This Aircraft is Unforgiving on Landing!

[Iron Sights]

8 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

As far as I can tell, landing at 80,000 lbs with immediate braking results in 'wheel damage and brake fires possible,' so it's not an automatic explosion.  I'm guessing that does not encapsulate the clenching that would be involved, though 

If you aerobrake down to 110 knots or so before braking, you're supposed to be in the clear, which is pretty mind-boggling to me.

You have the fuel dumps too

 

Yep, you are right. You can dump fuel if it’s a quick turn around. I ran a mission today and found that if you stay fast on most short missions and end up where you want to be on landing. While not the easiest to master I would have to think anyone who has flown the MiG-21 or the F1 would not be intimidated.

[Brainfreeze]

On 6/30/2023 at 2:29 PM, Phantom_Mark said:

Please don't change the brakes, nice to have an aircraft which finally feels like it has some  !!

You should try the mirage 2k.  That is what brakes should be like

[Phantom_Mark]

1 hour ago, Brainfreeze said:

You should try the mirage 2k.  That is what brakes should be like

I will have a quick refresher later, not flown it for a while, too many awesome planes to fly to keep on top of them all

[Ignition]

On 7/6/2023 at 5:56 AM, Tenkom said:

The ground effect is very strong compared to other jets so I often flare too much and end up landing much later than I intended. Never had a problem with stopping however. Good brakes. Except maybe the last 10-20 knots before stopping takes longer than I expect. Almost rear ended some guy during taxiing because it took longer to come to a stop than I thought.

The ground effect is strong, I don't know if its like that in the real aircraft but considering the big wings it's really likely the case. I have the habit in the F-16C to do micro acceleration just before I enter the runway on final for a nicer ground effect. In the F-15E if you do that you will have problems.
In the F-15E I idle the engines almost at the same time I do the micro acceleration in the F-16C, just before the ground effect I put the airbrake and on ground effect I counter with stick fwd and keep the fpm on the horizon, while the airspeed bleeds I'm releasing the pressure keeping the fpm on horizon until the stick is neutral (thats 21 AoA) then flare a little bit and let it touch down the runway. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Ignition

[fullcoupe]

My take:

It lands pretty much like a 172, minus the high flare and speed brake after touchdown. 

Aim for the touchdown point, power down over the numbers (or before the numbers if I get fancy), speed brake out just after touchdown and hold the flare until at a reasonable speed. Simple as that for me. If I'm fast the jet bounces and settles appropriately. If I get slow it stalls out quick but I suppose that is expected for something that heavy. 

The brakes feel right to me. In short bursts they do a reasonable job at getting the AC back to taxi speed, as long as I bleed enough speed initially after touchdown. I also like that the jet tracks nice and straight when I apply both brakes - very predictable and solid feel. 

My only challenge has been the engine bottom-end spool up time feels extremely slow...much slower than I'm used to with the Hornet or Viper. There's no quick "bumping" the throttle a bit on final if the engines are already back at idle. It may be characteristic of the F100s but it is an adjustment for sure. 

[claysanger]

I definitely think people are going to have to play some otherwise procedural / by the numbers aspects of the jet by feel as it goes through its EA growing pains. Performance characteristics are apt to fluctuate from patch to patch. 
 

But it's hard to go wrong with a little old fashioned landing as light and slow as conditions will permit, gentle-on-everything, speed brakes through the fluffy ground effect, aerobraking until aerodynamics insists you just have to set your nose gear down, and don’t be afraid once that nose settled down to pull aft stick back to your belt buckle and use those huge horizontal stabs as extra braking power. At that point I can stomp on the brakes if I want to and come to a stop like a Viggen with the reverse lever thrown  

She is a big, heavy girl but I’ve had pretty good luck by just treating her like the big girl she is on landing. She DOES have very beefy brakes at the moment and if you bleed her speed off every other way first those brakes will bring you from 100 knots to gently exiting the active mighty fast. 
 

I’m loving it. She feels like a big jet. 

[Phantom_Mark]

14 hours ago, Brainfreeze said:

You should try the mirage 2k.  That is what brakes should be like

Dang, that thing hauls up     To be fair was landing completely clean, but still......

[Nealius]

On 7/6/2023 at 5:12 PM, Avio said:

Also, in the overhead break landing, the manual says on downwind (at 1600 AGL) keep the runway sight picture between the wing tip and outer rack. Isn't that too close?

In my DCS experience that would indeed be too close. I do a lazy 3G pull down to 2.5~2.0G once below 300kts and have a fairly wide gap between the runway and wing tip, yet I need 45+ degrees of bank throughout the entire base turn to avoid an overshoot. Typically in the Viper my overhead patterns start with 45 degrees of bank then I only need 25-30 during the last half of the turn.

[Ignition]

Its always better to turn more on the initial part of the base and then relax for final.

[Nealius]

Yeah, but 60AoB for the initial part of base feels a bit excessive. Is it within acceptable limits in real life?

[jaylw314]

FWIW, this is a screengrab from BD's YouTube video running the tutorial mission.  It looks like he uses about 45 deg bank on the downwind to final turn:

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by jaylw314

[Nealius]

ADI shows up to 50deg initially in the turn and about 40-45 until lined up (still overshooting slightly).

EDIT: Tried the 300kts/2.5G pattern and it came out pretty nice. 45 during the first half of the base turn, 30 or less in the last half, greased the landing. Ironically after shutting down my starboard engine by mistake while I was faffing around for gear/flaps keybinds on the downwind lol

Edited July 9, 2023 by Nealius

[Orne]

On 7/6/2023 at 5:12 PM, Avio said:

I noticed coming in on short final at 22 AOA or so, the flight path marker gets very likely to disappear below the HUD (flashing) during the flare. Is this normal and correct in the real jet?

Also, in the overhead break landing, the manual says on downwind (at 1600 AGL) keep the runway sight picture between the wing tip and outer rack. Isn't that too close? Wouldn't keeping a small gap between wing tip and runway allow for a less stall-prone break turn through base to final? (I mostly keep to 1500 AGL).

Found that the jet needs quite a bit of increased power and tight turn on base turn just to keep it a safe margin from stall.

 

Raising your seat after lowering your gear should allow you to see the FPM with no problems. I believe this is why the speed and altitude indicators shift to a lower position in the HUD after lowering the gear

Edited July 11, 2023 by Orne

[av8orDave]

My opinion: 

This is by far the easiest of the DCS jets to land. It is stable, responds in a reasonable time to power changes, is easy to trim to the desired AoA, has predictable handling on the ground, and has pretty good braking (both aero and mechanical).

I will add that it also has the most realistic "feel" to landing a real aircraft.

Edited July 11, 2023 by davidrbarnette

[mazex]

Mmm, finally got the hang of it by making sure to get it trimmed at the right AOA (~22), speed around 170-180 when heavy and the velocity vector at the touch down point (just at the edge of blinking), controlling the glide path with the throttle... And then cut all power, flare rather boldly and full air brake while keeping the nose wheel in the air as long as possible. And then full wheel brakes...

But having grown up in Sweden where I have seen many Viggen and Gripen aircraft stop after 400-500 meters on small highways it feels a bit silly  The Viggen is fun to land in DCS, but the easiest in my opinion is the F/A-18 on a regular airfield... No problem jerking around with high alpha in some steep turn to bleed off speed, and just slam it down in the end

Edited February 12, 2024 by mazex

[GGTharos]

3 hours ago, mazex said:

Mmm, finally got the hang of it by making sure to get it trimmed at the right AOA (~22), speed around 170-180 when heavy and the velocity vector at the touch down point (just at the edge of blinking), controlling the glide path with the throttle... And then cut all power, flare rather boldly and full air brake while keeping the nose wheel in the air as long as possible. And then full wheel brakes...

But having grown up in Sweden where I have seen many Viggen and Gripen aircraft stop after 400-500 meters on small highways it feels a bit silly  The Viggen is fun to land in DCS, but the easiest in my opinion is the F/A-18 on a regular airfield... No problem jerking around with high alpha in some steep turn to bleed off speed, and just slam it down in the end

 

~21, as in 20 to 22 ...this is important because above 22 you get into heavy AoA-induced drag used for aerobraking (And this is a type of approach you can use for minimum ground run but there is more to it than just AoA).    Throttle probably shouldn't be cut because you're made of inertia and makes a touch-and-go harder in case you need it.  Reduce yes, but cut only when you touch down.  

If you have to apply full brakes before 60kts, ideally 40-50 if heavy, the runway you have chosen is too short and you'll have a hot brakes problem (N/A DCS).

[jaylw314]

10 hours ago, GGTharos said:

~21, as in 20 to 22 ...this is important because above 22 you get into heavy AoA-induced drag used for aerobraking (And this is a type of approach you can use for minimum ground run but there is more to it than just AoA).    Throttle probably shouldn't be cut because you're made of inertia and makes a touch-and-go harder in case you need it.  Reduce yes, but cut only when you touch down.  

If you have to apply full brakes before 60kts, ideally 40-50 if heavy, the runway you have chosen is too short and you'll have a hot brakes problem (N/A DCS).

FWIW, the brakes can bring the mudhen to a stop from 115 knots in 90F weather from 85,000 lbs weight without risk of damage, although if you have any mechanical empathy, you will be hurting inside

 

[Phantom_Mark]

Anyone else find the aerobraking a little under stated?

I have been flying in and out of Incirlik lately, a lovely runway, Landing on the numbers, at around 165/170kn I did an extended aero brake there and quickly started to run out of runway, still 110knots approaching the second taxiway junction, only just managed to get the nose down and brake in time to get off the end......just feels like the speed scrubs a little quicker with the F16 and Hornet ?  far from an expert in the F15E, still less than 100hrs

Edited February 13, 2024 by Phantom_Mark

[jaylw314]

58 minutes ago, Phantom_Mark said:

Anyone else find the aerobraking a little under stated?

I have been flying in and out of Incirlik lately, a lovely runway, Landing on the numbers, at around 165/170kn I did an extended aero brake there and quickly started to run out of runway, still 110knots approaching the second taxiway junction, only just managed to get the nose down and brake in time to get off the end......just feels like the speed scrubs a little quicker with the F16 and Hornet ?  far from an expert in the F15E, still less than 100hrs

 

Are you getting the nose up above 12 deg?  The waterline "W" should flash at 13 deg, and less than 13 deg will be less effective.  I can't remember the pitch where the tail hits the ground, IIRC it's at 17 deg.

Flaps should be down.  I open the speedbrake during the flare, but it doesn't really slow you down at that AOA.   

Aerobraking makes your landing roll longer, not shorter AFAIK.  If you want short, get the nose down as soon as you can and stand on the brakes.

Edited February 13, 2024 by jaylw314

[Ignition]

1 hour ago, Phantom_Mark said:

Anyone else find the aerobraking a little under stated?

I have been flying in and out of Incirlik lately, a lovely runway, Landing on the numbers, at around 165/170kn I did an extended aero brake there and quickly started to run out of runway, still 110knots approaching the second taxiway junction, only just managed to get the nose down and brake in time to get off the end......just feels like the speed scrubs a little quicker with the F16 and Hornet ?  far from an expert in the F15E, still less than 100hrs

 

You're very fast or you're very heavy. You can do 145kn at 22AoA.

https://youtu.be/Kq5m6SyF8eI?t=346

[Phantom_Mark]

I can't say with certainty what my AoA was, I would however expect it was at least 15/20, during the roll I felt like I had it up as high as I could get it without tail striking - I will do some more practice however, it took a short while to even land it nicely at all compared to other types - spoilt by too many hours of slamming the deck with the Hornet no doubt

[Swift.]

2 hours ago, Phantom_Mark said:

I can't say with certainty what my AoA was, I would however expect it was at least 15/20, during the roll I felt like I had it up as high as I could get it without tail striking - I will do some more practice however, it took a short while to even land it nicely at all compared to other types - spoilt by too many hours of slamming the deck with the Hornet no doubt

15/20 AOA would probably be a nose attitude of 5-10 degrees on the ground. Definitely push that nose up, get the waterline comfortably above the 10 degree mark.

[KlarSnow]

Pull the nose up till the waterline in the hud starts blinking, that is your cue that you are at the limit and if you raise the nose any more you will be in danger of scraping your tail. 
should start blinking at 12 degrees nose high. 
 

if you don’t pull the nose up relatively quickly after touch down, you won’t be able to get the nose high enough as the speed bleeds off.

you can stop inside 5000 feet of runway distance if you fly an onspeed approach at a relatively light weight (4-5000 lbs of fuel plus ordnance) and immediately get on the aerobrake and then hit the wheel brakes at 120-100 knots.

biggest thing is landing weight, since that translates to landing speed and then the amount of braking energy required to stop the jet. It’s one of those exponential equations where everything compounds quickly as you add weight, since it increases landing speed, which increases rollout distance and the force required to stop the jet. So if you are having trouble getting the jet stopped on the ground, first recommendation is always, land at an appropriate weight. Normal overhead recovery fuel is 2500 lbs. so you are in the break at that fuel point. A “comfortable” landing weight is 5000 lbs or so. 9-10000 starts to be the upper limit.

also remember ordnance is included in that weight, so if you are bringing back a full load of bombs you have to incorporate that in your weight calculation as well.

 

as to fuel dumping, you should be figuring that out on your RTB, IE as you point back at your intended landing base (100 miles away) you should immediately be looking at your fuel gauge and remaining ordnance, and doing a quick “do I need to adjust weight” check, if so you start immediately dumping fuel to get down to an acceptable weight. That way you are good by the time you get to the base, not figuring it out as you are in the break.

Ill reiterate the rough rule of thumb here again, you conservatively get 50 miles for every thousand pounds of fuel on board, so if I’m 100 miles away from my intended landing base and I want to land with 2500 pounds of gas, I’ll need 4500 lbs of fuel to be comfortable.

 

if I have 9000 lbs I’ll set the bingo bug to 4500 and dump till it gets there and I’m assured landing on that airfield, as I get closer continue to reassess and reduce weight if desired.

Edited February 14, 2024 by KlarSnow

[draconus]

16 hours ago, KlarSnow said:

s to fuel dumping, you should be figuring that out on your RTB, IE as you point back at your intended landing base (100 miles away) you should immediately be looking at your fuel gauge and remaining ordnance, and doing a quick “do I need to adjust weight” check, if so you start immediately dumping fuel to get down to an acceptable weight. That way you are good by the time you get to the base, not figuring it out as you are in the break.

Isn't it more safe to wait until the descent with the dumping, when you're like 30nm to air base? You don't know what happens on your RTB - can be anything: new orders, airfield divert, enemy attack, emergency/malfunction - you'll regret every pound dumped earlier.

[KlarSnow]

No, if your base is under that kind of threat then you probly shouldn’t be landing at it anyways. If you want to wait that late in the game to check your weight then just keep in mind that the fuel dump is at 900-1000 lbs per minute, so rough math you are only gonna be able to dump 2-3000 lbs of gas by the time you are 30 miles out. If that’s not enough to make you comfortable then you will be landing.

basic aviation guidelines for your descent checks, or preparing to enter the landing environment start 10-15 minutes before you land, which is usually 100-150 miles out. Checking your gas and adjusting for these purposes is second nature and just part of learning how to fly this stuff IRL. 
also what do you think is safer, getting on the ground safely without risking damaging your aircraft in a single approach, or holding 10,000 extra pounds of gas for a “just in case” air engagement that you then have to spend 10-15 minutes orbiting to get rid of.

that just in case fuel should have been part of your bingo calculation and assumption before you started the RTB, not after you have fenced out and are heading back.

If this is something you are super concerned about then just plan your flight to include holding for 10 minutes over the airfield with your extra gas, perform a CAP in case anything shows up until you hit your landing fuel and then land. If you aren’t planning on doing that, then just get configured so you can land ASAP and out of the way of whatever is going on.