[DCS: J-8II] More Details of J-8PP and Q&A

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, LowRider88 said:

Yeah, I assume it would be like the JF-17, and now the J-8 ,right?  Of course they would not share the active versions.

 

Yep, I think the CJ-6 would sell well both in the east and west.  Lot’s of love for it in the US.

There’s also a rivalry between it and the Yak, which we already have in DCS, so that rivalry could move online too.

If they had an armed CJ-6 and an armed T-28, that would be a cool what if scenario.

 

 

Oh, I've found myself in-between both sides on the Yak-52 vs. CJ-6A argument.

The clear answer?

Putting the Yak-52's Vedeneyev M-14p on a CJ-6.

[LowRider88]

15 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Oh, I've found myself in-between both sides on the Yak-52 vs. CJ-6A argument.

The clear answer?

Putting the Yak-52's Vedeneyev M-14p on a CJ-6.

I haven’t flown either, but I have heard that before also.

Although, I also have heard that engine is not too reliable:

But anyway, let’s not stray too off topic on the J-8 here.

[EnvyC]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:48 AM, LowRider88 said:

Yeah, I assume it would be like the JF-17, and now the J-8 ,right?  Of course they would not share the active versions.

JF17, despite the Chinese avionics, is not a Chinese aircraft and it was never in service with PLAAF.

[LowRider88]

6 minutes ago, EnvyC said:

JF17, despite the Chinese avionics, is not a Chinese aircraft and it was never in service with PLAAF.

It’s a Chinese aircraft in that it was mainly designed and built by Chinese, with some feedback from Pakistan.

If China had to (e.g. ran out of J-10s and had to make something quicker) they could spin up a few FC-1s.

So yeah, it is.

[Pede]

4 hours ago, LowRider88 said:

It’s a Chinese aircraft in that it was mainly designed and built by Chinese, with some feedback from Pakistan.

If China had to (e.g. ran out of J-10s and had to make something quicker) they could spin up a few FC-1s.

So yeah, it is.

So incredibly incorrect. For one this is a massive oversimplification, the JF17 was derived from the Super-7 project which was equal parts American and Chinese. Secondly the finished JF17 uses parts from across the world, soviet engines and cannon, American RWR and ejection seat and Pakistani firmware. They could not "spin up a few FC-1's", because they'd have to buy engines from Russia, RWR's and seats from the US and get permission from Pakistan to use their firmware. Furthermore, China doesn't have even trained pilots to fly them because they don't operate the jet. This is essentially the equivalent of calling the Japanese F-2, South Korean FA-50, or Taiwan's F-CK-1 "American jets" because the US was involved in their development. 

[PLAAF]

1 hour ago, Pede said:

So incredibly incorrect. For one this is a massive oversimplification, the JF17 was derived from the Super-7 project which was equal parts American and Chinese. Secondly the finished JF17 uses parts from across the world, soviet engines and cannon, American RWR and ejection seat and Pakistani firmware. They could not "spin up a few FC-1's", because they'd have to buy engines from Russia, RWR's and seats from the US and get permission from Pakistan to use their firmware. Furthermore, China doesn't have even trained pilots to fly them because they don't operate the jet. 

Utterly non-sense. 
The Russian engine was picked just for convenience at the time.. Now the WS-13 engine will be used. RWR isn't American. 
Super-7 was a Chinese project with some assistance from the US, which they didn't do much beyond the design of the wing root extension.
The project was choosen to be an export only project only because the introduction of J-10 and J-11B, which proven to be vastly superior.
Pakistan firmware??? hahaha. It is an export plane, of course it uses the firmware from the customer. And that's very much on every weapon exported by China as China doesn't want others to connect into their system.

1 hour ago, Pede said:

This is essentially the equivalent of calling the Japanese F-2, South Korean FA-50, or Taiwan's F-CK-1 "American jets" because the US was involved in their development. 

Exactly what you are doing.
As far as I know, Pakistan can't produce the jet independently. 42% of its components are beyond Pakistan's understanding and production. Yet China can produce them and export them independently. Of course, recently Chinese decided to up the ante with their assistance to Pakistan, teach them how to produce the jet and ceased JF-17 's  production in China. But that's another matter entirely. By the way, if you want to discuss this issue, you should go to the JF-17 section, not here. This is completely off the typic. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by PLAAF

[LowRider88]

9 hours ago, PLAAF said:

Utterly non-sense. 
The Russian engine was picked just for convenience at the time.. Now the WS-13 engine will be used. RWR isn't American. 
Super-7 was a Chinese project with some assistance from the US, which they didn't do much beyond the design of the wing root extension.
The project was choosen to be an export only project only because the introduction of J-10 and J-11B, which proven to be vastly superior.
Pakistan firmware??? hahaha. It is an export plane, of course it uses the firmware from the customer. And that's very much on every weapon exported by China as China doesn't want others to connect into their system.

Exactly what you are doing.
As far as I know, Pakistan can't produce the jet independently. 42% of its components are beyond Pakistan's understanding and production. Yet China can produce them and export them independently. Of course, recently Chinese decided to up the ante with their assistance to Pakistan, teach them how to produce the jet and ceased JF-17 's  production in China. But that's another matter entirely. By the way, if you want to discuss this issue, you should go to the JF-17 section, not here. This is completely off the typic. 

 

You are just as reliable as Deka 

Thanks, it great when grand assertions with faulty research are countered.

Equal parts?  No trained pilots?  No concept of tech transfer and no understanding of historical capability to build onto and eventually enhance those legally purchased tech?

People nowadays don’t take breaths before speaking.

[Pede]

8 minutes ago, LowRider88 said:

You are just as reliable as Deka 

Thanks, it great when grand assertions with faulty research are countered.

Equal parts?  No trained pilots?  No concept of tech transfer and no understanding of historical capability to build onto and eventually enhance those legally purchased tech?

People nowadays don’t take breaths before speaking.

Originally sent as a DM because it is entirely off topic as it is not related to the J8 in any form, however I'm fairly well read on the JF17 since it's the main module I fly in DCS:

 

Sending it to you directly so we don't waste a thread; 

WS-13 integration was canceled for the JF17 in favor of a modernized RD93 (https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/07/09/russia-confirms-progress-on-new-jet-engine-is-it-for-pak-jf-17-fighter.html)

The JF17 uses a derivative of the ALR-67 by Northrup Grumman (there are many sources for this so not bothering to list one)

Because only Pakistan operates the JF17 and their firmware is Pakistani, all JF17's have Pakistani firmware unlike something like the J10 which has Chinese firmware in the service of the PLAAF but customers' firmware when exported. 

 

It is true that Pakistan lacks the facilties to domestically produce the jet, however because the JF17 uses parts and systems from multiple countries, no country can produce the entire jet domestically. Additionally these other jets mentioned also have multiple parts and systems made abroad then imported, the F2 for example has 40% of its parts made in the US meaning that Japan cannot domestically produce the jet without assistance, but it is still a Japanese jet because they are the sole operators. 

[PLAAF]

15 minutes ago, Pede said:

Originally sent as a DM because it is entirely off topic as it is not related to the J8 in any form, however I'm fairly well read on the JF17 since it's the main module I fly in DCS:

 

Sending it to you directly so we don't waste a thread; 

WS-13 integration was canceled for the JF17 in favor of a modernized RD93 (https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2020/07/09/russia-confirms-progress-on-new-jet-engine-is-it-for-pak-jf-17-fighter.html)

The JF17 uses a derivative of the ALR-67 by Northrup Grumman (there are many sources for this so not bothering to list one)

Because only Pakistan operates the JF17 and their firmware is Pakistani, all JF17's have Pakistani firmware unlike something like the J10 which has Chinese firmware in the service of the PLAAF but customers' firmware when exported. 

 

It is true that Pakistan lacks the facilties to domestically produce the jet, however because the JF17 uses parts and systems from multiple countries, no country can produce the entire jet domestically. Additionally these other jets mentioned also have multiple parts and systems made abroad then imported, the F2 for example has 40% of its parts made in the US meaning that Japan cannot domestically produce the jet without assistance, but it is still a Japanese jet because they are the sole operators. 

I told you to go to the JF-17 section. This thread is not for JF-17. 
You claim you don't want to waste a thread, then why did you send this post to my private message and yet still post here?

Pakistan don't want to use WS-13 was for their logistical reasons, not because JF-17 wasn't designed to have a Chinese Engine in mind. and the rest I don't even bother to respond. They just  have a few bit and pieces which were out source by the customer, doesn't make JF-17 a Pakistan plane.  

If you buy a phone from Huawei, a particular model that only for export and not for sale in side China. After you bought it, you replace its ear piece and sim card with ones which made by Nokia. And download the chrome web browser firmware...... sorry, I meant software to replace the original 360 browser. Does that make the phone a Nokia phone or the US phone. That's how absurd you argument was. So please don't waste everybody's time.  

Edited February 22, 2023 by PLAAF

[carss]

Not sure if it's been asked before but will a refueling probe also be included? Some of the other versions have them, I know this one doesn't but same kinda applied to the JF-17. The block 2 had it but it was still added to this one in game

[LowRider88]

On 2/17/2023 at 4:00 AM, uboats said:

Q: What is Peace Pearl Program?

A: In brief, during the 1980s China was unable to develop advanced air-to-air radar or semi-active radar missiles at that time, thus turned to UK, France, Israel and the United States to upgrade the J-8II in terms of fire control and weapons, and eventually selected the U.S. AN/APG-66(V) radar for the modification. In the agreement between the U.S. and China, the U.S. should provide 55 sets of production modifications (50 kits and 5 backup) and 4 prototype sets. The total estimated cost of the contract was $501,754,733, and the contract was finally signed with the U.S. on October 30, 1986. China called it "Project 82", while the U.S. called it the "Peace Pearl Program".

 

Q: How many J-8PP has been produced?

A: In 1987, the Chinese technical support team arrived in the America. The following year, the design work was completed in cooperation with Grumman. On January 20, 1989, China shipped two J-8II, a static test nose and supporting equipment and technical documentation to America. In 1990, the modification of the two J-8II was completed and China provided a revised English flight manual as requested by the U.S. test pilot, and the aircraft was in complete condition. The avionics test and EMC test were completed, and the start-up and test-run was done at Grumman Bethpage Airport. In the same year, the contract was terminated by China. The next year, the U.S. handed over two prototypes and modification packages to China. The two aircraft now reside in Beijing and Shenyang, but the full-size nose now in Kansas, USA.

null

One of the two in Beijing. Note the extra cooling inlets on fuselage for upgraded avionic devices

The other one in Shenyang

 

Q: What kind of info is shown on HUD/HDD? How many HDDs?

A: HUD and HDD should be familiar to everyone. The HUD of J-8PP adopts the F-16A/B style, and a combined glass is added to increase the instantaneous field of view. The HDD is the F-16C/D style, which is located on the right side of the front panel. The HDD is used to monitor system functions, select weapons and modes.

HUD Display

HDD Menu

 

Q: Is RWR domestic or American? Is it easy to use?

A: It's domestic, and similar to SPO-10. It can only be used to distinguish the signal type (search/lock), rough direction, whether the irradiation is approaching or not. Relatively primitive.

 

Q: The J-8II is so similar to the SU-15, is there any connection between the two?

A: The J-8, the predecessor of J-8II, was actually designed by China after imitating MiG-21. The Soviet Union did not provide China with any technical information on SU-15. Part of the technology of J-8II came from MiG-23 and F-4, and its appearance may be similar to the convergent evolution caused by the relatively close ecological niche.

 

Q: Are there any flight characteristics or defects of the J-8II, and are there any changes in the flight characteristics of the J-8PP?

A: The most characteristic feature of J-8II is that it can easily reach the maximum IAS speed and maximum Mach number in level flight (unlike some third-generation aircraft that need to dive). The delta wing also brings a very good stall characteristic, the minimum speed for maneuvering is lower than 200km/h, and the angle of attack can be greater than 30°. The J-8II has speed stability in most situations, but when it decelerates with g-load in supersonic, the aircraft has a slight nose-up characteristic.

Compared with J-8II, J-8PP only has changes in the center of gravity and weight, and some cooling inlets on fuselage have been added. It will not lead to much change to the flight characteristics.

Q: Can you introduce more about the flight control system?

A: The flight control of J-8PP has three-axis automatic stability augmentation system; pitch, roll and course holding; automatic leveling; low altitude automatic pull-up; pitch/bank automatic trimming functions.

 

Q: Is the cockpit in Chinese?

A: Except those upgraded avionic devices and corresponding panels, most are in Chinese. J-8PP uses metric unit. We will provide EN and CN localization for hint of clickable switches.

 

Q: Will it provide visual/performance cockpit for selection like DCS: JF-17?

A: Yes.

 

Q: Can players perform flights beyond the safety margin specified in the manual, such as reproducing the overspeed phenomenon during the J-8II test? 

A: Although the manual stipulates the maximum Mach number 2.2, due to the better thrust characteristics of the turbojet engine at a large Mach number, it is easy to overspeed. The right envelope of the aircraft is mainly limited by aerodynamic stability and aerodynamic heating. You will experience uncontrollable side-slip phenomenon after exceeding M2.35.

 

Q: What weapons can J-8PP carry?

A: Air-to-air weapons include PL-5, PL-8, Aspide/PL-11; Air-to-ground weapons include 250Kg GP bomb, 57mm/90mm rockets. Check below figure for details

 

Q: DCS: J-8II module price?

A: Not as expensive as DCS: JF-17.

 

Q: How's the documentation? Especially for such an aircraft with only two produced (modified).

A: We cannot make anything out of nothing.

 

Q: Does J-8PP have HOTAS?

A: The weapon control system of J-8PP is simplified AN/AWG-27. Therefore, the throttle was also modified to F-15 style.

 

Q: What's the difference between APG-66(V)-PRC-F8 and APG-66(V)?

A: The main detection performance remains the same. Since it's to upgrade J-8II air-to-air capability, most AG modes (SEA1, SEA2, BCN) were removed (Money was definitely one of many reasons).

 

Q: What about datalink?

A: There's one similar to Lazur-M GCI system. But we will not model it in game. The IFF and countermeasure systems of J-8PP will be simplified in game.
 

===================================

If you have any question that was not covered by Q&A, please leave a comment and I will try my best to answer.

Our whole team thank you for your support!

 

 

 

Hi @uboats, would you have any details about the J-8II’s flaps?  Are they maneuvering, Fowler type flaps, like the real MiG-19, or blown flaps like the MiG-21?

[uboats]

1 hour ago, LowRider88 said:

Hi @uboats, would you have any details about the J-8II’s flaps?  Are they maneuvering, Fowler type flaps, like the real MiG-19, or blown flaps like the MiG-21?

neither

[LowRider88]

32 minutes ago, uboats said:

neither

Okay, thanks anyway.

I think I found the answer.

https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/71635450308585702/

[PLAAF]

On 2/17/2023 at 8:00 PM, uboats said:

Q: DCS: J-8II module price?

A: Not as expensive as DCS: JF-17.

Don't worry, we will make up for your trouble. Like always, each of us will buy 3 copies from you. One for self-use, one for keeping as a part of our collection and one for spreading as a religion. 
建议大家都买3份，一份自用，一份作收藏，一份用来传教。
 

On 2/17/2023 at 8:00 PM, uboats said:

Q: What about datalink?

A: There's one similar to Lazur-M GCI system. But we will not model it in game. The IFF and countermeasure systems of J-8PP will be simplified in game.
 

Please reconsider this. Without the Datalink, it just wouldn't be as realistic. Please keep everything that is in real life as much as you can.

 

[LowRider88]

5 minutes ago, PLAAF said:

Don't worry, we will make up for your trouble. Like always, each of us will buy 3 copies from you. One for self-use, one for keeping as a part of our collection and one for spreading as a religion. 
建议大家都买3份，一份自用，一份作收藏，一份用来传教。

I have done this also for diecast models of the J-8II.

[Dr_Pavelheer]

Razbam has already implemented something similar in M2000, and their another project, Mig-23, will have Lazur. Would be nice if there was a possibility of some kind of collaboration or if ED included that in the base game as API

[TEOMOOSE]

What do we know about the Aspide/PL-11, How it compares to other sarh missile ?

[F-2]

5 minutes ago, TEOMOOSE said:

What do we know about the Aspide/PL-11, How it compares to other sarh missile ?

The original is like an AIM-7E but with an inverse monopulse seeker, like Aim-7m. It’s a lot like skyflash BUT all fins can articulate independently and as such it’s supposedly much more maneuverable.

[LowRider88]

On 2/17/2023 at 4:00 AM, uboats said:

Q: What is Peace Pearl Program?

A: In brief, during the 1980s China was unable to develop advanced air-to-air radar or semi-active radar missiles at that time, thus turned to UK, France, Israel and the United States to upgrade the J-8II in terms of fire control and weapons, and eventually selected the U.S. AN/APG-66(V) radar for the modification. In the agreement between the U.S. and China, the U.S. should provide 55 sets of production modifications (50 kits and 5 backup) and 4 prototype sets. The total estimated cost of the contract was $501,754,733, and the contract was finally signed with the U.S. on October 30, 1986. China called it "Project 82", while the U.S. called it the "Peace Pearl Program".

 

Q: How many J-8PP has been produced?

A: In 1987, the Chinese technical support team arrived in the America. The following year, the design work was completed in cooperation with Grumman. On January 20, 1989, China shipped two J-8II, a static test nose and supporting equipment and technical documentation to America. In 1990, the modification of the two J-8II was completed and China provided a revised English flight manual as requested by the U.S. test pilot, and the aircraft was in complete condition. The avionics test and EMC test were completed, and the start-up and test-run was done at Grumman Bethpage Airport. In the same year, the contract was terminated by China. The next year, the U.S. handed over two prototypes and modification packages to China. The two aircraft now reside in Beijing and Shenyang, but the full-size nose now in Kansas, USA.

null

One of the two in Beijing. Note the extra cooling inlets on fuselage for upgraded avionic devices

The other one in Shenyang

 

Q: What kind of info is shown on HUD/HDD? How many HDDs?

A: HUD and HDD should be familiar to everyone. The HUD of J-8PP adopts the F-16A/B style, and a combined glass is added to increase the instantaneous field of view. The HDD is the F-16C/D style, which is located on the right side of the front panel. The HDD is used to monitor system functions, select weapons and modes.

HUD Display

HDD Menu

 

Q: Is RWR domestic or American? Is it easy to use?

A: It's domestic, and similar to SPO-10. It can only be used to distinguish the signal type (search/lock), rough direction, whether the irradiation is approaching or not. Relatively primitive.

 

Q: The J-8II is so similar to the SU-15, is there any connection between the two?

A: The J-8, the predecessor of J-8II, was actually designed by China after imitating MiG-21. The Soviet Union did not provide China with any technical information on SU-15. Part of the technology of J-8II came from MiG-23 and F-4, and its appearance may be similar to the convergent evolution caused by the relatively close ecological niche.

 

Q: Are there any flight characteristics or defects of the J-8II, and are there any changes in the flight characteristics of the J-8PP?

A: The most characteristic feature of J-8II is that it can easily reach the maximum IAS speed and maximum Mach number in level flight (unlike some third-generation aircraft that need to dive). The delta wing also brings a very good stall characteristic, the minimum speed for maneuvering is lower than 200km/h, and the angle of attack can be greater than 30°. The J-8II has speed stability in most situations, but when it decelerates with g-load in supersonic, the aircraft has a slight nose-up characteristic.

Compared with J-8II, J-8PP only has changes in the center of gravity and weight, and some cooling inlets on fuselage have been added. It will not lead to much change to the flight characteristics.

Q: Can you introduce more about the flight control system?

A: The flight control of J-8PP has three-axis automatic stability augmentation system; pitch, roll and course holding; automatic leveling; low altitude automatic pull-up; pitch/bank automatic trimming functions.

 

Q: Is the cockpit in Chinese?

A: Except those upgraded avionic devices and corresponding panels, most are in Chinese. J-8PP uses metric unit. We will provide EN and CN localization for hint of clickable switches.

 

Q: Will it provide visual/performance cockpit for selection like DCS: JF-17?

A: Yes.

 

Q: Can players perform flights beyond the safety margin specified in the manual, such as reproducing the overspeed phenomenon during the J-8II test? 

A: Although the manual stipulates the maximum Mach number 2.2, due to the better thrust characteristics of the turbojet engine at a large Mach number, it is easy to overspeed. The right envelope of the aircraft is mainly limited by aerodynamic stability and aerodynamic heating. You will experience uncontrollable side-slip phenomenon after exceeding M2.35.

 

Q: What weapons can J-8PP carry?

A: Air-to-air weapons include PL-5, PL-8, Aspide/PL-11; Air-to-ground weapons include 250Kg GP bomb, 57mm/90mm rockets. Check below figure for details

 

Q: DCS: J-8II module price?

A: Not as expensive as DCS: JF-17.

 

Q: How's the documentation? Especially for such an aircraft with only two produced (modified).

A: We cannot make anything out of nothing.

 

Q: Does J-8PP have HOTAS?

A: The weapon control system of J-8PP is simplified AN/AWG-27. Therefore, the throttle was also modified to F-15 style.

 

Q: What's the difference between APG-66(V)-PRC-F8 and APG-66(V)?

A: The main detection performance remains the same. Since it's to upgrade J-8II air-to-air capability, most AG modes (SEA1, SEA2, BCN) were removed (Money was definitely one of many reasons).

 

Q: What about datalink?

A: There's one similar to Lazur-M GCI system. But we will not model it in game. The IFF and countermeasure systems of J-8PP will be simplified in game.
 

===================================

If you have any question that was not covered by Q&A, please leave a comment and I will try my best to answer.

Our whole team thank you for your support!

 

 

 

Hi @uboats,

Any reason why the J-8II would be fitted with a ground attack angled gun, when at this stage of its service it was still aimed at air defence, and does not have air to ground radar?  Should the gun be more configured like the MiG-21?

[PLAAF]

10 hours ago, F-2 said:

The original is like an AIM-7E but with an inverse monopulse seeker, like Aim-7m. It’s a lot like skyflash BUT all fins can articulate independently and as such it’s supposedly much more maneuverable.

So, in your opinion, how well does it compare to things like R-24 or Super 530F or the AIM-7F?

Edited February 28, 2023 by PLAAF

[F-2]

4 hours ago, PLAAF said:

So, in your opinion, how well does it compare to things like R-24 or Super 530F or the AIM-7F?

 

Less range then AIM-7F but with better look down capability and better at getting maneuvering targets close to it.

 

better range and look down then Super 530f but slower, also probably similarly more agile.

 

R-24 similar speed but PL-11 should have better range and maneuverability. Both are inverse monopulse, I think PL-11 is better in real life but I think they will have similar guidance for dcs purposes 

[PLAAF]

9 hours ago, F-2 said:

Less range then AIM-7F but with better look down capability and better at getting maneuvering targets close to it.

 

better range and look down then Super 530f but slower, also probably similarly more agile.

 

R-24 similar speed but PL-11 should have better range and maneuverability. Both are inverse monopulse, I think PL-11 is better in real life but I think they will have similar guidance for dcs purposes 

I see. Thanks very much for the info. 
What about the AIM-7L/M, how are they compared to the AIM-7F in terms of range? 

[F-2]

6 minutes ago, PLAAF said:

I see. Thanks very much for the info. 
What about the AIM-7L/M, how are they compared to the AIM-7F in terms of range? 

Range between AIM-7F and AIM-7M should be near identical, it’s mostly the seeker that’s different.

[uboats]

On 2/27/2023 at 4:57 PM, LowRider88 said:

Hi @uboats,

Any reason why the J-8II would be fitted with a ground attack angled gun, when at this stage of its service it was still aimed at air defence, and does not have air to ground radar?  Should the gun be more configured like the MiG-21?

TBH, i don't know.

On 2/27/2023 at 3:17 PM, PLAAF said:

Don't worry, we will make up for your trouble. Like always, each of us will buy 3 copies from you. One for self-use, one for keeping as a part of our collection and one for spreading as a religion. 
建议大家都买3份，一份自用，一份作收藏，一份用来传教。
 

Please reconsider this. Without the Datalink, it just wouldn't be as realistic. Please keep everything that is in real life as much as you can.

 

forum account ban is not as realistic as jail

[Torbernite]

58分钟前，uboats说：

TBH, i don't know.

forum account ban is not as realistic as jail

Could it be modded in a simplified or hypothetical way like M2000C?  And a special option to disable it for those hate that.