Feedback Thread F-14 Tomcat, Update 8th June 2023

[Spurts]

how about lateral stability above 20 units?  when I am goofing off at 25+ units I need to hold full rudder and some cross control lateral just to maintain a turn, otherwise I will still go towards wings level and climb.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Spurts

[Hummingbird]

On 6/21/2023 at 7:47 PM, fat creason said:

Guys, there is no bug here, there's nothing "look at". The aircraft is perfectly controllable above 25 units and behaves exactly as described in the manual AND our pilot SME agrees with the current behavior. See the attached video and the controls overly for proof. I guess it bears repeating: the Yaw SAS change has nothing to do with rudder authority or high AOA controllability. Perhaps you're getting so slow that none of the surfaces work effectively? You can't expect to maintain controllability down to zero airspeed, that's not how aircraft work. I recommend you practice high AOA flight if you're struggling, it's not a flight model issue, it's a PEBKAC error. 

 

 

 

 

It's during high AoA in hard turns, not level flight, that I noticed a lot of wing rock when attempting to apply small corrections in roll / bank angle using rudder only (didn't apply any lateral stick). That's what I don't recall  being the case last I flew a little over a year ago. 

[fat creason]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:52 PM, fat creason said:

Like I said above, the recent changes were purely performance updates other than tweaking the yaw SAS that was incorrectly suppressing wing rock. I've mentioned on the forums before that wing rock was always present in the model since the beginning. If you had ever turned off the Yaw SAS in any version before the FM update, you would see it immediately if excited above roughly 20 units.

Just going to quote myself here since I already addressed this topic.

[Spurts]

In other words, Current behaviour is correct and as intended.  Masked previously due to incorrect Yaw SAS implementation.  Question @fat creason, What impact does Roll SAS have during maneuvers?  I often hear people say to disable it but I don't see a "why".

[Redliner7]

I've never tested the plane a lot until recently to try to get a handle on it but after this discussion. i went out to play with the rudders to see its behavior at various speed, altitude and AOA and i could not for the life of me figure out repeatable tests.

Specifically this one test...

Level flight, no AOA, full rudder and it would side slip a tad before drawing a lazy roll with the nose tracing a circle. That's expected behavior, correct? This is what i remember in past FMs

But every once in awhile, doing the same thing but maybe at a different altitude and speed, i got into a flat spin. This isn't possible, is it with just rudder input?

Again, no AOA on the jet, just level flight. I wish i was a better "test" pilot, i didn't take very good notes on what altitude and speed i was at :/

Maybe my rudder pedals are broken??

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[draconus]

5 hours ago, Spurts said:

I often hear people say to disable it but I don't see a "why".

Once Victory205 wrote: "leaving it engaged exacerbated departure inputs from AFCS horizontal stabilator movement" and (wrt extreme high alpha) "That's where Roll SAS exacerbates departure tendencies, and why it was deactivated before maneuvering flight."

45 minutes ago, Redliner7 said:

Maybe my rudder pedals are broken?

This is easy to test with Rctrl+Enter. When your physical inputs match the game controls it's fine.

What do you mean no AoA? There's always some value and the lift generated depends also on air speed. There's no level flight without keeping some AoA.

If you're near stall speed then yes, the rudder alone can help you go into the spin but rather unlikely.

[Redliner7]

This is easy to test with Rctrl+Enter. When your physical inputs match the game controls it's fine.
What do you mean no AoA? There's always some value and the lift generated depends also on air speed. There's no level flight without keeping some AoA.
If you're near stall speed then yes, the rudder alone can help you go into the spin but rather unlikely.

when i mean no AOA, nothing more than just keeping level flight at around 300kts.

I'd test more but my headset is blacking out now :(

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Temetre]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Redliner7:

when i mean no AOA, nothing more than just keeping level flight at around 300kts.

I'd test more but my headset is blacking out now

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
 

Have you checked your USB ports/hubs? Especially if your headset is connected via USB, then it might be an issue with the USB ports or connected devices. 

Do you use a Logitech X52/56 per chance? Those are pretty troublesome for a lot of people.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Temetre

[Redliner7]

Have you checked your USB ports/hubs? Especially if your headset is connected via USB, then it might be an issue with the USB ports or connected devices. 
Do you use a Logitech X52/56 per chance? Those are pretty troublesome for a lot of people.

Thrustmaster Warthog with the T1600 rudders

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Temetre]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Redliner7:

Thrustmaster Warthog with the T1600 rudders

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Yeh those shouldnt be a problem in itself. Would try different USB slots tho.

[Slant]

On 6/21/2023 at 9:05 PM, Victory205 said:

We’re constantly evaluating and looking for areas to improve. I checked the high alpha handling again last night and it’s correct. The rudders do blank and reduce roll rate at the extreme alpha values that sim pilots use, far beyond what was typical in real life. For example, the only time I ever accepted a flat scissors was when on cruise with tanks and ordnance, restricted to a short mil power 1v1 due to fuel considerations. Pegged AOA below 100 knots is a great way to die.

I have papers in work for a host of subjects, including wing rock and realistic buffet cues and employment; trim, inflight refueling, general handling, spin entry and recovery, vertical recovery, CASE I landings, etc. It’s going to be awhile before they are added to Fat Creason’s performance page, where they will be easy to find, because the gang is thrashing like mad men on the F4, and I am somewhat wounded at the moment.

Until then, read, and reread the FM performance paper that has already been posted. The F14B is already complete, but for the reasons above, hasn’t been added.

If you think that the F14 is a handful due to wing rock and rudder inputs and handling at high alpha, wait ‘till you see the F4…

Good luck, Fly pretty.

Just using the opportunity to thank you for all the time and effort you put into your posts. It's interesting to see your perspective and putting yourself out there is not something many SMEs like to do. I greatly appreciate the simultaneously entertaining nature and the inside scoop of your posts. People like me are always hunting for those nuggets of wisdom gold that people like you tend to (acceidentally) hide in half-sentences and as afterthoughts, because it's all obvious to you.

This post confirmed my suspicion that when a fellow simmer took me to a flat scissors at 80-100 knots, it felt unnatural. Sure I was excited that the plane was still controllable (what with zero risk to my life as well), but the bastard in the back of my head went "We shouldn't be doing this, this feels all kinds of wrong and not the most efficient way to handle this situation" all the while he kept telling me how fun it is to scare Hornet drivers by being even slower than they dare!

Luckily, I don't PvP a lot, so it's inconsequential to me and at the same time an interesting experience. But as you pointed out, it's a bit too bold for the real world. And thus my interest in that particular flight regime dropped below "Well, I guess technically you can do it... and now I know what to avoid doing."

Edited July 16, 2023 by Slant

[Mikkall]

Jester is still a Moron.

Just sayin

[Rikus]

I have a suggestion for the knob ILS Channel.

When you put the cursor there, the knob tell what channel you have selected.

It´s very important specially in night operations, because many times you don´t know in what channel you are.

Also the knob don´t have end, you can move move and move, theres no end.

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Rikus said:

When you put the cursor there, the knob tell what channel you have selected.

This would be unrealistic.

7 hours ago, Rikus said:

Also the knob don´t have end, you can move move and move, theres no end.

This is correct afaik.

[Rikus]

Ok to the non end knob.

But for the first one, in real world you could see the channel, here in the simulation you can´t see, specially in night... so that little concession won't kill the simulation...

[draconus]

1 minute ago, Rikus said:

But for the first one, in real world you could see the channel, here in the simulation you can´t see, specially in night...

But you can't see it at all (you have cockpit lights) or you mean that sometimes it's hard to tell if it's 10 or 11, like the pointer is inbetween?

[JupiterJoe]

3 hours ago, Rikus said:

Ok to the non end knob.

But for the first one, in real world you could see the channel, here in the simulation you can´t see, specially in night... so that little concession won't kill the simulation...

Are you using VR goggles, with low resolution?

[Rikus]

2 hours ago, JupiterJoe said:

Are you using VR goggles, with low resolution?

Pico Neo Link 3 with DisplayPort.

[Lionheartwolf]

On 7/19/2023 at 7:26 AM, draconus said:

This would be unrealistic.

At what point did you think placing a cursor over a knob in an F-14 screamed realism for you? Personally, I think the word "cursor" was the first red flag that we stepped outside the boundaries of realism.

I am all for more visibility options especially for VR users. What harm could it possibly be? We have an entire F-menu for communications, a Jester menu, and you can literally hover over any switch, knob, or button and the game will tell you what they are. None of that is realistic, and exist purely to help the user. Why would hovering over something with a mouse pointer but now tell you what channel you are in finally break the immersive world we have? I think some rules for realism can be bent for a better user end experience. No need to shoot every idea down. You have nothing to gain.

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Lionheartwolf

[draconus]

5 hours ago, Lionheartwolf said:

I think some rules for realism can be bent for a better user end experience.

No reason to blow up the "issue". You are the pilot in cockpit, you look at the knob and select the channel. @Rikus wasn't even kind enough to share what's the reason he can't see it.

[SparrowLT]

On 7/19/2023 at 12:57 AM, Rikus said:

I have a suggestion for the knob ILS Channel.

When you put the cursor there, the knob tell what channel you have selected.

It´s very important specially in night operations, because many times you don´t know in what channel you are.

Also the knob don´t have end, you can move move and move, theres no end.

 

I just count the clicks.. it starts by default in ch1 so if i want to go to ch10 i use 9 clicks.. after a while you allready get the positions (at night you can use a flashlight iirc)