correct as-is Toss bombing issue

[skywalker22]

Since last update, CCRP TOSS bombing just doesn't work (again). Issue: flight path marker cannot reach the solution cue to bomb release. Did many different kind of tests (faster, slower G pull-up), but nothing seem to work (and with neither bomb).

Note: I start pressing and holding the bomb release button just before going into toss (like Tricker explains it here).

PS: I also tried same thing in DTOS mode, and the same result, not dropping bombs.

And track files

f16_CCRP_toss_bombing1.trk f16_CCRP_toss_bombing2.trk

f16_CCRP_toss_bombing3_3_attempts.trkf16_DTOS_bombing4.trk

Edited April 16, 2023 by skywalker22

[Rei]

Something I noticed in Tricker's video is that he started pulling into the toss before the Toss Cue was flashing. This may not have a big effect, but instead of going off the cue it might be beneficial to go just before the cue, or immediately after it starts to hit the solution cue on the pull.

So maybe I'd try to hit the pull right when the solution cue ticks back with the vertical steering cue. 100% not supposed to normally have that tick that was shown there but it may be a short-term solution before ED jumps on it?

[_SteelFalcon_]

From the video it looks like you dont nearly pull enough G for most of your pull-up. Try to hit 4G instantly and hold it consistently, as the toss is meant for a 4G constant pull. The longer it takes and the more vertical you become, you get slower and you never reach the parameters needed for the bomb to release. It does take some practice

Edited April 16, 2023 by _SteelFalcon_

[skywalker22]

I did some more tests, and the whole point is not to pull 4G, but to be at all time of the pull-up on the Horizontal bar (horizontal bar is the indicator of pull-up rate).

What I also found out, is setting Release Angle up to 30, makes releasing toss bombs way, way easier (whole process is not as difficult and precise as when using higher angles).

 

I also managed to release bombs at Release Angle of 35, 40 and 45, but its so damn hard, specially keeping the FPM on horizontal bar all the time of pull-up.

So now, what can be wrong? If we suppose to have a constant pull-up of 4Gs, there is something wrong with the travel of Horizontal Bar indicator, because if you don't follow it, you will never be able to release bomb(s).

[skywalker22]

Look at this, it was almost perfect pull-up, and no bomb release. 45deg release angle. Almost mission impossible to release bombs over 30deg.

f16_CCRP_toss_bombing5_45deg_NOT_OK_2.trk

[peanuts0441]

Its meant to be released at 30 degrees

For higher angles you have to do it from a further distance (6-7NM instead of 4-5), you were too close to the target

[firimar]

for me toss works at low altitudes only like 100-200 feet, but doesn't work at all at altitudes like 5k or 10k, though I do same things with same parameters

 

[skywalker22]

7 hours ago, firimar said:

for me toss works at low altitudes only like 100-200 feet, but doesn't work at all at altitudes like 5k or 10k, though I do same things with same parameters

 

At low altitude, does it also work at angles higher then 30deg (40,45, or higher)? Because to me it seem to be closer to mission impossible. @BIGNEWY I would strungly suggest that you try toss by your self, there is definitely something not right, please.

ps: if you check my tracks, you can see there is nothing wrong with my technique, if it is, can someone please show/explain how it should be done correctly. 

[firimar]

7 часов назад, skywalker22 сказал:

At low altitude, does it also work at angles higher then 30deg (40,45, or higher)?

never tried that, I use angles like 20-30deg

[skywalker22]

1 hour ago, firimar said:

never tried that, I use angles like 20-30deg

Please try higher angles, you will see how hard, or more close to impossible it is.

[Frederf]

CCRP/DTOS/delayed CCIP can release at any angle (45, 60, 90, 120). The problem is that if you are near the maximum toss range and anything goes wrong which reduces toss range then you will get no solution because at no point is the projected impact close enough to the designated target to allow a release. You see that the solution cue gets really, really, really close to the FPM during the maneuver. You were just outside of toss range the entire time. Notice the "44" for predicted release angle which appears both before and after (but not while passing) 44 degrees.

The max toss cue is based on a lot of assumptions that you may or may not comply with and let's be honest it might not be 100% accurate. It should also be noted that 45 degrees is not the maximum toss angle if the release point is above the target in elevation. I know we learned 45 is maximum in grade school but it's only correct for the same elevation beginning to end. If you try to toss something from 10,000' to 0' a 45 degree angle will have less range than a smaller angle. The toss range of 35 degrees is very very close to the maximum (like 90%) and has much better tolerance to ensure release. Plus you spend less time up above the deck getting shot at in seconds.

In a perfect world one should be able to meet the assumptions exactly and release at 44.999999 degrees but that prediction is perfect and/or that pilot will achieve agreement with assumptions exactly are not high confidence.

[skywalker22]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:25 PM, Frederf said:

CCRP/DTOS/delayed CCIP can release at any angle (45, 60, 90, 120). The problem is that if you are near the maximum toss range and anything goes wrong which reduces toss range then you will get no solution because at no point is the projected impact close enough to the designated target to allow a release

Man! You are the man. I never actually knew I can drop bombs later (closer to the target) when the max toss anticipation cue ends flashing. Everyone is telling & showing to start pulling up exactly into toss when that cue (circle) ends flashing. Your explanation was perfect! And I also now understand the whole concept. God damn, you saved my day, if not a year

Tested, flew straight for 5 more seconds and then went into toss - and you won't believe, bombs went off my wings in my very 1st attempt.

Finally one with some correct information.  Thanks so much mate, I buy you a beer if we 2 ever meet. 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by skywalker22

[_SteelFalcon_]

to be fair, the cue is called MAX toss cue, not "ONLY toss cue"  

[wraith70]

45 degree release angle.  I wait 5 seconds after the cue stops flashing, pull my 4Gs  and I hit my targets all the time.  Thanks

 

EDIT:

Ok.  After some testing at different altitudes, It seems that below 1000 feet, I'm successful with a 30 degree release angle.

Above 1000 feet a 45 degree release angle works fine for me

Edited July 21, 2023 by wraith70
Additional testing

[silverdevil]

i did a test for myself yesterday. 10 CBU-97. DTOS 20 deg. altitude 7500. pull up was about 5 miles which is close. 5 of 6 T-55 in a circle destroyed. F16-IA-Sinai-AG_Practice

[Keight]

On 7/22/2023 at 3:46 PM, silverdevil said:

i did a test for myself yesterday. 10 CBU-97. DTOS 20 deg. altitude 7500. pull up was about 5 miles which is close. 5 of 6 T-55 in a circle destroyed. F16-IA-Sinai-AG_Practice

7500' was your altitude or burst altitude? Asking becase whenever I change default BA of 1500 to something else bombs fall long and far away from target.

[silverdevil]

1 hour ago, Keight said:

7500' was your altitude or burst altitude? Asking becase whenever I change default BA of 1500 to something else bombs fall long and far away from target.

7500 was altitude before pull-up. Burst was 1500. Pulled 20 degrees. When I watched the tacview some did seem to fall short. Another thing I do is ripple pairs, 5 pulses, 100 feet apart. That makes up for the shortfall.

[Keight]

I see. Then it must be a bug or setting BA other than default is not implemented yet.