Spirale Posted September 13, 2023 Posted September 13, 2023 HI, What are the A2G capabalities and how? Does the F4 have different aiming assistance for each sort of ground weapons? Thx
Northstar98 Posted September 13, 2023 Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) Dumb bombs (Mk 8x series, M117 and numerous cluster bombs), guided bombs (Paveway I and II with self-designation capability, GBU-15 on the later DMAS Phantom), AGM-65A/B/D Maverick, AGM-45A/B Shrike. There are numerous delivery modes, (dive-toss, dive-laydown and laydown, probably others I'm missing), the later DMAS Phantom will have CCIP capability. These methods will be more involved that what we're probably used to in the 4th generation modules. For that self-designation capability, the DSCG Phantom will have AN/AVQ-23 Pave Spike (TV (day only), direction-stabilised (no point or area track), no derotation device EDIT: this is actually mistaken - it does feature point stabilisation with help from the aircraft, but tracking targets is still something you'll have to do manually, it does have a derotation device, but it only compensates for pod roll (so when looking behind, images will appear upside down), with a 12k ft rated LTD/R. The DMAS Phantom should have AN/AVQ-26 Pave Tack (first gen. FLIR, similar limitations to Pave Spike (though does have "computer rate aiding", though AFAIK it's still direction stabilised) Pave Tack doesn't appear to have a derotation device at all looking at footage online, there is computer-rate aided point-stabilisation by the looks of it and like Pave Spike moving targets have to be tracked manually. Unlike Pave Spike though it does have additional pointing modes). Edited November 1, 2023 by Northstar98 corrected: Pave Spike does feature a limited derotation device and has point stabilisation. Pave Tack though doesn't have a derotation device at least when looking at available footage. 4 1 Modules I own: F-14A/B, F-4E, Mi-24P, AJS 37, AV-8B N/A, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk. Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas. System: GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070S FE, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV. Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
Spirale Posted September 13, 2023 Author Posted September 13, 2023 THX North Do we know which version of the F4 will be delivery?
Northstar98 Posted September 13, 2023 Posted September 13, 2023 22 minutes ago, Spirale said: THX North Do we know which version of the F4 will be delivery? As I understand it, the first up will be the DSCG Phantom, followed by the DMAS Phantom 1 1 Modules I own: F-14A/B, F-4E, Mi-24P, AJS 37, AV-8B N/A, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk. Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas. System: GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070S FE, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV. Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
Harlikwin Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 On 9/13/2023 at 2:51 PM, Northstar98 said: As I understand it, the first up will be the DSCG Phantom, followed by the DMAS Phantom That would make the most sense at least. 1 New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).
Northstar98 Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 6 hours ago, Harlikwin said: That would make the most sense at least. Yeah, probably makes more sense to go older to newer than the other way around. All the screenshots so far are of the DSCG version (Pave Spike, no TISEO, no AN/ARN-101 displays/indicators). 1 Modules I own: F-14A/B, F-4E, Mi-24P, AJS 37, AV-8B N/A, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk. Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas. System: GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070S FE, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV. Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
Stackup Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 DSCG coming first confirmed on the HB Discord. Modules: F-14A/B, F/A-18C, F-16C, F-4E, F-5E, FC3, AV-8B, Mirage 2000C, L-39, Huey, F-86, P-51, P-47, Spitfire, Mosquito, Supercarrier Maps: Persian Gulf, Syria, NTTR, Marianas, Normandy 2, Channel, Kola Upcoming Modules Wishlist: A-1H, A-7E, A-6E, Naval F-4, F-8J, F-100D, MiG-17F
Harlikwin Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 Good. It's the more common of the two. And can approximate IRAF birds better. Be neat if we get the IRAF F14-95 at the same time. Even neater would be if ED did a IRAF F5E. 1 New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).
Omega417 Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Stackup said: DSCG coming first confirmed on the HB Discord. Info is 3 days old, stale info, things could have changed by now. For all we know the F-4S could be coming first. 1 1
Stackup Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 27 minutes ago, Omega417 said: Info is 3 days old, stale info, things could have changed by now. For all we know the F-4S could be coming first. Nah it'll be an XF4H-1 1 Modules: F-14A/B, F/A-18C, F-16C, F-4E, F-5E, FC3, AV-8B, Mirage 2000C, L-39, Huey, F-86, P-51, P-47, Spitfire, Mosquito, Supercarrier Maps: Persian Gulf, Syria, NTTR, Marianas, Normandy 2, Channel, Kola Upcoming Modules Wishlist: A-1H, A-7E, A-6E, Naval F-4, F-8J, F-100D, MiG-17F
Gunfreak Posted October 11, 2023 Posted October 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Omega417 said: Info is 3 days old, stale info, things could have changed by now. For all we know the F-4S could be coming first. Nah they changed it to the F4F Wildcat. 1 i7 13700k @5.2ghz, GTX 3090, 64Gig ram 4800mhz DDR5, M2 drive.
Zad Fnark Posted October 30, 2023 Posted October 30, 2023 I'm happy Bullpups are on the way... Questions are a burdon, and answers a prison for one's self.
bfr Posted October 30, 2023 Posted October 30, 2023 6 minutes ago, Zad Fnark said: I'm happy Bullpups are on the way... That's going to test one's coordination I bet if you're flying alone, having to maintain line of sight to the missile and target, feed in corrections and also maybe dodge ground fire. 1
Zad Fnark Posted October 30, 2023 Posted October 30, 2023 4 minutes ago, bfr said: That's going to test one's coordination I bet if you're flying alone, having to maintain line of sight to the missile and target, feed in corrections and also maybe dodge ground fire. I figure it'll be similar to the Viggen's RB 05A. Hopefully less twitchy. Yeah, I know... Tanks probably aren't the best targets for these. 1 Questions are a burdon, and answers a prison for one's self.
bfr Posted October 30, 2023 Posted October 30, 2023 11 minutes ago, Zad Fnark said: I figure it'll be similar to the Viggen's RB 05A. Hopefully less twitchy. Yeah, I know... Tanks probably aren't the best targets for these. Ah yes, forgot about those. Not a weapon I've used much.
Omega417 Posted November 6, 2023 Posted November 6, 2023 All of the Phantom Models I've made over the years have had the "Fuze Extender" on the front of the bombs as an option, I think it would be pretty cool if those were added to the sim in some way. 1
Nealius Posted November 10, 2023 Posted November 10, 2023 Does the DSCG variant have a simple computed bombing mode similar to that in the A-4E, or is it 100% manual?
Smyth Posted November 10, 2023 Posted November 10, 2023 2 hours ago, Nealius said: Does the DSCG variant have a simple computed bombing mode similar to that in the A-4E, or is it 100% manual? Yes, the original F-4 'WRCS' (one of the main upgrades of the F-4D over F-4C, then inherited by F-4E) is closely related to the one in the A-4. Main difference is that WSO needs to lock the ground manually (probably something they decided humans could do more reliably than computers in the 60s). For single player flight, I'm sure Jester AI will take care of this. 3 More or less equal than others
Northstar98 Posted November 10, 2023 Posted November 10, 2023 (edited) On 11/10/2023 at 1:20 AM, Nealius said: Does the DSCG variant have a simple computed bombing mode similar to that in the A-4E, or is it 100% manual? Yes, there are several automatic bomb delivery modes, the 3 main ones are Dive Toss, Dive Laydown and Laydown. The modes are more involved than what we’re used to in 4th generation aircraft - as Smyth said the WSO needs to designate a point on the ground using the radar EDIT: actually this is mistaken (toilet2000 is correct) - the radar is used to compute slant range, but in the -34 for the F-4E, the radar is aimed with the optical sight (and all diagrams state that the target is momentarily tracked visually, the bomb button is then pressed and held and the required manoeuvre performed, the bombs then release automatically as set. However the WSO also needs to input the drag coefficient of the bomb into the WRCS and for releasing multiple weapons a release advance (and not just quantity and interval). The release advance can be used to begin releasing bombs before the calculated release point, allowing you to specify exactly where each bomb in a ripple lands. EDIT: In offset bombing using a radar identification point (RIP), that's when the WSO needs to lock a ground target. Edited November 13, 2023 by Northstar98 Corrected - thanks toilet2000 3 Modules I own: F-14A/B, F-4E, Mi-24P, AJS 37, AV-8B N/A, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk. Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas. System: GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070S FE, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV. Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
SickSidewinder9 Posted November 12, 2023 Posted November 12, 2023 On 11/10/2023 at 7:15 AM, Northstar98 said: Yes, there are several automatic bomb delivery modes, the 2 main ones are Dive Toss, Dive Laydown and Laydown. The modes are more involved than what we’re used to in 4th generation aircraft - as Smyth said the WSO needs to designate a point on the ground using the radar, but also needs to input the drag coefficient of the bomb into the WRCS and for releasing multiple weapons a release advance, which can be used to release bombs before the calculated release point, allowing you to specify exactly where each bomb in a ripple lands. interesting.
toilet2000 Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 On 11/9/2023 at 10:49 PM, Smyth said: Yes, the original F-4 'WRCS' (one of the main upgrades of the F-4D over F-4C, then inherited by F-4E) is closely related to the one in the A-4. Main difference is that WSO needs to lock the ground manually (probably something they decided humans could do more reliably than computers in the 60s). For single player flight, I'm sure Jester AI will take care of this. On 11/10/2023 at 9:15 AM, Northstar98 said: Yes, there are several automatic bomb delivery modes, the 3 main ones are Dive Toss, Dive Laydown and Laydown. The modes are more involved than what we’re used to in 4th generation aircraft - as Smyth said the WSO needs to designate a point on the ground using the radar, but also needs to input the drag coefficient of the bomb into the WRCS and for releasing multiple weapons a release advance, which can be used to release bombs before the calculated release point, allowing you to specify exactly where each bomb in a ripple lands. Dive Toss and Dive Level both don’t require the WSO to lock the ground with the radar. It works extremely similar to the computer bombing mode of the A-4E: you point the pipper at the target, pickle and then either proceed for a toss or a level bombing. Bombs are released automatically using the slant range from radar ranging at the initial pickle. 1
Smyth Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 1 hour ago, toilet2000 said: Dive Toss and Dive Level both don’t require the WSO to lock the ground with the radar. Source? Take a look at page 1-129 of the 1973 F-4C/D/E weapon delivery manual TO 1F-4C-34-1-1. Since it is pre-1980 and non-classified, here is the text: More or less equal than others
KlarSnow Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 Of note that -34 refers to the backseater as the “pilot” and the front seater as the “AC” or “Aircraft Commander”
Northstar98 Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 6 hours ago, toilet2000 said: Dive Toss and Dive Level both don’t require the WSO to lock the ground with the radar. It works extremely similar to the computer bombing mode of the A-4E: you point the pipper at the target, pickle and then either proceed for a toss or a level bombing. Bombs are released automatically using the slant range from radar ranging at the initial pickle Just had a look and yes, you're absolutely correct - corrected. 4 hours ago, Smyth said: Source? Take a look at page 1-129 of the 1973 F-4C/D/E weapon delivery manual TO 1F-4C-34-1-1. Since it is pre-1980 and non-classified, here is the text: Toilet2000 is correct, in the diagrams for Dive Toss, Dive Laydown and Laydown in 1F-4E-34-1-1 (c. 1979, r. 1986), it states that the target is momentarily tracked visually. The radar is slaved to the optical sight's LOS in order to compute slant range. A ground return only needs to be locked in radar/non-visual offset bombing (where the target is located at a known position relative to an identification point, for a radar identification point, the radar is locked onto said point, the WSO puts the radar into freeze and presses the target insert button, the aircraft then provides steering information to put it over the target). 1 Modules I own: F-14A/B, F-4E, Mi-24P, AJS 37, AV-8B N/A, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk. Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas. System: GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070S FE, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV. Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
toilet2000 Posted November 13, 2023 Posted November 13, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, Smyth said: Source? Take a look at page 1-129 of the 1973 F-4C/D/E weapon delivery manual TO 1F-4C-34-1-1. Since it is pre-1980 and non-classified, here is the text: 1F-4E-34-1-1 (April 1979 with latest change in December 1986) page 1-119 and 1-120. Not sure if I can post any images or details since the revisions are post 1980, but it should be very straightforward for you to verify. What @Northstar98 said is the gist of it and 100% accurate. You can definitely bomb à la A-4E in the DSCG F-4E that we'll get in DCS initially, without the WSO locking the ground. Edited November 13, 2023 by toilet2000 1
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