one. Unfortunately they run out of business, but an American Company : The Invictus Cockpit System, has buyed the rights and the project and they started to rebuilt the VFS for the Cougar (And they are working for one fo the warthog). 

 

I did consider the Winwing. But I went for Realsimulator. I could not test either before ordering, so I had to read reviews and customer experiences. Both how the joysticks operate, software solution, how you can customize things, the Realsmulator having the right forward angle for the grip, and much much more, and also customer service. One I had to wait 10-20 days for after ordering (Winwing), the other I could get on my door the day after ordering.  Also Realsimualtor have been making force sensing stick for a long time, and as far as I can find out, Winwing just released their first one. That doesn`t mean Winwing isn`t good or of good quality. I wouldn`t know because I could not test either. So many things considered... I chose Realsimulator. They deliver to the professional marked, and I found the Norwegian Airforce on their customer list too. Being a Norwegian I thought it can`t be a too bad company. Hopefully. I had the money. Seriously if money was into my descision, I would not buy any of them and be happy with my Virpil base and Thrustmaster grip (which I am happy with for other airplanes of course). 

I might go for a Winwing solution for the F16 throttle. They look nice.

[void68]

I got the Winwing FS F-16. You are right, force sensing changes everything. However in my case it took just a mere week from China to central Europe and an additional 100€ for VAT and tax.

[AlexCaboose]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:49 AM, veltro2 said:

Realsimulator is a well know company for Home Cockpitbuilders, but it is too expensive. With 900€ you can buy 2 WinWing FSB F16 Base and Stick (With force sensing and realistic movement) Why do you not consider that solution?

There is another option, and this is the one I use: A Thrustmaster Cougar, with Vipergear VFS (Force Sensing), same project of Redneck (A well Known F16 Cockpit builder) who sadly died some years ago. Some Holland guys took the old FCC Force Sensing (The RedNeck's one) for the Cougar and rebulit it from scratch and in metal, for the half the price of the RealSimulator one. Same Feeling like the real one. Unfortunately they run out of business, but an American Company : The Invictus Cockpit System, has buyed the rights and the project and they started to rebuilt the VFS for the Cougar (And they are working for one fo the warthog). 

 

WinWing doesn't compare quality wise with RealSimulator. I've owned multiple RS and WW products over the last 3 years, and in terms of customer service, build quality, and software quality, RS is far ahead. The WW products are often lacking refinement or are just flat out inaccurately modeled. There are design flaws in their products that cannot be ignored for how much they cost. Sure, they are cheaper, and sure, you could get two of them. But that doesn't mean they match up.

[darkman222]

The Winwing force sensing base does not feel right to me. I own both. Winwing and RS. The Winwing base feels like you can move it and then it suddenly stops moving but is still force sensing.

While the RS one accepts pressure throughout while giving the same amount of resistance.

[Peedee]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:05 PM, AlexCaboose said:

WinWing doesn't compare quality wise with RealSimulator. I've owned multiple RS and WW products over the last 3 years, and in terms of customer service, build quality, and software quality, RS is far ahead. The WW products are often lacking refinement or are just flat out inaccurately modeled. There are design flaws in their products that cannot be ignored for how much they cost. Sure, they are cheaper, and sure, you could get two of them. But that doesn't mean they match up.

Thanks, this was also my impression after reading as much as I could abouth them on various forums before I chose the Realsimulator solution

[darkman222]

The Winwing throttles and stick grips are good too. I just talk about the force sensing base from which the RS is the far superior one.

[void68]

Am 23.2.2023 um 12:31 schrieb darkman222:

The Winwing force sensing base does not feel right to me. I own both. Winwing and RS. The Winwing base feels like you can move it and then it suddenly stops moving but is still force sensing.

While the RS one accepts pressure throughout while giving the same amount of resistance.

That's a feature. You can choose between 3 different settings:

a) 5mm movement like a default stick and then force sensing

b) no movement and only force sensing

c) just movement (I think, can't verify at the moment)

 

I read that a) is the real steel feeling of the F16 as they noticed that pilots like micromovement over micropressure but that can be wrong(*). Telling from personal use a) works very very well. Can't say anything negative about the Winwing yet apart from the lack of a proper programming software other than 3rd party. It's still compatible to usual "movement" joystick behaviour by deconstructing the MFSSB and put the different springs and CAM back into the body. China quality seems to have improved to somewhat... menacing. Complete F-16 set throttle and stick for 770€.

 

edit: * just read at the RS homepage itself that my assumption is right. There is real movement, so Winwing (and RS) is reflecting this correctly. Also the Winwing FS can be adjusted on how much force input is needed for what output.

Edited February 28, 2023 by void68

[darkman222]

1 hour ago, void68 said:

c) just movement (I think, can't verify at the moment)

This is the most realistic option. I might need to look into the base, might need to be set up in some way. Didnt spend too much time with the Winwing base as the RS base felt correct all the time to me.

At the moment with the Winwing force sensing base, I get movement, then it stops but still more pressure will give higher input. And it should not stop the movment until the full pressure wich means maximum output value is reached. As I said, I might need to look into the base.

[Vortex225]

Completely agree with OP; a proper force-sensing stick makes a tremendous difference for the DCS Viper module.

 

I love my Realsimsulator (RS) R3L and recommend it to anyone who flies the Viper regularly in DCS (or BMS).

[void68]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb darkman222:

... with the Winwing force sensing base, I get movement, then it stops but still more pressure will give higher input. And it should not stop the movment until the full pressure wich means maximum output value is reached. As I said, I might need to look into the base.

I might be wrong, but itsn't it meant to move that 5mm for microcorrection, hit the boundary and then it's only the force "on top". You need very little force to move the stick what makes it fine for ... fine tuning, while after a certain amount of movement you need force?

I think that's exactly like it's in the F16? Perhaps we misunderstand each other. Well, give the Winwing a closer look into its configuration, perhaps it might help :).

[darkman222]

2 hours ago, void68 said:

 hit the boundary and then it's only the force "on top"

Not really sure about it either. But for all the years I was thinking that the quarter of an inch movement refers to if the the full movement is reached the maximum input or controlsurface deflection is demanded.

Hmm it feels like small movement and force on top is the first time I hear about this concept.

Maybe we have an F16 maintainer around here who can clarify.

[AlexCaboose]

From the RS website you can see the IRL limits, but it’s between 3-6mm of movement. 

[void68]

Zitat

"Originally, the side-stickcontroller was non-moving, but this proved uncomfortable and difficult for pilots to adjust to, sometimes resulting in a tendency to 'over-rotate' during takeoffs, so the control stick was give a small amount of 'play'." Pike, John "F-16 Fighting Falcon"

From the Winwing site, haven't found the original quote, however. Telling from my experience I can confirm that the extra movement comes in quite handy.

[Scott-S6]

On 3/1/2023 at 11:01 AM, void68 said:

I might be wrong, but itsn't it meant to move that 5mm for microcorrection, hit the boundary and then it's only the force "on top". You need very little force to move the stick what makes it fine for ... fine tuning, while after a certain amount of movement you need force?

I think that's exactly like it's in the F16? Perhaps we misunderstand each other. Well, give the Winwing a closer look into its configuration, perhaps it might help :).

No, that's not how the real unit works and also not how the RS works. There should be no central slop, just gradual displacement as you apply more pressure. See the chart above where displacement is linear with force.

I have no idea why winwing went with that implementation but it's definitely not correct.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Scott-S6

[Scott-S6]

On 2/15/2023 at 6:16 PM, Peedee said:

the Realsmulator having the right forward angle for the grip, 

This is a huge problem with the winwing. Having used an RS base with a "standard" and correct 16deg grip, there is no comparison. The more upright position is just wrong.

[darkman222]

14 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

No, that's not how the real unit works and also not how the RS works.

So what youre saying, or more or less confirming is, that RS got it right, or at least at right as you can get the behavior and movement of the real F16 stick with a FFB replica. Correct?

[Scott-S6]

25 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

So what youre saying, or more or less confirming is, that RS got it right, or at least at right as you can get the behavior and movement of the real F16 stick with a FFB replica. Correct?

Yes. The RS isn't one to one but the rigid center that very slightly displaces as you add force with max force and max displacement being reached simultaneously is correct.

[ZipLine9]

Has anyone tried the RS FS for helos?

 

[Mr_sukebe]

My apologies, but I can't bring myself to read or watch any thread of video that includes the statement "this changes everything".  After all, my dog still looks the same to me.

Please don't encourage others to continue to abuse the English language in this way.

[Scott-S6]

1 hour ago, ZipLine9 said:

Has anyone tried the RS FS for helos?

 

Very tiring unless you trim constantly.  On the other hand, the instant snap back to center works well with the trimming function.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Scott-S6

[Peedee]

53 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

My apologies, but I can't bring myself to read or watch any thread of video that includes the statement "this changes everything".  After all, my dog still looks the same to me.

Please don't encourage others to continue to abuse the English language in this way.

But I got your attention, didn´t I?   Nah come on, cheer up! The Realsimulator force sensing base and stick is a big thing for me. I’ve been simming since the early 80’s and this was a huge upgrade. Huge upgrade! Also, it was a little joke in that head line, that little ;). It’s Saturday - have a beer and smile. Also, this thread got interesting with the discussion about Winwing vs Realsimulator.