Being able to see contacts...

[Predator-78]

I am happy with the new Normandy map and have also bought the Spitfire module. I play at a higher resolution than 1080 and have had great difficulty seeing enemy planes at a distance. Flying with a friend who has a 1080 resolution he was able to see contacts on the horizon before me. I understand that it is a resolution problem but how can it be solved? Are the developers aware of this situation? Can such a situation negatively affect the game?

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Predator-78

[peachmonkey]

18 hours ago, Predator-78 said:

I am happy with the new Normandy map and have also bought the Spitfire module. I play at a higher resolution than 1080 and have had great difficulty seeing enemy planes at a distance. Flying with a friend who has a 1080 resolution he was able to see contacts on the horizon before me. I understand that it is a resolution problem but how can it be solved? Are the developers aware of this situation? Can such a situation negatively affect the game?

 

yes, and it does, and no, devs aren't looking into this because according to them 'everything is OK'.

Meanwhile, you can use the below mod (passes IC check in MP) to get you on the same level of spotting as the 1080p players.

 

[Predator-78]

If I knew earlier about this big problem I would NOT have bought Normandy 2.0 and another WW2 module. Playing without being able to see your contacts is frustrating and takes away the fun that only those with low resolution get. If a normal user was able to create a mod to solve the problem, I don't understand why the developers didn't. The problem exists and it is quite serious.

Inviato dal mio SM-G998B utilizzando Tapatalk

[peachmonkey]

13 hours ago, Predator-78 said:

If I knew earlier about this big problem I would NOT have bought Normandy 2.0 and another WW2 module. Playing without being able to see your contacts is frustrating and takes away the fun that only those with low resolution get. If a normal user was able to create a mod to solve the problem, I don't understand why the developers didn't. The problem exists and it is quite serious.

Inviato dal mio SM-G998B utilizzando Tapatalk
 

all we can do is continue to voice our frustrations to ED. The fact they haven't included this mod into IC as of yet is puzzling. My optimistic side thinks that ED finally accepted it as a problem and wants to keep the MP community pacified with the mod. The pessimistic side of me thinks they simply don't care about either IC or the spotting issue, aka business as usual.

[Why485]

14 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

The pessimistic side of me thinks they simply don't care about either IC or the spotting issue, aka business as usual.

I have been talking about this issue on these forums for at least 8 years. According to ED, there is no issue. Chizh himself also says, that DCS is better than reality with regards to spotting.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Why485

[Ala13_ManOWar]

And it is, indeed. IRL you don't see a damn thing up there  . It's just that being a game, and mostly a combat game, competitiveness makes people want to see things which just pass unseen IRL.

On top of that, the hardware problem, not every hardware is the same or shows the same, either on screen or VR though VR is better since proportionally its pixels are humongous compared to high resolution screens.

A bit of everything and probably more things I'm not even considering and there you go, "spotting in DCS is bad", even though it's the most realistic out there with regards to that.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Why485]

1 hour ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

even though it's the most realistic out there with regards to that

I disagree.

[peachmonkey]

3 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

And it is, indeed. IRL you don't see a damn thing up there  . It's just that being a game, and mostly a combat game, competitiveness makes people want to see things which just pass unseen IRL.

On top of that, the hardware problem, not every hardware is the same or shows the same, either on screen or VR though VR is better since proportionally its pixels are humongous compared to high resolution screens.

A bit of everything and probably more things I'm not even considering and there you go, "spotting in DCS is bad", even though it's the most realistic out there with regards to that.

 

I get your point, but you are surrounded by crutches in this and any other flight sim. Somehow getting the most realistic setting for spotting seems like a departure from the overall flavor.

There are multitudes of problems with spotting, one of them being lack of any sort of contrast at medium distances. The object simply merges with the surrounding space. Saying that it's realistic is then saying that the pixelated non-true color landscape with lack of true light sources is also realistic. Your assessment is pretty one sided.

[Gunfreak]

On 5/16/2023 at 3:47 AM, Predator-78 said:

If I knew earlier about this big problem I would NOT have bought Normandy 2.0 and another WW2 module. Playing without being able to see your contacts is frustrating and takes away the fun that only those with low resolution get. If a normal user was able to create a mod to solve the problem, I don't understand why the developers didn't. The problem exists and it is quite serious.

Inviato dal mio SM-G998B utilizzando Tapatalk
 

In VR you can easily spot bogey at 20nm or more even with high resolution. But you'll have a very hard time telling a P51 appart from a Me109 even at a few hundred yards.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Gunfreak

[MAD-MM]

On 5/16/2023 at 3:47 AM, Predator-78 said:

If I knew earlier about this big problem I would NOT have bought Normandy 2.0 and another WW2 module. Playing without being able to see your contacts is frustrating and takes away the fun that only those with low resolution get. If a normal user was able to create a mod to solve the problem, I don't understand why the developers didn't. The problem exists and it is quite serious.

Inviato dal mio SM-G998B utilizzando Tapatalk
 

Also huge impact on your spotting ability is the Antialasing, would suggest "no" Antialasing at all or two times at max. That helps alot! 

[peachmonkey]

1 hour ago, MAD-MM said:

Also huge impact on your spotting ability is the Antialasing, would suggest "no" Antialasing at all or two times at max. That helps alot! 

lack of Antialiasing makes any map look like the blinking and shimmering Las Vegas, it simply looks like ass..

[peachmonkey]

oh well, ED put this mod behind IC check.

good luck everyone, we're back to being blind in MP.

[KoN]

On 5/18/2023 at 5:17 PM, peachmonkey said:

oh well, ED put this mod behind IC check.

good luck everyone, we're back to being blind in MP.

Yes and tonight player base was down to half the numbers . 

One step forward three back for ED  .

Not impressed with DCS. 

Can't believe how quickly they squashed this mod .

Yet years of complaining from the community and nothing from ED . 

 

[peachmonkey]

26 minutes ago, KoN said:

Yes and tonight player base was down to half the numbers . 

One step forward three back for ED  .

Not impressed with DCS. 

Can't believe how quickly they squashed this mod .

Yet years of complaining from the community and nothing from ED . 

 

true, however there's some good news that came out of this mod discussion. Per nineline they've actually integrated some parts of the mod into the game and are testing it out (you can see his response in the patch comments), hopefully there'll be an actual improvement when it's released (hopefully soon, again per nineline).

[Digitalvole]

There’s a video by spudknocker where he is dogfighting a friend (he is in an F14 and his friend is in a F5) who’s dad was a Tomcat pilot.

You can hear the dad talking as they dogfight and at one point you can hear him (only just) say the spotting in DCS is not good. That was “case closed” for me.

I play in VR and can spot things from a distance, but find they disappear at medium range.

Isn’t the issue that DCS doesn’t simulate light reflecting? I have no idea how they’d go about doing that.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Digitalvole

[KoN]

9 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

true, however there's some good news that came out of this mod discussion. Per nineline they've actually integrated some parts of the mod into the game and are testing it out (you can see his response in the patch comments), hopefully there'll be an actual improvement when it's released (hopefully soon, again per nineline).

Really that's great news I fly VR and DCS looks amazing but I can tell you its got harder too see things That's air targets and Ground targets  .

I'm sure my eye sight is getting bad . 

But that's great news . 

3 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

There’s a video by spudknocker where he is dogfighting a friend (he is in an F14 and his friend is in a F5) who’s dad was a Tomcat pilot.

You can hear the dad talking as they dogfight and at one point you can hear him (only just) say the spotting in DCS is not good. That was “case closed” for me.

I play in VR and can spot things from a distance, but find they disappear at medium range.

Isn’t the issue that DCS doesn’t simulate light reflecting? I have no idea how they’d go about doing that.

 

Yes same here I can see at distance but once in combat range they disappear . ED should give people to test this new spotting mod ,  not just the ED testers then your get a Fair point and view across . I have spent $1000 of dollars on this sim . Let alone the hardware and others have spent way more than me . ED needs to look after its player base .

The tide is turning against companies that choose to Dis its customers . 

Edited May 22, 2023 by KoN

[Gunfreak]

7 hours ago, KoN said:

Really that's great news I fly VR and DCS looks amazing but I can tell you its got harder too see things That's air targets and Ground targets  .

I'm sure my eye sight is getting bad . 

But that's great news . 

Yes same here I can see at distance but once in combat range they disappear . ED should give people to test this new spotting mod ,  not just the ED testers then your get a Fair point and view across . I have spent $1000 of dollars on this sim . Let alone the hardware and others have spent way more than me . ED needs to look after its player base .

The tide is turning against companies that choose to Dis its customers . 

 

Not when the companies have close to monopoly. 

[KoN]

6 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Not when the companies have close to monopoly. 

That's changing . 

Edited May 22, 2023 by KoN

[Ala13_ManOWar]

On 5/17/2023 at 3:34 AM, peachmonkey said:

There are multitudes of problems with spotting, one of them being lack of any sort of contrast at medium distances. The object simply merges with the surrounding space. Saying that it's realistic is then saying that the pixelated non-true color landscape with lack of true light sources is also realistic. Your assessment is pretty one sided.

Yep, we agree. My point is, among other considerations, for instance that effect of "disappearance" due to matching lighting with the surroundings, even though the contact can be even really close to you, actually happens IRL, exactly the same. Maybe it could be tweaked a bit? Could be, I guess. Can it be assured it happens in the exact same manner on every PC/Screen available and to every user? I hardly doubt. Hence, the effect itself happens and is realistic, a lot, though if it doesn't happen in the exact same way to everyone it's a real bummer with regards to online "competition", which is what I mentioned. Bearing in mind the "competitive" side of online game, it makes sense we all should see the same. Totally agree with that. But just saying "it's not realistic" as some say is just a mistake from people who might have not flown ever, or even if they have they didn't pay attention to that detail, so it's actually a depart from the real problem which should be making the sighting equal to all players. But realistic? It is absolutely realistic. Annoying in an online competitive environment where you know anyway VR people (for instance, but many other factors also play a role here) see better than you? Yes, totally annoying. But that's not because it's unrealistic, the problem with DCS spotting is precisely it's so real, not the contrary, but we all don't use same hardware, same graphic settings, same all and sadly that makes an insurmountable difference among players. How could they tackle that? I haven't the faintest, I'm no software developer.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[peachmonkey]

22 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

But realistic? It is absolutely realistic.

you keep making this statement and I really don't understand what your baseline is. Inattentive blindness?  I agree with you on all other points, except for generalizing VR players into a single category of "VR players see better than you", which isn't true. VR is split into the same two camps as 1080p potato quality (1st gen VR hardware, Oculus civ1, Original Vive) and 2k/4k (HP G2,Varjo, Pimax), with the latter group having exactly the same spotting issues as the monitor players.

Nobody is arguing that it should be hard tracking objects, i.e. the realism due to the lack of attention. However, what we are arguing is how hard it is to re-acquire the target after it's lost. I can be tracking a freaking Ju88, being 1nm behind him/higher than him, I turn away my head for a split second, and when I try to reacquire the target it simply vanishes in front of my eyes, i.e. fully blending in with the surrounding colors, and that is the problem that I'm trying to point at.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

4 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

you keep making this statement and I really don't understand what your baseline is. Inattentive blindness?

Yeah, no, I meant more literally, it actually happens the very same IRL. Sometimes lighting plays a trick on you and you literally stop seeing that contact right in front of you, maybe a glare, maybe colours matching surroundings, but you just stop seeing it. I don't really know why, maybe multiple reasons, but it happens. And my experience is in GA mostly, so mainly white planes, and still it happens. Of course there it is not a question about online scores, but for safety reasons you should care whenever it happens. Maybe, and I'm guessing here, it's some sort of psychological effect where your brain keeps looking that last spot you knew and since it mingles with the environment, even for a fraction of a second, you stop seeing it just because for a time your brain keeps searching for a different thing than it looks like afterwards, or something on the like.

The problem with replicating that kind of effect in a PC game is, how do we know everybody sees the very exact same under the very exact same circumstances on a myriad of possible hardware and software settings? Is that even feasible?

 

4 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

However, what we are arguing is how hard it is to re-acquire the target after it's lost. I can be tracking a freaking Ju88, being 1nm behind him/higher than him, I turn away my head for a split second, and when I try to reacquire the target it simply vanishes in front of my eyes, i.e. fully blending in with the surrounding colors, and that is the problem that I'm trying to point at.

Ok, that's a different question. Yes, here I believe the trick is on one's mind. Reacquiring a contact after having lost it, that, while affected by the aforementioned effects of course, is more of a mental and training thing. Same for the second scenario you set. Once lost a contact one freaks out and of course as the old adagio said, when you can't see a lost contact it's on your six. In the case of a bomber as you say, it's usually you're closer to it than you think, hence you can't see it without perspective, not to mention the loss of track about situational awareness, the position your contact is, the direction it flies, and same to you so you make guestimate where it should be… and it isn't there. I believe that's more related to how the mind works, and the fact that we're mostly in front of a screen with a tracking device. It'd be nice to know if people using VR also report a better overall situational awareness than screen players with regard to that, though I believe that can happen also IRL.

 

A very interesting question, indeed, but I don't really think I have an answer. I only know those effects are mostly realistic, no matter how annoying they are to all of us. The crucial matter to me is that we're sure those effects are the exact same to everyone so it's doesn't play a kind of exploit to some while others only get annoyed. It should be annoying to everybody as it is IRL, so we all are even on multiplayer.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[peachmonkey]

2 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

A very interesting question, indeed, but I don't really think I have an answer. I only know those effects are mostly realistic, no matter how annoying they are to all of us. The crucial matter to me is that we're sure those effects are the exact same to everyone so it's doesn't play a kind of exploit to some while others only get annoyed. It should be annoying to everybody as it is IRL, so we all are even on multiplayer.

 

indeed it's an interesting topic, hence why there are countless discussions about it.

As far as the reacquiring the targets training, there was a post a while back how FPS shooters help the real life marines/army soldiers to train on object tracking in reality. I.e. the subtle differences in the shades of gray/black allow the young troops to hone in their skills in target identification in the dusk/dark conditions. Obviously, FPS are a different genre from the flight-sims, but as far as one can deduct from the above mentioned report it still comes down to the 'shades of gray' differentiation, i.e. just pure ability for the eye to recognize the difference against the backdrop. If there is no difference then it's pretty much invisible.   Obviously you'd need to conduct a qualitative analysis of human's ability to see the different shades of gray within a certain setting, however in general there's no 'magic' to spotting objects, i.e. it's all about how much contrast there is between the object and the background.   

i'm enjoying this discussion, but if you feel we are just spinning wheels i'll put it to rest.   Cheers, mate.

[Gunfreak]

17 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

 2k/4k (HP G2,Varjo, Pimax), with the latter group having exactly the same spotting issues as the monitor players.

 

No we don't. I use a G2 and can spot dots from like 20-30nm away.

No moods used.

[KoN]

11 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

No we don't. I use a G2 and can spot dots from like 20-30nm away.

No moods used.

Yes we do . 

At the end of the day ED are doing something about it which is good news . 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by KoN