Spherical Earth Map

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Perhaps that’s what “Spherical Earth” means to DCS, not “global”. 

Global map is also coming, but it does seem like those are two distinct technologies, and while whole Earth map is definitely coming in a few years, Spherical Earth technology will likely come out much sooner. Then they'll build on it to make the whole Earth map.

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Global map is also coming, but it does seem like those are two distinct technologies, and while whole Earth map is definitely coming in a few years, Spherical Earth technology will likely come out much sooner. Then they'll build on it to make the whole Earth map.

Yeah probably “spherical” map is a different thing than “global” whole Earth map. 

[Weasel]

Yeah probably “spherical” map is a different thing than “global” whole Earth map. 

I also think so. A global map makes sense if you fly a bomber and have to fly thousands of miles into the target area. Whereas a spherical map “merge“ some smaller maps to a much bigger map, say middle east, east europe etc. We have to wait to get more information in a future newsletter on this topic.

[Stackup]

The possible distinction I can see between the "spherical" and "global"/world terms is that the spherical map technology is what would allow a map developer to input the curvature of the Earth into the map design.  This would then allow the map to be grafted directly onto the global map to create areas of high detail the same way it's already being done on civilian sims.  This would also explain why the current maps can't just be slapped onto the global map.

[Northstar98]

On 1/15/2024 at 10:40 PM, Weasel said:

I also think so. A global map makes sense if you fly a bomber and have to fly thousands of miles into the target area.

It also makes sense if you want to have maximum flexibility when choosing a theatre, the kind of flexibility you don't have on smaller regional maps.

Because:

• There are theatres wholly absent (Vietnam, Balkans, central Europe, GIUK gap etc).
• Even for theatres which we do have a map for, they sometimes will either miss important areas or won't have them present in a usable state (Caucasus misses Marneuli airbase for 2008 Russo-Georgia War; SoH/PG misses Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain; Channel misses RAF Hudson for Operation Jericho) etc.

It's use isn't solely confined to just having massive long distances.

Plus, there are several other combat games which do/are going to have world maps, even in cases where the primary theatre is concentrated on one area (Silent Hunter, Sea Power, C:MANO/C:MO etc).

Edited February 15, 2024 by Northstar98
spelling/grammar

[western_JPN]

On 1/16/2024 at 7:40 AM, Weasel said:

I also think so. A global map makes sense if you fly a bomber and have to fly thousands of miles into the target area. Whereas a spherical map “merge“ some smaller maps to a much bigger map, say middle east, east europe etc. We have to wait to get more information in a future newsletter on this topic.

In my thought,
Spherical map will bring realistic Great-circle navigation for strategic bombing or reconnaissance.
Global but Flat map cannot implement Great-circle navigation about flying from Moscow to NY over Greenland in example.

[draconus]

9 hours ago, western_JPN said:

In my thought,
Spherical map will bring realistic Great-circle navigation for strategic bombing or reconnaissance.
Global but Flat map cannot implement Great-circle navigation about flying from Moscow to NY over Greenland in example.

Proper navigation systems are already simulated (ex. for F-14) so you won't really see any difference and neither visuals on spherical map except maybe some ship sinking under horizon on your tpod.

[Antonisrho]

I was a bit disappointed that there was no reference at all to the spherical/world map in the "2024 and beyond" about progress or any estimated timeframe. I understand that currently, it's Vulkan and ray tracing, rendering, and cloud improvements they are focusing on (neither of which is a small thing!!!) but still, it would be nice to get an acknowledgment of progress update and maybe some teasing details! 

[draconus]

2 hours ago, Antonisrho said:

...it would be nice to get an acknowledgment of progress update and maybe some teasing details!

Quote

Spherical Earth. One of the biggest changes coming to DCS is the Spherical Earth. This substantial work is ongoing however we do not expect to release it this year due to the size of the endeavour.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/341284-official-news-2024/?do=findComment&comment=5365197

Edited January 18, 2024 by draconus

[Northstar98]

On 1/17/2024 at 2:11 PM, draconus said:

Proper navigation systems are already simulated (ex. for F-14)

I strongly doubt any navigation system in DCS is calculating for great circles as all it would do on a flat map is make longer routes - the exact opposite of what it would do on a sphere.

[draconus]

On 1/19/2024 at 10:20 AM, Northstar98 said:

I strongly doubt any navigation system in DCS is calculating for great circles as all it would do on a flat map is make longer routes - the exact opposite of what it would do on a sphere.

Doubt no more. It's here:

https://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#inertial-navigation-mode

and here:

https://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#steering

 

[Northstar98]

8 minutes ago, draconus said:

Doubt no more. It's here:

https://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#inertial-navigation-mode

and here:

https://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#steering

Well that's certainly interesting, I'd love to test it as great circles aren't applicable to flat maps and would have the direct polar opposite of their intended effect on them.

[Dragon1-1]

On 1/15/2024 at 11:40 PM, Weasel said:

I also think so. A global map makes sense if you fly a bomber and have to fly thousands of miles into the target area. Whereas a spherical map “merge“ some smaller maps to a much bigger map, say middle east, east europe etc. We have to wait to get more information in a future newsletter on this topic.

It's not that. "Spherical Earth" technology is likely what allows terrain to be curved, and nothing else. While this will allow larger maps (or rather, make them behave sensibly, SA is already well past the point where it should be spherical), it has nothing to do with merging anything. It just allows the map to conform to Earth's actual shape. This is why Vietnam is waiting for the technology, to cover the conflict, the map would have to be enormous, more than big enough for spherical shape to significantly affect it.

Worth noting, making a spherical map is a huge paradigm shift for physics calculations. For one, gravity no longer works in one Cartesian direction - down is towards the center of the sphere. This means a lot of calculations are affected, most notably artillery and rocket ballistics. Horizon becomes a thing, as well, which will be very important for naval operations. DCS currently fakes a horizon visually pretty well, but that's an imperfect approach.

[zerO_crash]

I am curious if ED has looked into the possibility of using maps provided by Maxar. Apparently, the company being among the top dogs on the market, have endless possibilities with regards to layering, detail, AI-generated topography and basically a photorealistic scenery. Question is of course how it would potentially interact with DCS´s engine, however I´m sure that they would adjust the export format on a whim. I have to say, Maxar´s work looks too fantastic to not have a look at it. It would be quite the something to have actual, photrealistic maps (detail down to 20cm) for the whole globe. The addition of multiple layers, such as to have access to information that modern military has (albeit with respect to confidenciality), would be amazing.

Edited January 27, 2024 by zerO_crash

[Hammer_251]

  So, if I understand correctly, all the cash we spend on these current maps means we will lose in the global map? I thought the existing maps would be incorporated in the global map eventually, isn't that what Wags said in the interview or ...

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Hammer_251 said:

  So, if I understand correctly, all the cash we spend on these current maps means we will lose in the global map? I thought the existing maps would be incorporated in the global map eventually, isn't that what Wags said in the interview or ...

No, you won't lose your maps or your money and no, they will not be part of new global map, because they differ in tech and detail level.

[rob10]

11 hours ago, Hammer_251 said:

  So, if I understand correctly, all the cash we spend on these current maps means we will lose in the global map? I thought the existing maps would be incorporated in the global map eventually, isn't that what Wags said in the interview or ...

The existing maps definitely WILL NOT be incorporated into the world map.  They are made with different technology which makes them incompatible with each other as it is currently, and since world map will be massively different they definitely won't integrate with it.

As draconus said, the old maps won't disappear (you should still be able to use them), but they won't be part of the global map.  I don't think even ED knows exactly how they are going to handle the overlap when it eventually comes out.  We have no idea yet if world is going to have "optional" detailed areas or how that will work.

[Mike_Romeo]

On 6/2/2024 at 6:20 AM, Hammer_251 said:

  So, if I understand correctly, all the cash we spend on these current maps means we will lose in the global map? I thought the existing maps would be incorporated in the global map eventually, isn't that what Wags said in the interview or ...

The global map will co exist with the other maps.

[Hammer_251]

Thanks, roger that.

[Bosun]

Wondering if they're going to utilize any systems similar to MFSF 2024 - the AI-procedurally-generated-from-Satellite-imagery biomes and the like. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6riRXgRsCU
Watching this tech breakdown, the difference between their 2020 and 2024 terrain modeling is noticeable, and its all AI.  They've got sets of assets under each 'biome', and then trained an AI to look at satellite imagery and determine where biomes are, borders, transitions, etc, and then it automatically procedurally generates the trees, bushes, grasses, rocks, and other assets based on that, using the art assets that are categorized for the biome it has identified that terrain tile to be. This is madness.  There's nothing to stop us any more.  Once quantum computing becomes a thing, we'll look back at the Sinai map, or Afghanistan and say, 'wow, how rudimentary those were!'

Having an AI trained to procedurally generate 3d assets on a terrain to fill in based on photo or imagery and a stock of 3d models per type of terrain unlocks the limiteless potential of mapmaking. Instead of artistically or hand-placing thousands of detail assets, the AI can lay down the tiling and detail, and all the mapmaker needs to do is clean up around points of interest. 

I'm just, continually jaw-to-floor at the technology nowadays.  

ChatGPT, make me a flight sim. 
"Making you a flight simp" 
No ono noo nononono that's not what....dangit.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Bosun

[Squiggs]

On 6/24/2024 at 12:41 AM, Bosun said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6riRXgRsCU
Watching this tech breakdown, the difference between their 2020 and 2024 terrain modeling is noticeable, and its all AI.  They've got sets of assets under each 'biome', and then trained an AI to look at satellite imagery and determine where biomes are, borders, transitions, etc, and then it automatically procedurally generates the trees, bushes, grasses, rocks, and other assets based on that, using the art assets that are categorized for the biome it has identified that terrain tile to be.

Do you have a timestamp where they talk about that specifically? I can't be arsed sitting through 1.5 hours of presentation just for that one bit.

 

Also I'm not sure why everyone is excited about this spherical/globe map system - we all know the earth is flat :kek:

[Silver_Dragon]

On 6/23/2024 at 3:41 PM, Bosun said:

Wondering if they're going to utilize any systems similar to MFSF 2024 - the AI-procedurally-generated-from-Satellite-imagery biomes and the like. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6riRXgRsCU
Watching this tech breakdown, the difference between their 2020 and 2024 terrain modeling is noticeable, and its all AI.  They've got sets of assets under each 'biome', and then trained an AI to look at satellite imagery and determine where biomes are, borders, transitions, etc, and then it automatically procedurally generates the trees, bushes, grasses, rocks, and other assets based on that, using the art assets that are categorized for the biome it has identified that terrain tile to be. This is madness.  There's nothing to stop us any more.  Once quantum computing becomes a thing, we'll look back at the Sinai map, or Afghanistan and say, 'wow, how rudimentary those were!'

Having an AI trained to procedurally generate 3d assets on a terrain to fill in based on photo or imagery and a stock of 3d models per type of terrain unlocks the limiteless potential of mapmaking. Instead of artistically or hand-placing thousands of detail assets, the AI can lay down the tiling and detail, and all the mapmaker needs to do is clean up around points of interest. 

I'm just, continually jaw-to-floor at the technology nowadays.  

ChatGPT, make me a flight sim. 
"Making you a flight simp" 
No ono noo nononono that's not what....dangit.

 

Do you remember MSFS dont has capability from use systems and weapons? And ED has working on your propper "Whole earth" technology from some years ago?

[average_pilot]

On 6/23/2024 at 4:41 PM, Bosun said:

Wondering if they're going to utilize any systems similar to MFSF 2024 - the AI-procedurally-generated-from-Satellite-imagery biomes and the like. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6riRXgRsCU

It gave me the impression VR is going to be an afterthought again, even an annoyance