From VR back to Head Tracking - my thoughts (Poll)

[Swiss-Sim]

Hello Friends,

i just wanted to share with you my thoughts about the main topic about VR and Head Tracking and wanted to see, what do you think about this topic too. I brought the fastest PC you can get, like RTX 4090, i9-13900K, DDR5-6000 MHz, M.2 7000 GB/S etc... But still VR seems not satisfied with it. I use the Quest 2 with LINK and just the optimization stuff took me more than 3–4 months and that was painful enough. Anyway, still after i got the best settings to run DCS very good, i noticed that the game looks very poor, the whole immersion was destroyed. 

My brother don't have VR, so i was looking for him for some tutorials how he could use Head Tracking in DCS. I found Opentrack and i just started my 30 FPS cheap webcam and tried it. I started DCS and i was like "whaaaat" "serious"... Then i turned all Settings in DCS to max/ultra and started the game again. Then i saw how incredible DCS graphics is and i felt in love with it. The Head Tracking feels 90% like VR and works perfectly and smooth. I just ordered a wide curved monitor 34" and i said to my Quest 2 "... bye bye, Mark Zucki..."

My experience last 10 years:

• For some years i was using TrackIR, and i hated it and i hate it still today. I just hate the clip you have to wear, and i was not satisfied at all. These constantly interruptions drove me crazy. I just can't recommend TrackIR!
• Then i switched to Tobii 5 and this was good, you don't have to wear any clip or what ever. But in DCS it was going somehow "heavy" for what reason ever. I also noticed, there was a delay like 1 sec. when looking left/right. I played Star Citizen with it, DCS etc...
• Then i got my Meta Quest 2 and the first time i was like "i am in, i am sitting in a F-18..." then after 10 minutes i got motion sickness LOL... Then i realized, that even the fastest PC on the Market you can get, is not enough. I spend 3-4 months looking tutorials on YT, trying everything possible, and at least i was able to play but of the cost of the beautiful DCS graphics. This was not a good choice at all.
• Finally, i installed Opentrack with AITrack and a webcam. DCS Settings are maxed out, and the graphics is simply brilliant. Thank you, ED, for this. With my wide curved 34" screen it's hundred times better than VR.

I will come back to VR, when i will be able to play DCS the same way and settings as in 2D. For now, VR seems not being made for "heavy" graphics games. 

TrackIR/Tobii 5 VS Free Head Tracking Software

Because i used both, i am able to compare them. I was very surprised how good the free Head Tracking software works. You have not to believe me, but i can say this: TrackIR is the worst product i ever had, the tracking works not very well, and it was painful to look down or left/right because sometimes the clip was out of range. 

Tobii 5 was much better than TrackIR, but there was somehow a 1ms delay. The other thing, you have to stick the camera with adhesive strips and when you use the tobii 5 for some hours, it will go hot and the tobii just fall down. In DCS i was not satisfied. Imagine that, 250 bucks for such product.

Opentrack + AITrack in comparison with TrackIR and Tobii 5 is way better and its free. You just use your webcam or even your smartphone. That's it! It does not matter how i look left/right and up/down, the software works perfect, no issues at all. And i don't have to fix something on my head, or monitor with tape. Just start the Head Tracking and play... Who ever buy TrackIR or Tobii 5 without trying the free webcam software, he is just fooling himself.

If you may ask, how TrackIR and Tobii 5 feels, i can tell you this: The Opentrack + AITrack feels exactly the same like TrackIR and Tobii 5, but the free one works way more stable, and it cost you nothing. If you don't believe me, try it. there is no point to buy those expensive craps. By the way, I don't advertise here for Opentrack, i just want to help you save your money and have a better experience in DCS (Star Citizen, MFS 2020...).

Conclusion:

For those, who repeat the same phrase again and again "i can't play without VR any more..." i was saying the same phrase everywhere, but i was wrong. If you are mad about VR, just dust off your old webcam, install Opentrack and AITrack, set your DCS graphics to max and just enjoy the Game, you will never regret. DCS World has incredible graphics! And please don't buy those expensive TrackIR or Tobii 5 before you try the free Head Tracking software.

I came back to 2D through coincidence, and i am just happy about this step "backward". 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Swiss-Sim

[diego999]

Getting comfortable playing in VR takes some time and brain training. First time I almost fell off my chair when I tried some maneuvers, and for some days after I would get dizzy after playing. After a month I got over that barrier and the discomfort was gone for good, but it ever goes away for some people.

I think you had a severe mismatch between your VR gear and your PC. The Quest 2 is an entry level headset with modest capabilities (I have the same one). No matter how high you crank all the settings, it will never look amazing just because the Quest 2 doesn't have the resolution to achieve that. Your hardware is totally able to drive a much better headset like the Varjo Aero or the Pimax Crystal.

You raise some valid points about VR, specially having to waste time trying all the setting combinations to achieve reasonable results. I spent a month doing that. It wasn't fun.

In the end, it's your game and you play it however you prefer. You tried VR, didn't like it and went back to 2D. That's totally fine.

Quote

just dust off your old webcam, install Opentrack and AITrack, set your DCS graphics to max and just enjoy the Game

Will try your suggestion.

 

[Swiss-Sim]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb diego999:

Getting comfortable playing in VR takes some time and brain training. First time I almost fell off my chair when I tried some maneuvers, and for some days after I would get dizzy after playing. After a month I got over that barrier and the discomfort was gone for good, but it ever goes away for some people.

I think you had a severe mismatch between your VR gear and your PC. The Quest 2 is an entry level headset with modest capabilities (I have the same one). No matter how high you crank all the settings, it will never look amazing just because the Quest 2 doesn't have the resolution to achieve that. Your hardware is totally able to drive a much better headset like the Varjo Aero or the Pimax Crystal.

You raise some valid points about VR, specially having to waste time trying all the setting combinations to achieve reasonable results. I spent a month doing that. It wasn't fun.

In the end, it's your game and you play it however you prefer. You tried VR, didn't like it and went back to 2D. That's totally fine.

Will try your suggestion.

 

Well, i started with Quest 2, and i don't even think to buy other VR Headset. Maybe one day, when VR works very well. I was able to get 70 FPS on all maps (MT Version with VR) but then i was not able to enjoy the maps, because they were empty (Visib Range > Low), so there was no point buying new maps.

And the other issue was, like i did optimize the settings for the Caucasus map. When i wanted to use as example the Syria Map, i had to change the settings again, you got my point. Its not like you do it one time, it depends on the map or mission.

I am excited about the Quest 3 to look on benchmarks, but i am not hoping too much. It is like the new smartphones today, they just add 3,4 or 5 cameras and that's it in general.

[Swiss-Sim]

This is the first time without VR... I just started the Head Tracking Software and performed air refuelling. It looks horrible and there is no sound, i dont know why... But just for demonstrating purpose, you can look my video which starts by minute 3 https://youtu.be/Sw8B9AytUwA?t=211 now you may see, how well the webcam tracking works, even when its dark (playing at night)...

PS: these disturbances are not because of the head tracker, but my son came to look what i am doing, and the webcam caught his head too, this was the issue. Else there are no issues...

Edited June 12, 2023 by Swiss-Sim

[pete_auau]

using  vr  no way going  back to 2d version at all

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Your experience is really surprising. I can get the relative frustration about graphics quality since they have to be lowered down so much in order to get decent FPS in game, but on the other hand I've being using TrackIR 4pro since 2006-7 and not long ago 5 from a friend who was quitting sim gaming, and it's flawless. In my experience the kind of stutter you refer to in TrackIR usually comes from bad setting, bad placing of the device (lighting, shines, whatever) and usually poor profiles. You cannot have a window in your back, or any light source for the matter, but neither in your front if you wear glasses or anything else in your head, whatever it is you get reflections and light spots in your camera. But it's as easy as looking at the camera IR view to identify those spots and squash them. Track Clip with it's own IR light source also helps, back in 2009 I was at a lan party and while I had no problems with my track clip friends of mine had all the troubles with the really big ceiling lights at the place we were, so even in bad lighting conditions that can be setup to be usable. Wouldn't know why your experience with a specifically made high quality tracking device was that bad, and yeah, I've tried also some freetrack and all, those didn't cut it at least back then, talking about stuttering and low camera frames.

So, if you finally got it sorted out however it was good for you, but trackIR is not just perfectly fine but the better suited device I've tried. I believe nowadays anyway similar tracking devices can be bought quite cheaper, but still those are just trackIR copies. And of course free tracking software has evolved a lot, but since my trackIR keeps working flawlessly as always I've no reason to complain or change it until I can get decent graphics in VR as you say, though to be honest that setting up process for weeks or months is what takes me back more to even try going into VR. I'm a bit tired of configuring everything on PC for such long times whenever I want it a certain way, be it DCS or any other game. I'm more expecting a plug and play thing these days instead of having a Ph.D. on VR settings.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[diego999]

12 hours ago, Swiss-Sim said:

I am excited about the Quest 3 to look on benchmarks, but i am not hoping too much. It is like the new smartphones today, they just add 3,4 or 5 cameras and that's it in general.

 

It looks like it's going to be better than the Quest 2 but no omg this is amazing better. Increased resolution, nice, getting rid of the fresnel lenses would be a great step in the right direction, $100 more than the Quest 2, ok I can live with that.

Please add a better battery and fix the headstrap, feels like it's going to fall off your head constantly.

We'll find out soon enough.

[Marshallman]

I have a Quest 2 and just uodated the Graphics from a 2060 super to a RTX 4090. The quest 2 seems the limiting factor to me, got a reasonably steady 45 fps.

What I find is the cockpit is sharp but outside and into the distance is not, and Ive tried everything I think?

Im currently just running the Oculus App and Open XR toolkit.  And the Force VR add to the exe file.

I was hoping for more with the new card

[diego999]

Can you share your settings? I play with 45/90 fps with a 3060ti. Your 4090 should be capable of much more than that.

[Marshallman]

41 minutes ago, diego999 said:

Can you share your settings? I play with 45/90 fps with a 3060ti. Your 4090 should be capable of much more than that.

I can! Specs are as below except for the card which is now MSI RTX 4090.

I will snap shot the other settings and post...give me five

 

[Marshallman]

OK Settings  attached, Interestingly the OPEN GL rendering keeps reverting to Auto select?

Regards

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Marshallman

[diego999]

I can't spot anything wrong in those pictures. Strange.

Can you post your DCS graphic settings? Are you using Oculus Tray Tool or Debug Tool?

 

[Marshallman]

Not using Oculous tray tool..... I have an update

I followed Afty86 on Youtube video and  setup my VR the same as his recommendations...except the steam.

Now I am getting 72 FPS!!!!!!!...the RTX is running quite warm maxing at 71 Degrees....thats online with the Apache.....THanks for your prompt to look into it!

[timjulius1122]

1 hour ago, Marshallman said:

Not using Oculous tray tool..... I have an update

I followed Afty86 on Youtube video and  setup my VR the same as his recommendations...except the steam.

Now I am getting 72 FPS!!!!!!!...the RTX is running quite warm maxing at 71 Degrees....thats online with the Apache.....THanks for your prompt to look into it!

That's fantastic news! Following Afty86's recommendations, you're now enjoying a smooth 72 FPS in VR. Just monitor your RTX temperature to ensure it stays safe. Enjoy your immersive experience with the Apache!

[Marshallman]

Thanks Tim....still a change in goggles required I think...long term!
Tired eyes after a couple of hours, long distance strain I think.

Regards

[diego999]

Good to hear. 

That 4090 definitely deserves a better headset. Quest 3 is coming out in September.

And don't worry about the temp. 71° is totally fine for that card. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by diego999

[SharpeXB]

@Swiss-Sim The poll responses need adjusting. If you answer “no” to the first question, the others aren’t relevant but the poll is requiring them. 
It’s strange to hear about a bad experience with TrackIR because it’s the gold standard of head tracking. You may have left it on the 1:1 profile it starts with when it’s first installed. Set this profile to “smooth” and it works perfectly without any adjustments. Wearing a visor cap with it is just unnoticeable especially if you also have headphones. 
After reading all the accounts of people spending months to set up their VR headsets, I’m pretty much scared away from it forever. It requires an advanced degree in computer tweaking science and more patience than I will ever have. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

On 6/12/2023 at 2:09 AM, Swiss-Sim said:

The Head Tracking feels 90% like VR

´That was painful to read out loud.

[Grodin]

I could never get trackir to track anywhere near as well as VR headsets do. Playing on 2d screen lacks all the immersion, it's not fun after getting used to VR where it actually feels like being inside a plane, or atleast it looks like it. Nothing can prepare you for what VR feels like until you try it.

 

On the other hand i can run the game maxed out on 4k at like 150fps on a monitor but in VR my 3090 struggles to keep even 60fps and i'd really like it to stay locked at 90 for smooth experience without ghosting, but 3090 can't handle it with 2x MSAA which imo is a must to help with the shimmering and cockpit clarity. And can't use reprojection either, it looks and feels horrible.

 

So yeah i'm just kinda waiting for DLSS to enjoy the game in VR, now i mostly just build and test my missions in 2d.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Grodin

[Swiss-Sim]

On 7/20/2023 at 10:46 PM, Grodin said:

I could never get trackir to track anywhere near as well as VR headsets do. Playing on 2d screen lacks all the immersion, it's not fun after getting used to VR where it actually feels like being inside a plane, or atleast it looks like it. Nothing can prepare you for what VR feels like until you try it.

 

On the other hand i can run the game maxed out on 4k at like 150fps on a monitor but in VR my 3090 struggles to keep even 60fps and i'd really like it to stay locked at 90 for smooth experience without ghosting, but 3090 can't handle it with 2x MSAA which imo is a must to help with the shimmering and cockpit clarity. And can't use reprojection either, it looks and feels horrible.

 

So yeah i'm just kinda waiting for DLSS to enjoy the game in VR, now i mostly just build and test my missions in 2d.

 

I have RTX 4090, and it can't handle VR well! I was able to play with 70 FPS stable but i had to reduce VISIB RANGE to low, then i was able to fly even on mariana map. I personally take Graphics over VR, there is no joy when you just have an empty map without those nice effects. With wide 4K monitor, no issues at all. As i know DLSS wont work with VR. Even MFS20 in VR DLSS was not working at all and was way worst then DCS. And as you said, MSAA is FPS killer, i was only able to use MSAA 2X.

I hope in 5 or 10 years VR will be optimized well. They should somehow render only one eye and the other eye like a projection from the other rendered eye! This is the issue right now because the GPU have to render double. If you want higher resolution like 4K, your GPU have to render 8K and the GPU just die literally xD.

[Swiss-Sim]

On 7/14/2023 at 1:51 AM, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

´That was painful to read out loud.

xD When you play 2D with head tracker, you only miss 10% or i am "calculating" wrong?

With my big curved screen, i have the same cockpit size like when i was in VR. So - 10% sounds fair.

But i understand your point and i would say the same when i was flying with VR.

[Eugel]

40 minutes ago, Swiss-Sim said:

With my big curved screen, i have the same cockpit size like when i was in VR.

That must be some screen ...

I was in an IMAX theatre a couple of weeks ago, and that was still smaller than what I perceive in VR.

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

40 minutes ago, Swiss-Sim said:

xD When you play 2D with head tracker, you only miss 10% or i am "calculating" wrong?

With my big curved screen, i have the same cockpit size like when i was in VR. So - 10% sounds fair.

But i understand your point and i would say the same when i was flying with VR.

for me it´s much more. It´s not about size but the 1:1 headtracking.
even with the biggest monitor or projectors, that´s lacking. Reaching a runway thresshold and checking for traffic, 90º each side. Checking my six during maneuvers or just for looking at my pilot/copilot.
Moving my head a lot during Case 1 landings. Formation flights. Refueling.
It´s not a budget thing either, like I mentioned before, I think my domestic VR for DCS or FS2020 is better than things like these

https://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/rsi-visual-systems-inc/product-183945-33170.html

[LucShep]

This is a tough one.
Anyone running DCS in VR with a well tuned system for it can testify, there's nothing more immersive.
The problem is getting it to run right, and unfortunately that's too common in DCS.

I had a 4K 55'' curved screen (Samsung NU8500) with head-tracking, and that's the most immersive DCS experience I had.... with a 2D screen. It's no VR, not even close.
2D screen lacks (stereoscopic) depth and, no matter how good or big the screen is, it makes one feel detached in comparison (to VR).
Yes, it provides a bigger level of detail, clarity and precision on things like textures, or objects at far distance, and the performance impact (being less) makes it easier to push higher quality graphics settings. It's simpler to tune, and a lot more practical to handle, even to start the game (+headtracking).
But then it lacks all the amazing things that make VR so good.

VR is one of those "it just makes sense" things and unbeatable for immersion, if all stars align for it.
You're there. In the cockpit. 
Things like VFR, formation flying, landing, air refueling, even BFM, are easier and far more pleasurable in VR - it has to be experienced to understand how good it is.
Size and distances, all the proportions are right, the perception and depth of everything, it just clicks naturally. Nothing comes close. I suspect not even those big "pro" domes. 
But sometimes the stars don't align - performance issues (much more demanding on harware), endless fidling with settings (for the right performance/quality balance), and it does require adaptation (motion sickness, eye straining, impression of looking through a scuba diving mask, etc)... So it isn't 100% right for everyone.

One solution lacks what the other one has, and none is perfect. 

If you feel happier with DCS on your 2D monitor (or TV) with head-tracking, than with VR, that's fine (I fly both too). For some VR doesn't "click", or maybe it wasn't setup right.
What I'd say to anyone who never tried it is, be happy with what you have, don't try DCS in VR with a well tuned system, because if you do.... you may go down a rabbit hole, like the old adage: "Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.”  

Edited August 14, 2023 by LucShep

[TomcatBall]

Sorry @Swiss-Sim but everything what you wrote about the TrackIR is bull<profanity>. I know VR is not the best when it comes to performance. Did you really ever own TrackIR5? I don't believe you!

Before i got my TrackIR last week, i tested FacetracknoIR and it was horrible, the delay was like 3 seconds, i trashed it after 30 minutes. Then i installed the OpenTRack and AITrack and yes it was way better. I tested my 30 FPS webcam, it was nice, but it felt like DCS runs on 30 FPS. Then i purchased a 60 FPS webcam for 50 bucks and yes it was much better than the 30 FPS, make sense right? I actually was looking for 120 FPS webcam, but those are more expensive than TrackIR5, no point to get such one. I used the 60 FPS webcam with Opentrack + AITrack and every time i was playing, after 30 min. my eyes were hurting and had bad headache. Then i realized it is because of the head tracking, it didn't run smoothly enough for my eyes. Then i played with several settings and spend some hours, but i was not able to resolve this issue.

Then i finally got my TrackIR5 Gaming Set for 260 bucks. I would even pay 300 or 350 bucks. This is the best investment ever made and every penny is worth it. Its just smooth, easy to set up, very good software, it runs almost like VR 1:1, no headache any more, eyes are not hurting and i can set up my profile as i wish within seconds. This product may be old, but it simply works, absolutely not issues and DCS make so much fun now, as never before. 

For sure, for those who cant effort TrackIR5, OpenTrack + AITrack + 5,- Bucks 30 FPS webcam will do the job, but if you can afford, for the sake of your eyes get the TrackIR5, you wont ever regret. I have no idea, why it works such good, but i dont want to play DCS never again without TrackIR5. There is nothing comparable or alternative to TrackIR5, prove me wrong!

Thank you