Will the USN/USMC version be a separate module?

[Kalasnkova74]

4 hours ago, Omega417 said:

There is also the cultural side of things, significantly more -E models were made and exported to every freedom loving country we could force to buy them.

Agreed, although considering Israel  used an Iraqi defector’s MiG-21F-13 as leverage to buy the F-4E Kurnass we clearly didn’t have to work hard for export orders. 

[Omega417]

7 minutes ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

 we clearly didn’t have to work hard for export orders. 

They recognized the Air Vehicle with superior engineering and quality manufacturing in the Phabulous Phantom

[exhausted]

On 2/25/2023 at 2:11 AM, WinterH said:

Stop feeding exhausted (though exhausting seems more fitting at this point) guys, he's been very salty since announcement of F-4E and can't move on. 

As for the subject, as others have said/linked, naval birds will be a separate module. Variants aren't announced yet, but if HB goes a similar timeframe as with the two E variants, they will probably be J and maybe even S. Also unknown is where will they slot in HB's releases, it looks like first two releases will be F-4E and Eurofigther, but whether it's the Intruder or Navy F-4 after that isn't clear yet. I don't think HB will give us a clear picture about it before F-4E is out, possibly even after the Eurofigther release rather.

I hear ya, but it's not like I'm simply trolling or trying to bait others into a fight. I'm only advocating for the Navy and Marine platforms because myself and others are interested in seeing the carrierborne naval fighter represented as a carrierborne naval fighter. I know a lot of people have taken this personally, but I'm okay with being a target for the Phantom. There are several issues while waiting to see if the Phantom will pan out: 

One possible issue is that unfinished DCS modules tend to stay unfinished as industry standard. Another is that even Heatblur has yet to fully deliver on its F-14 module. Yet another is that fans will get fatigued from flying the F-4E through all its early release iterations and Heatblur may just decide the Phantom is not worth further developing past the variants adapted solely around use from land. 

At the end of the day, it's absolutely fine, even encouraged, that people speak up for what they're interested in. For me and others, it's doing the Phantom right as a naval platform. Sorry if you don't all agree.

[Trooper117]

Navy, Marines, Air Force... I'll take the lot!

[Tvrdi]

Navy version was the one we heard stories about. It was THE PHANTOM. Im surprised they went with the E variant. Not to mention it was said (not promised) it will be a separate module one day but I really doubt it will ever happen....its a shame.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Tvrdi

[Raisuli]

39 minutes ago, Tvrdi said:

Navy version was the one we heard stories about. It was THE PHANTOM. Im surprised they went with the E variant. Not to mention it was said (not promised) it will be a separate module one day but I really doubt it will ever happen....its a shame.

 

Oh, I dunno.  I recall stories of Air Force Phantoms in Vietnam in between stories of the protests.  It's not really a question of 'if', it's a question of whether or not I'm going to live that long... 

I'm pretty sure by then I'll need a step-in simpit.  The 'step over' version I have now will be far too dangerous, and SWMBO will demand changes!

[Volator]

1 hour ago, Tvrdi said:

Navy version was the one we heard stories about. It was THE PHANTOM. Im surprised they went with the E variant.

Nah, maybe for the US and Brits, but the rest of the world definitely thinks of the Phantom as a land-based fighter, mostly with a gun.

[Stackup]

1 hour ago, Tvrdi said:

Not to mention it was said (not promised) it will be a separate module one day but I really doubt it will ever happen....its a shame.

I'm really tired of this "it will never happen" or "it was never promised" BS.  You are verifiably wrong and if you would just read the FAQ you would realize this.

"Yes!" is a promise, not a maybe...  If you want more reciepts about possible release times and how much heatblur cares about the naval F-4, here you go.

Here we see Cobra saying that the Naval F-4 is "not a distant afterthought"

And here we see that the subforum itself is DCS: F-4 Phantom, NOT DCS: F-4E Phantom like the current posts within that forum.  The subforum is not specific because it will cover ALL phantom variants released by Heatblur.

Now let's jump over to Discord where IronMike talks about pricing and reiterrates it will be a separate module(different aircraft) and why they will be separate.

And finally we're back to Cobra with the news (which shouldn't really come as a surprise) that the Naval Phantoms "will take precedence once the -E is complete and out of Early Access".  Wow, so just like with the F-14, they aren't really working on mulitple versions at once, they are doing the E, and then once they're done with that, they will work on a naval variant.

Is the naval variant coming after the Eurofighter and A-6?  Likely yes as Ironmike confirmed that the current release roadmap is F-4E, Eurofighter, and A-6E with the naval phantoms to then come as Cobra said after the E exits Early Access.

Again, we never see the word "if" in any of this, it's always, when, where, and how which show just like everything else that they have promised a Naval F-4 and intend to deliver on it.  

So just learn to be patient and wait, just like everyone else is doing for every other DCS module that has been announced already and taking years to develop with little news.  The A-6 for example, which was announced before the F-4E and before Heatblur took over the Eurofighter, and we still don't have the AI model.  Or the 10 year on-off development of the Strike Eagle.  Or literally any other DCS module for that matter, this stuff takes time and whining NEVER makes the module you want release faster.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Stackup
typo

[Zad Fnark]

I'm hoping the Cs and Ds will carry along with the naval variants.  The C wasn't much different from the B anyway.

[exhausted]

1 hour ago, Zad Fnark said:

I'm hoping the Cs and Ds will carry along with the naval variants.  The C wasn't much different from the B anyway.

This would have made plenty of sense, then they could have gone off and done the special variants people are asking for: J, S, E, G, K. 

3 hours ago, Tvrdi said:

Navy version was the one we heard stories about. It was THE PHANTOM. Im surprised they went with the E variant. Not to mention it was said (not promised) it will be a separate module one day but I really doubt it will ever happen....its a shame.

 

I would tend to agree... promises or not, the devs are not bound to deliver anything that is not being sold or binding them contractually. All the info about doing a proper naval variant is purely speculative at this point.

[Tvrdi]

3 hours ago, Stackup said:

I'm really tired of this "it will never happen" or "it was never promised" BS.  You are verifiably wrong and if you would just read the FAQ you would realize this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You must be kidding me. They promised F14D and F14A-95 which never happened in RL...Besides who would buy almost the same plane two times?. Aerges was very fair with so many Mirage F1 variants they released as promised. Do I enjoy heatblurs F14? Yes, its great module. But serious business is making promises a real thing!

 

 

@exhaustedQ: Will there be a Navy F-4?
A: Yes! Our Phantom journey only begins with the -E. However, owing to the complexity of the work and investment of time and effort, it will not be included in the DCS: F-4E product. We’re instead choosing to focus on providing the most content rich F-4E we possibly can, and then set our sights on further telling the legendary story of the F-4

Edited November 6, 2023 by Tvrdi

[Kalasnkova74]

2 hours ago, Zad Fnark said:

I'm hoping the Cs and Ds will carry along with the naval variants.  The C wasn't much different from the B anyway.

Yet there are still differences to account for. One is the landing gear & wings. The C uses thicker tires, resulting in a thicker wing to accommodate the larger tires used on the land based variant. In turn that affected the wing lift and turn performance vs the Naval -B variant.  It’s enough to create a handling difference based on feedback from Naval pilots that flew both USAF (F-4C) and Naval (F-4B) versions.

The Sidewinder loadout was also different.l, as the USAF and USN employed different Sidewinder missiles after the AIM-9B. 

[Stackup]

23 minutes ago, Tvrdi said:

You must be kidding me. They promised F14D and F14A-95 which never happened in RL

No I am not kidding and you must be terribly misinformed, they never ever promised an F-14D and have repeatedly stated as much so often that it has become a meme at this point.  This is an actual example of "We'd like to do a D and B/U, but we do not have the information necessary to do so to DCS standards".  The F-14A-95GR to my understanding was the block designation given to the Iranians, where did you hear that wasn't real life?  They have also repeatedly said the Iranian F-14 is a bonus version (Which wasn't in the original announcment I might add) and is going to be the Early 135GR with some systems disabled, not an exact replica of an Iranian Tomcat.

25 minutes ago, Tvrdi said:

Besides who would buy almost the same plane two times?

Me and I assume others as well.  For those who don't buy the E because they wanted a Naval F-4, there's Heatblur's market to make and sell one.  And as Heatblur has repeated, the Naval and Air Force Phantoms are different enough to warrant a separate module.  They would know more about that subject than either of us since they are in the business of making modules and listening to their customers.  Others besides you have expressed very strong anti-F-4E sentiments and very pro-navy F-4 sentiments.  They have seen this and knew it would happen which is why they already beat you to the punch in the FAQ stating they are making a Naval F-4 as well.  The same thing happened with complaints about Jester, now we are getting a much imporved and scriptable Jester AI.  the same thing also happened with the IRIAF Tomcat where there was much clamoring for one and they added it to the F-14 as a bonus.

[SgtPappy]

11 hours ago, Tvrdi said:

Navy version was the one we heard stories about. It was THE PHANTOM. Im surprised they went with the E variant. Not to mention it was said (not promised) it will be a separate module one day but I really doubt it will ever happen....its a shame.

 

Not this again...

Yes the Naval F-4 was incredible and I think I'd prefer an F-4J over the hard-wing F-4E which was the main E version in Vietnam.

But there's logic to the choice. By production numbers, tonnage dropped, aircraft lost and A2A victories, countries served and time in service the F-4E is the definitive F-4 for most nations whether anyone likes this or not, it is a fact.

And I know this will fall on a few deaf ears but I'll reiterate this again - that doesn't make the F-4E better, or more significant, or more practical or whatever compared to the excellent Navy F-4. These are just facts that the "wtf, why would they choose the F-4E" crew doesn't seem to want to accept.

If a design evolves into something else it evolves into something else. Some seem obsessed with the idea that the F-4 isn't being represented in its original design form and purpose which is true, but it only makes sense to present this as a travesty (which it isn't) if you forget about all the other stuff I mentioned about the E above.

 

 

My goal isn't convince you that the F-4E is better (I know it's not, it's just different), but to inform you better so you can empathize why the F-4E was chosen. You don't have to agree with the choice but to not at least understand the choice is to close your eyes, block your ears and go "lalalalala" and I know you're not that kind of person right?

Oh and one last thing, if anyone despises the F-4E so much, just pretend its a totally different jet! Easy. I want a FF F-15C but you don't see me telling the world that the F-15E was the wrong or surprising choice. RAZBAM simply decided to make that specific plane - a different one than the purely A2A version that the design was orignally made for. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by SgtPappy

[Nealius]

11 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

But there's logic to the choice. By production numbers, tonnage dropped, aircraft lost and A2A victories, countries served and time in service the F-4E is the definitive F-4 for most nations whether anyone likes this or not, it is a fact.

I hope some day we'll get leading edge flap options to better reflect this. I'm seeing a lot of photos of mixed slatted Es and leading-edge-flap Es in service with most countries, and in some cases (Japan) the slatted Es were never in service, only the versions with leading-edge flaps.

[Gambit21]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:45 AM, Tvrdi said:

Navy version was the one we heard stories about.

Who's this "we" you speak of?

On 11/6/2023 at 7:45 AM, Tvrdi said:

It was THE PHANTOM.

Says you.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:45 AM, Tvrdi said:

 

Im surprised they went with the E variant.

Yeah it's only the most recognizable, iconic variant in the world - SHOCKER!!

 

On 11/6/2023 at 7:45 AM, Tvrdi said:

 

Not to mention it was said (not promised) it will be a separate module one day but I really doubt it will ever happen....its a shame.

 

 

 

Have a little faith - they deserve it.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Gambit21

[ustio]

 

On 11/6/2023 at 10:45 PM, Tvrdi said:

Navy version was the one we heard stories about. It was THE PHANTOM. Im surprised they went with the E variant. Not to mention it was said (not promised) it will be a separate module one day but I really doubt it will ever happen....its a shame.

 

Whether you like it or not E version is the variant where it will sell the most. Since a lot of countries use it, so DCS users from those countries will probablly buy them unlike the navy phantom which only US and UK use them(and perhaps Spain as a stand in for their gunless Phantom).

 

Not only that, it easier for them to develop the E since they live in Europe and have access to german F-4F to scan instead of travelling to US. One of their dev from truegrit is also an ex F-4F pilot so they already have an SME from the get-go

Edited November 10, 2023 by ustio

[Biggus]

I wouldn't overplay the 'my country flew Es so it's an E I want' card.  Plenty of us here who would prefer a Navy variant happen to live in countries that flew the E.  Sure, it's a factor.  It's not the only one in favour of the E.

[JayTSX]

Not to throw oil on this fiery discussion (seems like a deja Vu as if we had this discussion in multiple threads again and again...)

I guess there decision was based on what has been said: they have an SME in their ranks so it's easier to get in development feedback or fill in knowledge gaps and the E variant is the one most commonly depicted in media. Take arcade games (yes yes all arcade games are bad I know but bear with it for a sec) before falling into the sinkhole, that we call DCS I was primarily playing arcade air combat games and I can't recall a single one where there was no F4-E... Given some "bend" the model to launch from carriers but it's easily the most depicted Version of the F4.

To add to the entire "people outside of the US or GB only know the F4-E" thing: when I was young there was a airbase operating F4-Fs not far from my Grandparents so I've seen (mostly heard first) them everytime I visited them as a child, so yes I'm from outside the US and the F4-E/F became the definition of a Military Jet aircraft for me.

Not to be confused with "The naval variant is bad" I think no one has really said (and meant it) because it's untrue. There is no good or bad in DCS some prefer the flashy 18 and 16 some the 15 I for one prefer the 14 over everything until the F4 comes around. Launching and landing on a ship is something I've never done in anything other than DCS and it's a great challenge.

My point is: Don't get too angry over the (for you) wrong version of a plane especially not if the "better" one is around the corner (DCS corner so more like the labyrinth of the minotaur worth of corners). And until then you could do some pretending to make it work for you. (Don't want a gun then don't use it something like that)

[WinterH]

2 hours ago, Biggus said:

I wouldn't overplay the 'my country flew Es so it's an E I want' card.  Plenty of us here who would prefer a Navy variant happen to live in countries that flew the E.  Sure, it's a factor.  It's not the only one in favour of the E.

I don't give a darn about my country flying this or that, it flies E, but that's not why I want it. I want E, because it is by far the more interesting, and also by far the more iconic. Contrary to what some people thing, Vietnam War isn't the only place where F-4 cut its teeth. But it is more or less the only place where Naval F-4s did anything I guess.

My country bit aside though, I sure do care that a lot more countries flown/flies the E, as that makes it much more useful in plethora of scenarios.

[SgtPappy]

7 hours ago, Biggus said:

I wouldn't overplay the 'my country flew Es so it's an E I want' card.  Plenty of us here who would prefer a Navy variant happen to live in countries that flew the E.  Sure, it's a factor.  It's not the only one in favour of the E.

Right, agreed. 

The push back however is applicable to those who are consistently saying that the E is a surprising/incorrect/illogical choice which it is not.

The Navy F-4's are equally logical - not more or less.

[Biggus]

20 hours ago, WinterH said:

 I want E, because it is by far the more interesting, and also by far the more iconic.

 

In your opinion.  And that's fine, we're all free to have different opinions.

For what little it's worth, I think the E was probably the right choice to lead with, and I'm very much looking forward to playing with it on day 1.  I'd just personally prefer a J or an S as they're far more interesting to me.

[Tvrdi]

On 11/10/2023 at 3:11 AM, Gambit21 said:

Who's this "we" you speak of?

Says you.

Yeah it's only the most recognizable, iconic variant in the world - SHOCKER!!

 

 

 

Have a little faith - they deserve it.

 

 

 

Keep playing your mind games without me.

[Top Jockey]

I admit I wasn't expecting to see this much division over the different variants of a given airframe (the F-4) ... then it sank in that, for many this is a VERY iconic bird, and the differences between variants are considerable.

So, "to each his own" and it shows the highly subjective, personal and completely legitimate reasons why people have their favorites.

 

I also appreciate the iconic Phantom, and for me almost any F-4 is 'the Phantom', as generally speaking almost any F-4 fighter / interceptor capable variant appeals to my liking. 

(Ok there are exceptions, supposing the only available variant was the RF-4E ... that wouldn't be so much appealing to me.)

 

Personal preferences related to the Phantom, either Air Force, Navy or foreign :

- internal gun (not available for Navy)

- several Air Force and Navy camouflages

- foreign camouflages: Iceland 57th FIS, Royal Navy F-4K (FG.1), etc

- the VTAS (not available for Air Force) would be ... outstanding

 

Instant example on how highly subjective people's preferences can be sometimes:

Supposing I already have the F-4E, and eventually Heatblur now releases an F-4 variant with the VTAS ... that would be an instant buy for me.

 

[exhausted]

On 11/9/2023 at 8:11 PM, Gambit21 said:

Who's this "we" you speak of?

Says you.

Yeah it's only the most recognizable, iconic variant in the world - SHOCKER!!

 

 

 

Have a little faith - they deserve it.

 

 

 

I agree with his post. The Marine and Navy jets are by far the most recognizable Phantoms, being carrierborn masters of the air and the ground. I think that those who also share that concern have shown valid reasoning here. We are not at all saying Heatblur won't do eventually do a naval Phantom in the next 5-10 years, but I would be very surprised. 

For all the expected fanfare of the F-4, just don't be surprised if you see a lot of people holding off for a proper 'tailhook' version. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by exhausted