SA-342 Gazelle 2023 "FM" Update

[FlankerKiller]

Question, I can't roll it. It just gose crazy if I try. I thought the Gazelle was like the Apache and could do rolls and inverted in a split S. Am I doing something wrong? Is the real one not capable of those kind of aerobic maneuvers? Or is this something that is still being worked out with the FM. In normal parameters this thing is flying really well right now. 

[Shadok]

52 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

Question, I can't roll it. It just gose crazy if I try. I thought the Gazelle was like the Apache and could do rolls and inverted in a split S. Am I doing something wrong? Is the real one not capable of those kind of aerobic maneuvers? Or is this something that is still being worked out with the FM. In normal parameters this thing is flying really well right now. 

I was just coming to the forum to ask if anyone had ever made a successful stall turn with the gazelle

I haven't managed to make anything clean yet, and this is not a problem with ah-64, mi8 or huey (the helos are more stable). Maybe it's in relation with the Transverse flow effect, but I don't really thing so. Or maybe I just very bad...

Edited July 30, 2023 by Shadok

[Shadok]

To be fair, a stall turn is manageable when you turn to the right and don't try to put the chopper's horizontal axis perpendicular to the ground (something like 75° max).

Edited July 31, 2023 by Shadok

[flyingscotsman]

Hi, 

Been using the Gazelle since day it was released, have had some minor problems with control, most of my own making. However, since the update last week I'm totally out of control

Using Hotas joystick, with throttle, using throttle as collective, right side, Throttle left side.  It has always kinda 'leapt' into the air, and a couple of weeks back it was not so jumpy, great.

But the last update happened, I only have to move the collective a few millimeters and I'm 20 feet up, not only that, it is oscillating wildly like a pendulum, I can get it level with right rudder for a few seconds but any movement of the joystick and the oscillation get worse, I've just had my first inverted few seconds before I exploded into the tarmac.  Joystic has x/y deadzone 4 and slider at 10, thats worked fine as I previously mentioned.....can we put this back to the previous settings? Flew in the Gazelle in Northern Ireland a few times, as talking freight, really enjoyed it, it was much faster than the Scout...showing my age.

[RealDCSpilot]

12 hours ago, flyingscotsman said:

It has always kinda 'leapt' into the air,

I guess most of us are happy that those times are gone, together with the Quadcopter/UFO flight model. I would recommend doing a file check/repair and a revision of all your control options. Check the special settings for the new trim options and use RCTRL+Enter to check what your axis inputs are doing. I would also recommend resetting any curves on stick, throttle and pedals. Start with a clean linear setting and check if your devices do anything wonky on the axis display when sitting in the cockpit.
Don't forget that you have to use the correct starting trim position on the cyclic now (bit left and aft)...
On my end everything works as expected with the latest update, it's a good, believable helicopter module for DCS now. I hope they keep finetuning the flight model to give the real Gazelle the respect it deserves.

[grim_reaper68]

I personaly think that the actual FM is the most realsitic that we have for the Gazelle. In fact the first one was too "light" and the second one was too "heavy". I've never flown the real one, so I can't say if it's accurate, but I think that they are approaching the real FM. Maybe they are some minor adjustement to make, I don't know.

For flyingscotsman, maybe is a repair necessary, because if you could drop 20 ft only by lifting the collective a few millimeters, there is a problem. I've made a lot of flight since the latest update, and i need to move around 20-30% to lift it fast as you describe. So as RealDCSpilot says try a deep repair, and it would probably solve your problem. Or maybe it's a problem with the axis assignement, it could be that it has been reset by the update.

[flyingscotsman]

Hi & Thanks grim_reaper68 & realDCSpilot

                                                      That's just the kind of advice/steer I was looking for. Will do that and see what happens. Will do the repair first and then try the axis changes. Have been all over the place with curves and they made no difference, and that made no sense. So that you again

 

THANK YOU Sir's

Edited August 1, 2023 by flyingscotsman

[flyingscotsman]

realDCSpilot & grim_reaper68,

                                                         RESULT, did the repair and clean up. 

Learned about bindings, and reset everything, still rolling right, but got away 2nd attempt without almost any wild gyrations, landing was....err,,,hard, but the body was intact, so that's a landing innit!

 

Loads to learn, again, THANK YOU

[grim_reaper68]

That's about the flight dynamic of the helis. The main rotor will induce a torque effect to the heli, depending of the rotation of the rotor. if the rotor turns clockwise (CW), the fuselage wants to turn counterclockwise (CCW), and in the other direction when the rotor turns CCW. The job of the tail rotor is to counteract that. But if you observe the helis in general, the tail rotor is above the main rotor. This will induce a momentum to the heli and push it on the right ( if the main rotor turns CW) or left (main rotor CCW).when you start to lift the heli, the torque on the fuselage raise, and then you have to counterbalance it with the tail rotor. That will raise the momentum of the tail rotor and, make your heli banking either on the right (for the gazelle or other heli with CW turning rotor) or left for the other. 

I just found a video that explains the effect of the tail rotor.

 

I don't know if you have other helis in DCS, just keep in mind that the Gazelle is a light weight heli, and so, if I can say it more reactive to the aerodynamics effect than heavier helis.  

[flyingscotsman]

So we just need to get some fatter aircrew to sit on the left, I know an air force that had, probably still has loads of those, lol

[Lace]

I have to say the FM changes have now knocked the Mi-8 off the top spot and the Gazelle is my favourite helicopter in DCS.  Added to the fact I have learned the VIVIANE sight I'm now having a blast flying ultra-low level anti armour missions.  Gotta love those HOT3 missiles.

 

Well done @Polychop Simulations

[Hiob]

Yeah, I like the new FM a lot, too. (Though the Mi-8 is still my favorit - first love and so... )

HOWEVER, I once managed to get into a weird flight envelope, where she started to act wild. I dived in a left hand curve into a street canyon - rather fast - and when I tried to arrest the dive and corner to align with the street (obviously she was banking left at this point), I gave right cyclic and she banked right (hard), from there she started swinging violently from left to right with seemingly no inertia.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to save a track. I will try to reproduce it and offer a trackfile next time.

It may very well just have been PIO, but the feeling of no Inertia was very weird. 

[Lace]

4 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Yeah, I like the new FM a lot, too. (Though the Mi-8 is still my favorit - first love and so... )

HOWEVER, I once managed to get into a weird flight envelope, where she started to act wild. I dived in a left hand curve into a street canyon - rather fast - and when I tried to arrest the dive and corner to align with the street (obviously she was banking left at this point), I gave right cyclic and she banked right (hard), from there she started swinging violently from left to right with seemingly no inertia.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to save a track. I will try to reproduce it and offer a trackfile next time.

It may very well just have been PIO, but the feeling of no Inertia was very weird. 

I don't think this is specific to the Gazelle, all module FMs are a bit fuzzy around the edges, as the data only exists within a defined performance envelope.  

I've said it before but realism is a two-way street, if you want the modules to behave in a realistic way, you need to operate them in a realistic way.

[Hiob]

29 minutes ago, Lace said:

I don't think this is specific to the Gazelle, all module FMs are a bit fuzzy around the edges, as the data only exists within a defined performance envelope.  

I've said it before but realism is a two-way street, if you want the modules to behave in a realistic way, you need to operate them in a realistic way.

The maneuver I flew was absolutely in the realistic flight envelope. I never exceeded top speed nor was the dive angle extreme. I would be surprised, if Apache, Gazelle, Kiowa - Pilots wouldn't fly similar maneuvers on a battlefield to doge incoming fire.

You are right though. The FM is just code, not physics. When you reach an undefined state it may go haywire. This should be adressed and improved though, when catched.

As I said - I will try to provide a Trackfile. For the time being I will shrug it off as an one-time occurance.

[Jenrick]

On 7/30/2023 at 12:51 PM, FlankerKiller said:

Question, I can't roll it. It just gose crazy if I try. I thought the Gazelle was like the Apache and could do rolls and inverted in a split S. Am I doing something wrong? Is the real one not capable of those kind of aerobic maneuvers? Or is this something that is still being worked out with the FM. In normal parameters this thing is flying really well right now. 

I haven't tried a roll personally, but you might try kicking the SAS off.  

[Hiob]

13 minutes ago, Jenrick said:

I haven't tried a roll personally, but you might try kicking the SAS off.  

I have never seen or heard that a Gazelle can do such maneuvers. The only helicopter that I positively know, that it can do overhead maneuvers is the Bo-105. (And it needs heavy maintenance after each display)

I would also be very interested in footage of Apaches doing Split-S's. The best, that they can do - as far as I'm aware of(!) - is hammerhead-like maneuvers.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Hiob

[Holbeach]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

I have never seen or heard that a Gazelle can do such maneuvers. The only helicopter that I positively know, that it can do overhead maneuvers is the Bo-105. (And it needs heavy maintenance after each display)

I would also be very interested in footage of Apaches doing Split-S's. The best, that they can do - as far as I'm aware of(!) - is hammerhead-like maneuvers.

 

You can't straight roll a Gazelle because it has a floppy rotor and any negative G will destroy it, unlike a B 105 which has a solid rotor and can take up to -1 G.

You can barrel roll a Gazelle, (in DCS), providing you keep G on all the way round.

 

..

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Holbeach said:

You can't straight roll a Gazelle because it has a floppy rotor and any negative G will destroy it, unlike a B 105 which has a solid rotor and can take up to -1 G.

You can barrel roll a Gazelle, (in DCS), providing you keep G on all the way round.

 

..

Nice! 

But what I really meant was, I'd love to see real live footage of a Gazelle (or an Apache for that matter) that do overhead maneuvers. 

That you can do all kinds of stuff with DCS modules that isn't really real world applicable is out of question! (Which doesn't necessarily mean, it is unrealistic, but that the maintenance crew would kill you!) 

[Shadok]

We can see in this video the capacity of the gazelle:

 

[Hiob]

38 minutes ago, Shadok said:

We can see in this video the capacity of the gazelle:

 

Nice! 

No loops, split-s' or rolls though. No overhead maneuvers at all.

The dives and banks were a lot steeper though, then what I did when I lost control.

[jumphigh]

Already posted on this forum:

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by jumphigh

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, jumphigh said:

Already posted on this forum:

 

 

That‘s a proper looping. Crazy! Thanks for the sharing.

[flyingscotsman]

Regarding S342 FM, I changed my binding in the Options, Controls Icon on the home screen of DCS. That sorted out a lot of my problems, so I thought, what about the other helicopters? I've always changed controls in the game, ESC, adjust Controls..... Mistake really, I then when through all my Helo's and re-bound the controls. They ALL gave me better control after that. Proves we are always learning and if you've never done it before, I suggest you try it.

[Marshallman]

2 hours ago, flyingscotsman said:

Regarding S342 FM, I changed my binding in the Options, Controls Icon on the home screen of DCS. That sorted out a lot of my problems, so I thought, what about the other helicopters? I've always changed controls in the game, ESC, adjust Controls..... Mistake really, I then when through all my Helo's and re-bound the controls. They ALL gave me better control after that. Proves we are always learning and if you've never done it before, I suggest you try it.

I also save a backup of all my aircraft controls, needed them  afew times

[Kazputin]

On 8/6/2023 at 4:17 PM, Marshallman said:

I also save a backup of all my aircraft controls, needed them  afew times

Yeah, same - just copy the 'Inputs' folder from your saved game directory and store it somewhere safe, any time you get something set up just right