not planned late 80s/early 90s F-18A add-on

[snocc_]

a mid to late 1980s/early 90s F-18A would really help fill out those iconic scenarios and conflicts the earlier hornets took part in like desert storm/ operation el dorado canyon/operation deny flight etc that we cant quite do with our 2006 F-18C due to advanced systems we cant reliably remove or limit in the mission editor like the jhmcs or link-16 and missing equipment we've already been told wont be getting on our current hornet like the nitehawk tgp on top of other differences like the radar or engines

an F-18A from this timeframe would complement our current 18C very well by giving us a much better reach into virtually any legacy hornet operation throughout all of it's service life with the A filling in early scenarios and the C taking good care of everything after the year 2000, give us better access to simulating some more export hornet users like spain, canada and australia who all used the 18A as their main fighter aircraft for a substantial ammount of time and finish perfecting the DCS legacy hornet experience with both variants being relevant to their own thing and with little space for one to end up eclipsing the other.

If money was a concern with this idea something similar to what heatblur plans to do with their naval phantom variants or something similar to what was done with the A-10C2 or BS3 upgrades could be considered and the 18A could be added as something like a separate add-on or module rather than be fully integrated into the F-18C module, the interest for something like this seems to exist from a good part of the community given the ammount of content and discourse there is around these earlier operations and conflicts involving the earlier F-18s both in multiplayer and singleplayer environments so i think it would be liked and do well either way

[Hulkbust44]

FYI, the current implementation of our "C" model Hornet, except for the engines is a circa 02'-03' A+. The Hornet is a glass cockpit aircraft, a desert storm era Hornet with datalink, JHMCS and advanced weapons is what we have right now.

Outside of cockpit cosmetics everything, but the most advanced systems will be the same.
You still have walleye, SLAMs and slams with man in the loop datalink for example.

This is not what you think it is.

A fully simulated late 90's Hornet is way, way more than our DCS "Charlie"

It would be great to have just for the idea, but there's no practical reason.

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[snocc_]

 

hace 37 minutos, Hulkbust44 dijo:

FYI, the current implementation of our "C" model Hornet, except for the engines is a circa 02'-03' A+. The Hornet is a glass cockpit aircraft, a desert storm era Hornet with datalink, JHMCS and advanced weapons is what we have right now.

Outside of cockpit cosmetics everything, but the most advanced systems will be the same.
You still have walleye, SLAMs and slams with man in the loop datalink for example.

This is not what you think it is.

i am aware the 18A and 18C are overall pretty similar aircraft, that doesnt change what i said or think, the current DCS hornet still struggles to fit into early scenarios due to reasons i've already mentioned, i am not asking for a late 90s A either but something closer to the end of the 80s or the beginning of the 90s

hace 37 minutos, Hulkbust44 dijo:

It would be great to have just for the idea, but there's no practical reason.

the practical reason for an early hornet variant is having a hornet that fits early scenarios

Edited September 19, 2023 by snocc_

[Hulkbust44]

 
the practical reason for an early hornet variant is having a hornet that fits early scenarios

Our Hornet is only a 2005 Charlie in name.

Don't turn on datalink or CIT, do not enable JHMCS, don't turn to IFA. It's seriously not different enough. The radar, our "APG-73", is being modeled off of the APG-65 as it is. We have a -65 that's being called a -73. All of the core MC functions that were added with the C model, don't exist in DCS anyway...

Save for datalink and the modern weapons, a full F/A-18A, even a fairly early model should be much more capable than our current DCS Hornet.

If you want what we have now just stripped down, it's unrealistic.

If this existed in DCS as you want it, you would jump in and notice the engine gauges, the AMPCD/HI is flat at the top, and the DDIs lack AZ/EL, MIDS, NET, and TGT data. That's really it.

It probably doesn't apply to you, but there is a major misconception amongst the community that an early Hornet is like an early Viper, with it's radar and stores display really being the only digital elements. It's either a shrunken F-4, or overgrown F-5.

The very first delivered Hornet's in 85' had more radar features than our DCS model did as of a few months ago.

The "F-5 cockpit" version of the Hornet doesn't exist.

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[snocc_]

hace 17 horas, Hulkbust44 dijo:

It probably doesn't apply to you, but there is a major misconception amongst the community that an early Hornet is like an early Viper, with it's radar and stores display really being the only digital elements. It's either a shrunken F-4, or overgrown F-5.

for sure, some people may believe that and they'd be wrong but nothing like an "F-5 cockpit version of the hornet" was ever a point i was trying to make on the conversation, there was never any mention of it being anything like a shrunken F-4 or an overgrown F-5 or an early viper A, im not sure where you're getting this idea from on my posts, im aware the F-18A and C are similar aircraft

what im asking for is a hornet version that can more easily fit into these earlier scenarios without outclassing the actual period appropriate aircraft on either side just by virtue of having systems 10~20 years newer that they should simply not have access to on these timeframes, mainly jhmcs and link 16 and sometimes some of the tgps when they're needed to stand-in for the nitehawk, this is not necessarily a problem with our current hornet since it simply has the equipment the F-18 ED is modelling is supposed to have but more of a problem caused by the lack of an earlier hornet version that can really complement it and take good care of these earlier time periods

"just dont use link-16/jhmcs" isnt a very solid argument either since as already mentioned there's no real way to restrict the use of these systems on these scenarios, the only "later"-ish addition you can really restrict on our hornet beyond weapons and stores is the GPS but that isnt as nearly a big of a deal and afaik was already a thing on the C hornets by the time they started flying so it doesnt really matter

anyway, them being so similar just means ED will have to do less work on the 18A and we'll get it faster after our C is finished

Edited September 20, 2023 by snocc_

[gnomechild]

13 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Don't turn on datalink or CIT, do not enable JHMCS, don't turn to IFA.

How do you enforce this in a multiplayer server?

[Hulkbust44]

4 hours ago, gnomechild said:

How do you enforce this in a multiplayer server?

Why would you? The fallacy of a balanced public PvP game? There's no point. Even with the first production Hornets, they would be completely "overpowered" in their "proper" timeframe. all the cold war servers with the Hornet available are PvE, why would you care if the random guy you're not even talking to is using DL? It's his loss. 

Neither Hornet version would fit a scenario where you would need to restrict crap on public servers. If you want the proper flying experience, fly with a good group on their servers.

[gnomechild]

9 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Why would you?

So that you could have an online scenario with a Hornet without JHMCS, GPS, and advanced datalink

[snocc_]

hace 16 horas, Hulkbust44 dijo:

Why would you? The fallacy of a balanced public PvP game? There's no point. Even with the first production Hornets, they would be completely "overpowered" in their "proper" timeframe. all the cold war servers with the Hornet available are PvE, why would you care if the random guy you're not even talking to is using DL? It's his loss. 

Neither Hornet version would fit a scenario where you would need to restrict crap on public servers. If you want the proper flying experience, fly with a good group on their servers.

if we wanted to take on these earlier scenarios with the current DCS hornet we would need to restrict crap our version has because as already mentioned the F-18 in DCS has systems it didnt have access to in the 80s and 90s and while it was a very good and capable plane in it's time regardless these systems give it quite an edge that it simply should not have in these timeframes, its not even just about balanced pubbie pvp servers but also about being able to enjoy authentic scenarios with authentic aircraft in general whether it be pve, pvp or singleplayer missions without having to worry about the plane you're flying being too new

 

hace 16 horas, Hulkbust44 dijo:

all the cold war servers with the Hornet available are PvE

there's a reason for this

there's been a number of pvp cold war servers that have tried adding the hornet and other blue mid 2000s aircraft in an attempt to have them stand in as the iconic earlier cold war versions DCS lacks while keeping red to period appropriate soviet aircraft. They usually die off after a short time unless some other important changes are made to who used what aircraft at what time for public pvp server balance as otherwise red players will quickly realize they're stuck on a steep uphill battle against aircraft that are 20+ years newer than the timeframe the mission is supposed to be set in let alone the aircraft they are allowed to use on these scenarios and just leave

[Hulkbust44]

On 9/21/2023 at 4:30 PM, snocc_ said:

there's been a number of pvp cold war servers that have tried adding the hornet and other blue mid 2000s aircraft in an attempt to have them stand in as the iconic earlier cold war versions DCS lacks while keeping red to period appropriate soviet aircraft. They usually die off after a short time unless some other important changes are made to who used what aircraft at what time for public pvp server balance as otherwise red players will quickly realize they're stuck on a steep uphill battle against aircraft that are 20+ years newer than the timeframe the mission is supposed to be set in let alone the aircraft they are allowed to use on these scenarios and just leave. 

If you put the oldest operational Hornets in there, the results would still be the same. What you want never existed.

[Vampyre]

Absolutely! An early Lot 11 F/A-18C or earlier would be great for late cold war/Desert Storm/early 90's scenarios. APG-65, no GPS, -400 engines, no MIDS, no LITENING/ATFLIR, no JHMCS and limited to AIM-9L/M and AIM-7F/M's would be perfect. Not having a F/A-18 or even an F-16 available for cold war scenarios is a shame. Truthfully, I wish ED had the foresight to include something like that from the beginning. When the -18 first entered early access it was almost an A model in capability... and was still fun to employ against the Russian types as they were similar in capability, and I had a lot of good fights with and against the Hornet back then. Since the data link and JHMCS were added the capability disparity has jumped to such an extent that few pilots now want to fly red on our MP servers. Another plus for an earlier Hornet would be that it would be much easier to learn systems wise. 

[bies]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:08 PM, Hulkbust44 said:

FYI, the current implementation of our "C" model Hornet, except for the engines is a circa 02'-03' A+. The Hornet is a glass cockpit aircraft, a desert storm era Hornet with datalink, JHMCS and advanced weapons is what we have right now.

No. F/A-18C during Desert Storm 1991 didn't have Link 16, JHMCS, AMRAAMs, MIDS, modern targeting pods, GPS guided munitions and many modern weapons we have. This were coming only much later, in mid 2000s, some 10-15 years after Desert Storm.

1980s/Desert Storm era F/A-18C would be a nice addition, still relying mostly on visual range combat, maneuverability, pilot skills employing most weapons, with coherent enviroment, proper era Soviet flayable opposition etc.

And such legacy variant would be fairy easy to implement for ED - as other said differences were mostly avionics, so it would require to simply disable some systems, modes, weapons.

Edited September 23, 2023 by bies

[Hulkbust44]

No. F/A-18C during Desert Storm 1991 didn't have Link 16, JHMCS, AMRAAMs, MIDS, modern targeting pods, GPS guided munitions and many modern weapons we have. This were coming only much later, in mid 2000s, some 10-15 years after Desert Storm.
1980s/Desert Storm era F/A-18C would be a nice addition, still relying mostly on visual range combat, maneuverability, pilot skills employing most weapons, with coherent enviroment, proper era Soviet flayable opposition etc.

Of all things, weapons weren’t part of the conversation, that’s easy.
Also, everything you mentioned except JHMCS is pre 01’ for sure.

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[bies]

8 minutes ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Of all things, weapons weren’t part of the conversation, that’s easy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

So why did you use false statement?:

Quote

"a desert storm era Hornet with datalink, JHMCS and advanced weapons is what we have right now."

Such false information mislead people who read the forum and have no knowledge about the relevant versions.

Edited September 23, 2023 by bies

[Hulkbust44]

So why did you use false statement?:
"a desert storm era Hornet with datalink, JHMCS and advanced weapons is what we have right now."
Such false information mislead people who read the forum and have no knowledge about the relevant versions.

In the context of our sim, it’s true. Take the TGP, MIDS, and advanced weapons, the rest of the Hornets systems are nowhere near what you think.What people’s don’t understand is that we do *not* currently have a “2005 USN F/A-18C” except for JHMCS in 02-03’ our current model at most matches an F/A-18A+ circa 01. The radar and engines are different by name, but in DCS they have the performance of that years A+ Hornets.


There are a lot of under the hood system changes, none of which matter or would be noticeable to the DCS population. If an A was built to the standards of our current DCS Hornet model, there would really be nothing but cosmetic differences.

Who’s going to notice that flight logic changed in OFP 10.7 in the 90s? That’s not even reflected in our current model.

Our DCS Hornet with the option to remove datalink, JHMCS, and their associated formats from view would more than suffice.

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[bies]

Even easier to make a proper separate variant by just disabling post 1991 systems.

F/A-18C entered service in 1985, exactly like F-15C MSIP in USAF or Su-27S in USSR. Both Su-27S and F-15C MISP are bread and butter of 1980s DCS SP scenarions and MP servers. 1985 early F/A-18C without JHMCS, Link 16, MIDS, earlier -400 engines and few other small changes would be at home as well in such scenarios.

[Hulkbust44]

Even easier to make a proper separate variant by just disabling post 1991 systems.
F/A-18C entered service in 1985, exactly like F-15C MSIP in USAF or Su-27S in USSR. Both Su-27S and F-15C MISP are bread and butter of 1980s DCS SP scenarions and MP servers. 1985 early F/A-18C without JHMCS, Link 16, MIDS, earlier -400 engines and few other small changes would be at home as well in such scenarios.

Certainly wouldn’t “fit” but okay. Remember that our current “402s” perform as 400s so there wouldn’t be a performance difference.


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[snocc_]

hace 4 horas, bies dijo:

1980s/Desert Storm era F/A-18C would be a nice addition, still relying mostly on visual range combat, maneuverability, pilot skills employing most weapons, with coherent enviroment, proper era Soviet flayable opposition etc.

And such legacy variant would be fairy easy to implement for ED - as other said differences were mostly avionics, so it would require to simply disable some systems, modes, weapons.

hace 4 horas, Vampyre dijo:

Absolutely! An early Lot 11 F/A-18C or earlier would be great for late cold war/Desert Storm/early 90's scenarios. APG-65, no GPS, -400 engines, no MIDS, no LITENING/ATFLIR, no JHMCS and limited to AIM-9L/M and AIM-7F/M's would be perfect. Not having a F/A-18 or even an F-16 available for cold war scenarios is a shame. Truthfully, I wish ED had the foresight to include something like that from the beginning.

thank you , im a little more biased towards the early 18A than the C but i'd be more than happy with either version prior to stuff like the apg-73 being introduced

Edited September 23, 2023 by snocc_

[snocc_]

hace 10 horas, Hulkbust44 dijo:

If you put the oldest operational Hornets in there, the results would still be the same

They wouldnt be, like multiple users have already pointed out our biggest problem with fitting the DCS hornet in these early scenarios are the link-16 and the JHMCS and like vampyre already said PvP scenarios before these systems were added into the module did just fine, an option to restrict these systems would go a long way but if im to ask i'd rather get the full early hornet package with the rest of the little bits and pieces that differ from ours
 

hace 10 horas, Hulkbust44 dijo:

What you want never existed.

what i want is an F-18A from the mid/late 80s or the very early 90s as said in the title and first post

[FlankerKiller]

“Not planned” I get it but I for one would definitely pay for a Desert Storm era A model. My understanding is the engines were different, and it if corse lacked data links, HMCS, GPS capabilities, and modern weapons. One of the biggest draws for me would be the period correct targeting pods. 

 

[Hulkbust44]

what i want is an F-18A from the mid/late 80s or the very early 90s as said in the title and first post

If you do not use L16, JHMCS, ATFLIR and just use time period weapons, you get the same thing.

(Yes it still had datalink)

Take a look at this, there's much more re here than we have in our "modern" model.

The big things of the engines and radar perform the same as our DCS aircraft right now.

If you had a mission editor way to disable L16, JHMCS, and ATFLIR, what else would you want?
You can already limit weapons and GPS. There are basically no noticeable hardware changes with the exception of the IFEI (many got with the block upgrade) and the EW panel in front of the stick.


Our DCS model is a bare bones "A" with three extra toys.

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[Mr_sukebe]

It’s quite straightforward to restrict kit in the ME by simply not having it available in the warehouses at airfields and the ships.

I’ve done that myself for some “vaguely realistic” Gulf war setting, ie no JCHMS, Aim120s, Aim9x, targeting pods, GPS guided weapons and newer cluster bombs etc.  No, it’s not perfect, but it’s not difficult and it’s easy to do

 

[Phantom711]

Am 23.9.2023 um 11:38 schrieb bies:

Zitat

"a desert storm era Hornet with datalink, JHMCS and advanced weapons is what we have right now."

Such false information mislead people who read the forum and have no knowledge about the relevant versions.

I think, you simply misread, what Hulkbust said here:

what he means is probably „…a Desert Storm era Hornet +JHMCS +datalink +advances weapons is what we have right now“.

[BIGNEWY]

 An A model would require significant changes  to the external model, cockpit, engines, sensors, weapons, and various avionics systems. At this time we have no plans for the A model. 

thank you

[snocc_]

hace 4 horas, Hulkbust44 dijo:

 

 

If you had a mission editor way to disable L16, JHMCS, and ATFLIR, what else would you want?

 

If we had that + nitehawk it'd be a different story and i probably wouldnt be asking for this like i am, but since we dont and im going to ask i'd rather ask for a full product i'd like to see with all the bits and pieces over a compromise like this

 

Either way we already have an answer from ED and if its not planned its not planned, hopefully it can be considered in the future