Laser bombing moving targets - how?

[felixx75]

10 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

The original designation is not "close enough" because the target is moving away from it. How do I designate a moving target and keep the designation on it?

I've tried with CDES boxed and unboxed. 

 

It IS close enough (if the target is not a race car @topspeed and you are not flying with 100kts )... I was bombing moving targets today many, many times without any problems (using the method, I described above).

Edited July 9, 2023 by felixx75

[dporter22]

It's just a tank. Could you please see the track I posted and tell me what I'm doing wrong?  

Edited July 9, 2023 by dporter22

[felixx75]

16 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

It's just a tank. Could you please see the track I posted and tell me what I'm doing wrong?  

 

I would say that in your case the following case has actually occurred. Because you are moving head-on towards the target and the target is moving head-on towards you, the distance is too short and the target is already almost under your aircraft, so that the bomb can no longer "catch" the laser. I would choose the approach differently. Either approach from further away, but I think you should approach from behind (or diagonally behind).
(by the way, you forgot which fuze you want to use, but that has nothing to do with the actual topic).

[dporter22]

Thanks, but I've tried various different angles, and that angle shouldn't matter anyway. 

The question is how to designate a moving target and no one seems to be able to answer that question. As you can see in the track, pressing designate either before or after acquiring a point track simply designates a spot on the ground. In the meantime, the target has moved away from that spot, but the ASL is relevant to the designated spot, so the bomb doesn't guide.

If you're saying that you are supposed to fly the ASL and release the bomb in relation to the designated spot, and the bomb is supposed to track the laser which is following the target which has by now moved well away from the designated spot, that doesn't make sense at all.  There are lots of times when the aircraft might take a long time to get to the release point, by which time the target is very far away.

As you know, in the A-10, F-18, and F-16, the designation/SPI/TPOD/Laser all stay on the moving target once you've long pressed with a point track. I don't see why it doesn't work the same in the F-15.

[Poptart]

CDES only works once the slewing has stopped. So it will never update the designation from a point track (since the target is moving). Not sure if that's a bug or the way the system works. The best way to accomplish what you are after is to put the target designation point ahead of the convoy then get a point track on the vehicle you want to lase after the drop. 

[felixx75]

Again, you designate a moving target the same way, you would designate a non moving target. The designation has NOTHING to do with the guidance. The designation only tells you, when and where to drop the bomb. In you specific example (.trk file) the relativ speed of your target is simply too high (because of a head-on approach), and the bomb can't catch the laser. The seeker has only a limited gimbal, and if the laser is too far behind, it won't find and track it. That would be the same in other modules.

[Poptart]

11 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

Again, you designate a moving target the same way, you would designate a non moving target.

Not right. Target designation points do not move. Period. If you target designate after achieving a point track the pod will stop tracking the target. 

If he wants to attack with that profile, he needs to move the target designation point closer so he can drop earlier. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Poptart

[Panny]

Can someone who is regularly successful at this upload a video?

I have mixed success with it personally. However I have found times where I've designated, then got into point track(which by the way really struggles to latch on), but the bomb has still guided to the originally designated point in spite of CDES being set.

One thing to rule out gimbal limits that I have found help is to go into a shallow dive with release

[felixx75]

1 hour ago, Poptart said:

Not right. Target designation points do not move. Period. If you target designate after achieving a point track the pod will stop tracking the target. 

If he wants to attack with that profile, he needs to move the target designation point closer so he can drop earlier. 

 

I never said, that a designated point is moving. But you can designate a moving target like every other target, if you are not aproaching this target head-on or from very high altitude. You don't have to aim ahead.

In his specific case (head on), he should aim ahead, but I would try to avoid such a approach.

 

[QuiGon]

14 hours ago, dporter22 said:

As you know, in the A-10, F-18, and F-16, the designation/SPI/TPOD/Laser all stay on the moving target once you've long pressed with a point track. I don't see why it doesn't work the same in the F-15.

This is not true for the F/A-18C. While the A-10C and F-16C have the ability to continiously and automatically update their designation, the F/A-18C does not. WIth the F/A-18C you have to manually press TDC depress to designate a position and do the same again to update it. It's the same with the F-15E as long as CDES is not boxed. If CDES is boxed it will update the designation automatically as well (but apparently only if the cursor isn't moving*).

(*According to @Poptart. I wasn't aware of this specific restriction and haven't tested it myself yet.)

Edited July 10, 2023 by QuiGon

[dporter22]

I'm even more confused then because the F-18 I fly definitely does continuously track and designate the target.  See attached.

If the DCS F-15E does not it has to be incorrect because no real-world aircraft would be able to operate effectively and safely if it had to designate a random point on the ground, then obtain a point track of the actual target without the target being designated, then fly the ASL to the previously designated point which is now nowhere near the actual target that is moving away, and hope that the weapon picks up the laser that is tracking the target by the time the airplane gets to the release point.

In the attached track you can see that obtaining a point track automatically tracks and designates the target, the target designation diamond stays on and moves with the target, and the ASL remains attached to the diamond giving correct guidance to the moving target the entire time, even after weapon release and impact.  It's the same in the A-10 and F-16 and should be the same in the F-15E.

(Don't know why the bomb didn't hit the target, but that's another discussion.)

F18 LGB.trk

[QuiGon]

24 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

I'm even more confused then because the F-18 I fly definitely does continuously track and designate the target.  See attached.

Thank you for the track. I stand corrected on the Hornet. It does actually seem to update the target designation automatically and continiously. At least if a point track is achieved. Without the point track it seems to update it automatically only periodically. I never tried it that way tbh and always manually designated the target with the Hornet. I'm actually a bit bewildered that it even seems to designate targets just by ataining a target track (either area track or point track), without ever pressing TDC depress

  

24 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

If the DCS F-15E does not it has to be incorrect because no real-world aircraft would be able to operate effectively and safely if it had to designate a random point on the ground, then obtain a point track of the actual target without the target being designated, then fly the ASL to the previously designated point which is now nowhere near the actual target that is moving away, and hope that the weapon picks up the laser that is tracking the target by the time the airplane gets to the release point.

[...]

It's the same in the A-10 and F-16 and should be the same in the F-15E.

Just because it works one way in some aircraft doesn't mean it works the same way in all aircraft. That's not a valid deduction.
In fact it is very much a feature of the F-15E, that you can enable or disable continious designation (box/unbox CDES on the TPOD page).

Edit: And no one ever said you need to designate a random point on the ground. No idea what makes you think that? I just explained that this is recommend for fast moving targets to increase hit chance, but that applies to all aircraft, not just the F-15E.

Edited July 10, 2023 by QuiGon

[dporter22]

23 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Just because it works one way in some aircraft doesn't mean it works the same way in all aircraft. That's not a valid deduction.
In fact it is very much a feature of the F-15E, that you can enable or disable continious designation (box/unbox CDES on the TPOD page).

Edit: And no one ever said you need to designate a random point on the ground. No idea what makes you think that? I just explained that this is recommend for fast moving targets to increase hit chance, but that applies to all aircraft, not just the F-15E.

 

That's what I'm saying, it shouldn't work like that. You do have to designate a point on the ground because you have to have a target diamond and ASL in order to release the weapon in auto mode.

Currently in the DCS F-15E if you designate a moving target the designation point does not stay on the target, it stays right where you designated it. Then you have acquire a point track which tracks the target, but the target is not designated even when CDES is boxed. The target diamond remains back where you designated it while the target moves away. Then you fly the ASL to the previously designated point on the ground, because it is not moving with the target, and hope that by the time you get to the weapon release point that the seeker can pick up the laser on the target.

This is not correct. It's not how it works in other DCS aircraft and it's not how it works IRL.

Could you please post a track of the F-15E tracking a moving target with a continuous designation that remains on the target and an explanation of how you did it?

Edited July 10, 2023 by dporter22

[QuiGon]

34 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

Could you please post a track of the F-15E tracking a moving target with a continuous designation that remains on the target and an explanation of how you did it?

As mentioned by @Poptart, the continious designation of the Strike Eagle only works when the cursor is resting and not moving. If that is realistic/intended or not I do not know, but I will try to clarify.

[dorianR666]

7 hours ago, QuiGon said:

This is not true for the F/A-18C.

real hornet's atflir page in point track has an option to generate designation with target movement prediction (that moves with the target obviously) so even an unguided bomb should land roughly on the moving target if it has constant speed and direction. this is not implemented in dcs though.

 

id like to know if its correct that CDES only designates after the pod stops slewing.

Edited July 10, 2023 by dorianR666

[Mistermann]

By dumb luck, I engaged a moving target the other day and then stumbled on this thread.  I usually record all my DCS sessions so I can go back and see where things went wrong so I can learn from those mistakes.  Linked is a short (<2min) video of that moving target engagement.   I pretty much followed the process @felixx75 mentioned last week.

On 7/9/2023 at 4:40 PM, felixx75 said:

You don't have to designate ahead of your target. I never do that and always hit the target. I find my moving target, establish a point track, designate (CDES boxed) and that's it.

Hope this helps in the conversation.

 

[dporter22]

Thanks. If you have one showing the target diamond remaining on the moving target please post.

[Ceid]

The manual states that showing the box over the tracked target via PTRK is not included yet (Chapter 12.7.2.3, Page 426, marked yellow). Maybe that's why?

Working procedure for me: CDES boxed, ALAS and PTRK selected, then put the crosshairs of the Pod over the moving target and if the contrast is high enough they will snap onto the target and start following it. 100% hit rate as long as I dont wiggle around to much so the Pod looses track. 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Ceid

[Poptart]

1 hour ago, Ceid said:

Working procedure for me: CDES boxed, ALAS and PTRK selected, then put the crosshairs of the Pod over the moving target and if the contrast is high enough they will snap onto the target and start following it. 100% hit rate as long as I dont wiggle around to much so the Pod looses track. 

 

 

CDES is irrelevant in this situation. CDES and an active point track are incompatible options. If you designate too early, your ASL will be off by the time you arrive at the bomb drop point. If you're high enough, the bomb will track. If not the bomb will miss. Currently there is no way to adjust the bomb drop point for movement.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 7/10/2023 at 7:18 PM, dporter22 said:

it shouldn't work like that.

Apparently it does, or at least did. If you listen to Starbaby’s interviews on the 10 Percent True podcast, he did mention that “when CDES was implemented it made his life a lot easier”. He also alluded to CDES being classified so he didn’t want to go into details on how it works.

I bet tracking moving targets will get easier when we get the newer pods (Litening and Sniper).

Edited July 12, 2023 by Raven (Elysian Angel)

[AvroLanc]

1 hour ago, Poptart said:

CDES is irrelevant in this situation. CDES and an active point track are incompatible options. If you designate too early, your ASL will be off by the time you arrive at the bomb drop point. If you're high enough, the bomb will track. If not the bomb will miss. Currently there is no way to adjust the bomb drop point for movement.

This is not true. CDES and a track (point or area) are REQUIRED together for CDES to work. You also need active laser ranging (or HRM or PASS ranging methods (Not implemented)).

When CDES and a Track mode are selected, and you're laser ranging and you have made previous TPOD designation, the designation point SHOULD follow the TPOD line of sight (i.e track LOS). Any TDC input will stop CDES.

If this isn't how it works at the moment then it's bugged/WIP. 

[dporter22]

So from the additional posts we can confirm that designating moving targets is currently not functioning correctly. You can sometimes get the weapon to track the laser if you're close enough, but the designation/target diamond/ASL do not remain on the target as they should.

[IanC58]

3 hours ago, dporter22 said:

So from the additional posts we can confirm that designating moving targets is currently not functioning correctly. You can sometimes get the weapon to track the laser if you're close enough, but the designation/target diamond/ASL do not remain on the target as they should.

Works perfectly for me

[Sarge55]

Sounds like we need Notso to do a step by step video of bombing a moving target with an LGB.

Caveat - If he's already done one could someone post a link?

[Poptart]

7 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

This is not true. CDES and a track (point or area) are REQUIRED together for CDES to work. You also need active laser ranging (or HRM or PASS ranging methods (Not implemented)).

When CDES and a Track mode are selected, and you're laser ranging and you have made previous TPOD designation, the designation point SHOULD follow the TPOD line of sight (i.e track LOS). Any TDC input will stop CDES.

If this isn't how it works at the moment then it's bugged/WIP. 

You're welcome to post a track. That's not how it works in DCS. That's also not what it says in the docs.