addressed later in dtc NCTR how realistic is it with enemy country owning the same aircraft types

[darkman222]

Question about NCTR (Non-cooperative target recognition) used with a TMS left long press.

I have a mission with only me in a blue F16 and another blue F16 and a red F16. No AWACS. I can lock the red F16 and run a IFF interrogation on it. The blue F16 gives a green mode 4 response the red F16 gives a yellow response. So far nothing special.

 

Buf if run a NCTR on both of the aircraft the red F16 is recognized as hostile and the blue one as friendly.

So as long as NCTR works like I imagine from a preset library that tells if the recognized aircraft type is a MIG29 for example, then its hostile. If its an F16 its friendly. But these aircraft are the same type. So how does NCTR diffrentiate between hostile F16 and friendly F16.

 

 

null

null

Edited February 13, 2023 by darkman222

[Deano87]

On 2/11/2023 at 9:00 PM, darkman222 said:

So how does NCTR diffrentiate between hostile F16 and friendly F16.

But more seriously. I’m guessing the DCS implementation is simply “Display aircraft type here” and the sim automatically knows if it’s a friendly or enemy unit. It’s not actually comparing anything to a library.

[munckmb]

Maybe because of no IFF response?

[darkman222]

That does not make sense. If the IFF transponder is damaged or just off by mistake is enough to get you shot down by a coalition aircraft?

If it is that way, what the tag which was added later ( maybe by a moderator) to my post suggests, that it will be predefined in the DTC, which aircraft types are hostile and which are not, it still does not explain if it is possible to differentiate between a friendly and a hostile aircraft of the same type. Maybe I would expect some kind of "error" or "undefined" message but not a clear destinction in hostile and friendly.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by darkman222

[Chain_1]

31 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

That does not make sense. If the IFF transponder is damaged or just off by mistake is enough to get you shot down by a coalition aircraft?

Not enough by itself, there would be procedures in the SPINS/ROE that would address such a situation and hopefully prevent friendly fire.

[BIGNEWY]

Please continue to be patient, this will be addressed in the future with the DTC. 

When the DTC function is added, the same NCTR ROE assignment will be set for an aircraft type regardless of the coalition. 

thank you

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, darkman222 said:

That does not make sense. If the IFF transponder is damaged or just off by mistake is enough to get you shot down by a coalition aircraft?

IRL, if a given NCTR print does not allow differentiating (say, a MiG-29 in an operation with Polish Air Force, against the Russians), then NCTR could not be used for IFF in such situation. I think that the F-16 can be programmed to recognize that, so that it won't automatically classify such aircraft as friendly or hostile, even with one other source saying what it is (IFF always requires two factors). Depending on ROE, you might have to get close enough for VID, or use some other criteria to determine who is who.

[Sinclair_76]

On 2/13/2023 at 4:03 PM, munckmb said:

Maybe because of no IFF response?

I agree.

 

Iirc the long left on TMS does NCTR as well as an IFF spot interrogation. Sure... IFF in DCS is automagically configured but it will differentiate between blue en redfor in the end. 

Te other Viper shows Red beacuse it doesn't respond correctly to the IFF interrogation.

Disregard. After a failed IFF contact should show unknown and not hostile. So the red target should not been happening. Good catch. 

 

In the case of a bent IFF resulting in a blue on blue. Generally ROE are pretty robust and are resilient enough to exclude a single point of failure. For example an aircraft can be designated hostile after being determined by two independant modes. Visual and no/wrong mode 4. Or NCTR and not adhering to corridors. Etc.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Sinclair_76

[Schmidtfire]

I don’t really understand the issue here.

It’s well know that the NCTR and IFF process is not simulated in-depth in DCS.

NCTR and IFF (in DCS) check if the aircraft belong to Red or Blue coalition. That’s it. No, it does not get any info from the intakes/fanblades etc.

I think what Bignewy tried to state, is that with the new DTC implementation, there will be more variables. Not just a Red or Blue coalition check.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Schmidtfire

[Frederf]

If it was color X before NCTR, then it's color X after NCTR. NCTR doesn't change the symbol at all. All NCTR does is determine the machine type printed at the top of the display. This isn't a real issue.

DTC should bring theater/global NCTR library to pick between which will limit print types to only in the theater library when set to that limit.

[Scott-S6]

On 2/16/2023 at 10:16 AM, Schmidtfire said:

 

I think what Bignewy tried to state, is that with the new DTC implementation, there will be more variables. Not just a Red or Blue coalition check.

 

If an aircraft is on both sides in a conflict then your ROE on the DTC will cause an aircraft of that type with no IFF response to not be flagged as hostile. 

To be flagged as hostile will require no IFF response and NCTR to return an aircraft type listed in your ROE as enemy force only.

[Aquorys]

On 2/13/2023 at 4:24 PM, darkman222 said:

That does not make sense. If the IFF transponder is damaged or just off by mistake is enough to get you shot down by a coalition aircraft?

Yes, but no. In the real world, coalition aircraft don't fly around randomly on their own, and people don't spam out missiles at everything they see like in a computer game, so there is a lot of coordination going on to avoid friendly fire, e.g., knowing where your assets are, what they are doing, and where the hostiles are. Yes, if you don't have mode 4 for whatever reason, then there is an increased risk that you could be flagged as hostile, if a lot of other things also go wrong. And friendly fire has happened in the real world too, so occasionally, enough goes wrong at the same time for a blue-on-blue incident.

[DukeAngus]

would an f-16 even show up on an NCTR? since its engine blades are so far back and up in the intake? the same with the f18 as well.  looking head on  i cant see any engine blades. its almost like they where built that way for a reason.

  in the gulf war there where some missions during the time of day(sometime early morning like 330ish) when the iff codes would change and they made a big deal about not forgetting to change your iff codes so you didn't get shot down.   when chaos ensues it is very easy for some one to think they have fulfilled the roe, just look at the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

[Frederf]

On 3/18/2023 at 12:51 PM, Scott-S6 said:

If an aircraft is on both sides in a conflict then your ROE on the DTC will cause an aircraft of that type with no IFF response to not be flagged as hostile. 

To be flagged as hostile will require no IFF response and NCTR to return an aircraft type listed in your ROE as enemy force only.

You don't understand. IFF doesn't flag anything either way. It's not an F-18 with an integrated identity system. When you IFF or NCTR a contact you get an IFF symbol nearby and a NCTR type printout at the top center of the radar. The friend-foe radar/DL contact symbol is not affected by IFF or NCTR. When you IFF or NCTR in DCS and the symbol changes from green to yellow to red to blue to purple to polka dot: it's nonsense.

[WHOGX5]

15 minutes ago, Frederf said:

You don't understand. IFF doesn't flag anything either way. It's not an F-18 with an integrated identity system. When you IFF or NCTR a contact you get an IFF symbol nearby and a NCTR type printout at the top center of the radar. The friend-foe radar/DL contact symbol is not affected by IFF or NCTR. When you IFF or NCTR in DCS and the symbol changes from green to yellow to red to blue to purple to polka dot: it's nonsense.

It is true that AIFF responses do not correlate but using NCTR to identify the aircraft type does. Negative Mode 4 response information can be received over Link 16 though from other airframes. And you're incorrect in saying that the track symbol isn't affected by this. Even though a track has a certain ID on data link, your own aircraft classifies the target separately using the DTC loaded ID-tree based on L16 Mode 4 response information and your own NCTR interrogations. If there is a conflict like the track having a different ID in your own aircraft and on L16 or that it matches two different ID's in your own ID-tree, the contact will start flashing.

[Frederf]

Ah, I see ATDT. OK, IFF doesn't affect ID but type can provided that's enabled and defined. That's an interesting situation. Until there are customizable type sovereignty rules, probably best to leave TS not enabled. That way type sovereignty doesn't impact display at all. Ownship IFF being never a factor (offboard being IFF or anything else is kinda irrelevant since offboard AI just knows).

Without offboard help it would be UNK -> UNK.

With offboard help it would be similarly unchanged.

Maybe DCS World could do a quick scan of friendly/enemy/other plane types in the mission and build a dynamic ATDT based on the mission? That would require more work but needs no customizability on user end.