correct as is GUN PAC switch status when starting in air

[Topper81]

Thiy is maybe not a bug, but when a mission starts in the air, the GUN PAC switch should not be in ARM position, because if so the plane aerodynamic behaviour is not optimal for flying arround and the planse works unnecessarily against aerodynamic forces and maybe some people don't notice that.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Topper81

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

Air starts are setup as combat ready, so not a bug. 

thank you

[Topper81]

Then the switch should be set to down position (GUNARM), because PAC should only be active if you defenetly plan to fly a pinpoint attack with the gun. (My point of view).

Edited June 28, 2023 by Topper81

[BIGNEWY]

I will consider for the wish list, thank you for your feedback. 

 

[Yurgon]

7 hours ago, Topper81 said:

because if so the plane aerodynamic behaviour is not optimal for flying arround and the planse works unnecessarily against aerodynamic forces

It does?

My understanding is that arming PAC will adjust the trim to allow SAS more elevator pitch authority, but we can trim that away while maintaining all PAC advantages.

3 hours ago, Topper81 said:

Then the switch should be set to down position (GUNARM), because PAC should only be active if you defenetly plan to fly a pinpoint attack with the gun.

Personally, I tend to use the gun more for individual targets and welcome the benefit of PAC. I would also argue that those players who aren't aware of PAC would consider the gun to be much less accurate than advertised when they don't use it unwittingly. Finally, I'd like to make the point that airstarts have had this default switch position since the release of the DCS A-10C, and changing it now would break the habit patterns of a lot of people.

Ultimately, though, my personal preference would be for airstarts to start with all switches safe, or to allow mission builders more fine grained control over armed/safe states. Even then, in the "armed" state I think PAC should be on by default. But that's just my opinion.

[jaylw314]

AFAIK PAC is only engaged when the first- or second-stage trigger is held down.  It should not affect flight controls otherwise (or if the other criteria are not met, like having the EAC on).

That being said, I have noticed that when you flip the arming switch on the AHCP to GUNPAC, the aircraft attitude does transiently change, and I'm not sure if this is just a DCS thing or happens IRL. 

[Yurgon]

10 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

That being said, I have noticed that when you flip the arming switch on the AHCP to GUNPAC, the aircraft attitude does transiently change, and I'm not sure if this is just a DCS thing or happens IRL. 

I'm also not certain that the aircraft does this IRL, but it has definitely been doing it in DCS forever. Scattered across the forum will be mentions of this behavior, for instance here:

On 6/10/2011 at 10:52 PM, BlueRidgeDx said:

The only thing PAC does (when not shooting the gun) is provide a 2 degree change in pitch trim. And it only does that in order to provide the appropriate amount of SAS actuator authority in anticipation of firing the gun.

There are also cases of players complaining that the aircraft experiences a notable pitch change when opening the refueling receptacle, which in all known cases was caused by players approaching the tanker with the gun and PAC both armed, which IRL could get people in pretty serious trouble.

Best I can tell this is a correct representation of real life behavior.

Just for the fun of it, in active pause and with the external camera looking at the tail, we can see that extending the speed brakes will also change the elevator pitch to compensate for the pitch change induced by opening the brakes (unless pitch SAS is off, in which case we would instead notice the aircraft actually pitching up as the speed brakes are opening).

It would surprise me if ED invented the elevator trim change when activating GUN PAC, while getting all the rest right.

[jaylw314]

36 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

There are also cases of players complaining that the aircraft experiences a notable pitch change when opening the refueling receptacle, which in all known cases was caused by players approaching the tanker with the gun and PAC both armed, which IRL could get people in pretty serious trouble.

LMAO  

I think the 2 deg thing is when PAC is being engaged by the trigger.  The only reference to the 2 deg bias is if the EAC disarms while firing with PAC, then a 2 deg nose up trim change occurs. At least, that's only based on what I could find out there

Edited June 28, 2023 by jaylw314

[ASAP]

4 hours ago, Topper81 said:

Then the switch should be set to down position (GUNARM), because PAC should only be active if you defenetly plan to fly a pinpoint attack with the gun. (My point of view).

 

None of that is accurate to real life. Real world pilots fence in with master arm and gun/pac arm. There is no aerodynamic penalty to the PAC like you say. A-10 pilots use the gun as a point weapon, sparying bullets over a large area is viewed by their community as a waist of precious ammo, bullet density on targets is what matters. PAC off strafe is a rare exception to the rule.

 

1 hour ago, Yurgon said:

I'm also not certain that the aircraft does this IRL, but it has definitely been doing it in DCS forever.

From what I've heard the pitch change is not accurate to real life. The pilots I've talked to said they never noticed a pitch change there and there is no reason for the elevator trim to automatically move when you arm the gun, since it doesn't actually effect any control surfaces until you engage PAC-1.

From reading through a copy of a dash-1 I found, there is no mention of any pitch trim compensation for the Arming of the GUN/PAC. Not sure what DCS based it off of, but its been a part of the game for ever.

[jaylw314]

54 minutes ago, ASAP said:

None of that is accurate to real life. Real world pilots fence in with master arm and gun/pac arm. There is no aerodynamic penalty to the PAC like you say. A-10 pilots use the gun as a point weapon, sparying bullets over a large area is viewed by their community as a waist of precious ammo, bullet density on targets is what matters. PAC off strafe is a rare exception to the rule.

 

From what I've heard the pitch change is not accurate to real life. The pilots I've talked to said they never noticed a pitch change there and there is no reason for the elevator trim to automatically move when you arm the gun, since it doesn't actually effect any control surfaces until you engage PAC-1.

From reading through a copy of a dash-1 I found, there is no mention of any pitch trim compensation for the Arming of the GUN/PAC. Not sure what DCS based it off of, but its been a part of the game for ever.

There's an A-10A dash-34 out there that describes some more detail about the PAC in LASTE 6.0, but I'm not sure how much that applies to our A-10C

[ASAP]

2 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

There's an A-10A dash-34 out there that describes some more detail about the PAC in LASTE 6.0, but I'm not sure how much that applies to our A-10C

Yeah, I saw that too... the PAC is using all the LASTE inputs to null line of sight rates with the target through the SAS. But there isn't anything that would cause a pitch change when setting the switch in the ARM position (at least that I can find). setting the switch to GUN/ARM doesn't engage PAC, or cause anything on the aircraft to actually move, so there's no reason why the elevator trim moves.

The first and only time the PAC system sends any output to the flight control surfaces (through the SAS) is when PAC-1 or PAC-2 are engaged with the trigger.