in review Spotting dot bugs in VR

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

This is example of improved dot v2, ground target:

Honestly that still looks too large. It’s a giant square superimposed on a small vehicle you wouldn’t realistically be able to see that easily. 

[draconus]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Honestly that still looks too large. It’s a giant square superimposed on a small vehicle you wouldn’t realistically be able to see that easily. 

But it's a whole convoy.

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, draconus said:

But it's a whole convoy.

Do you see single vehicles like that? It looks like a big square. 

[draconus]

Can you guys please run the mission and check how far you can see the F-16 flying away in CAVU conditions?

On both FHD and VR it becomes 1 pixel from 1nm on, stays as black pixel for many miles, over 8nm gets faint until over 15nm to become impossible to see.

Feel free to change the F-16 for any other aircraft you want to check.

@YoYo AA: Off, DLAA/DLSS, MSAAx2 does not seem to affect the visibility range now.

vis test.miz

Edited August 1 by draconus

[YoYo]

I’ll check but tomorrow.

[KoN]

The problem is too much of a divide and different headsets equal different 3D  worlds .  One person see all and the next can't see hardly anything. Some drop their resolution down to 1080 so they can see all , some like high detail resolution but see little . 

But for me there is big difference from 2D spotting too 3D spotting in my VR . 

Anyway I've stopped playing in VR it's  too frustrating on competitive servers . It's that simple . 

You can make missions but what Yoyo sees will be different to what I see . Two different headsets. 

Edited August 2 by KoN

[draconus]

4 hours ago, KoN said:

You can make missions but what Yoyo sees will be different to what I see . Two different headsets. 

That's what I wanted to check, because I have a feeling we see the same pixels but have different expectations. So please check the mission and give us feedback - it'll also help devs I'm sure.

[YoYo]

5 hours ago, KoN said:

 

Some drop their resolution down to 1080 so they can see all , some like high detail resolution but see little

Im using resolution in my Quest about 6,3x2,8K in total so its quite high, in lower resolution could be better even. I know that lowering resolution too mutch can even cause a certain type of cheating (it happens that some people lower the resolution a lot to have better results in online dogfights). For me it's stupidity.

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, YoYo said:

I know that lowering resolution too mutch can even cause a certain type of cheating (it happens that some people lower the resolution a lot to have better results in online dogfights). For me it's stupidity.

That exploit still exists since players can still enable the old 2.8 version by turning the new spotting dots off. If anything has changed though I also see dots at similar very high ranges in 4K. It’s not as pronounced as in 1080p but still there. 

[josef]

Just updated to 2.9.7.58923
the update log say some balancing has been done, but nothing has really changed. the F-16 near 10 nautical miles has become a pixel, which equates to being unable to visualize in PVP.

On 8/2/2024 at 5:11 AM, Joe1978 said:

What does ED offer as a response to VR users? Despite well-meaning proposals, substantial actions that resonate with the virtual reality community appear to be lacking.

Apologies for venting my frustration here. 

Yes, it's disappointing.

[zerO_crash]

Who premise based on which some make argurments here, is really funny. The concept of "competitiveness" and that some request to balance out their deficits by implementing features which are unrealistic at heart, bolstering their cause by pretending imaginary army of VR-users-of-the-world-unite... Yeah!

 

I use HP G2, and am specifically using the default (non-articulated) spotting dot. Isolating the question of whether this is real or not to how this compares to IRL, it is exactly as it is supposed to be. A pilot doesn't use MKI eyeball to spot infantry out of a jet, and even finding vehicles the size of a artillery or tank, can very often pose a challenge depending on the surrounding environment and its complexity. With non-improved spotting, you don't get a magical dot, but rather a natural fade-in of a unit. The best way to test this, is by using A-A as a benchmark. I am able to spot a jet-fighter sized (F-16/MiG-29) target at some roughly 12-18 miles depending on factors like lightning/background/camouflage/aspect/etc... If I focus deeply on an area/point, I can pick out a soft shadow of a fighter at as much as 24-25 miles. Those metrics, are absolutely within what IRL numbers are! Now, attempting to find a target on the ground, becomes obviously more of a feat considering obstructions and the likes. Still, if you "articulated" spotting dot, you will see ground targets as groups of lack dots intermingling outside of the drawing distance (flying at higher altitude). This, for one, is not only ruining immersion, but also giving a negative impact to ground warfare, as it allows to see units that upon zooming or using optics, are behind obstacles. As such, regardless of your sight (use VR glass inserts), if you care about realism, then I can tell that default spotting is actually on point and realistic. (I have the same confirmed from friends running other VR headsets - Oculus, HP and Pimax).

 

With regards to what is being done online (MP), you will never be at an equal with someone using TIR5 and the ability to tilt their head 10* for a complete rear view. There are positives and negatives to each system, but attempting to customize DCS based on what you experience in MP is ridiculous. At best, it would be an idea (I have voiced it before), to have ED introduce an ability for a server host to decide whether a server should be open to all, only TIR5/non-tracking users, or only VR users. If this is doable (based on settings in DCS (VR enabled/disabled)), you could find servers where the common ground is adjusted. At the end of the day, even though someone might fly with TIR and have the ability to use a higher pixel screen or look around without straining themselves, it's actually VR that is point accurate with IRL. Take that with pride, and instead, find a better server, honestly!

[PawlaczGMD]

Not sure if spotting has changed recently, but lately I can't see anything in high-res VR...

[zerO_crash]

Which option are you using? Also, what does "anything" mean? How far out?

[PawlaczGMD]

1 hour ago, zerO_crash said:

Which option are you using? Also, what does "anything" mean? How far out?

MSAA x2, high details, Pimax Crystal 100% res (125% in the center with QuadViews). 

I practically see no spotting dots.  I missed every merge in MP today. 

It might be just me, but it feels like the spotting system got worse for my settings (very high resolution).

You are talking about spotting 20-ish miles away, but your headset has much lower resolution, which seems to be the main factor deciding how large the spotting dots are. For me they don't exist. 

Against the sky my visibility is definitely below 10 miles, unless I zoom in it's like the enemy isn't rendered. And much harder to spot anything against the ground in hot aspect.

 

Edited August 10 by PawlaczGMD

[razalom]

I am having issues running DCS with quadview on Pimax Crystal. Was fine before the update but now when I run it the sim launches but nothing goes in to the VR headset. Disable quadview in Pimax XR Runtime and it works fine. Am I missing something here?

[PawlaczGMD]

2 hours ago, razalom said:

I am having issues running DCS with quadview on Pimax Crystal. Was fine before the update but now when I run it the sim launches but nothing goes in to the VR headset. Disable quadview in Pimax XR Runtime and it works fine. Am I missing something here?

Sorry, this works fine for me with the same setup.

[PawlaczGMD]

20 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

MSAA x2, high details, Pimax Crystal 100% res (125% in the center with QuadViews). 

I practically see no spotting dots.  I missed every merge in MP today. 

It might be just me, but it feels like the spotting system got worse for my settings (very high resolution).

You are talking about spotting 20-ish miles away, but your headset has much lower resolution, which seems to be the main factor deciding how large the spotting dots are. For me they don't exist. 

Against the sky my visibility is definitely below 10 miles, unless I zoom in it's like the enemy isn't rendered. And much harder to spot anything against the ground in hot aspect.

 

 

Decreasing the res from 125% to 100% improves spotting significantly.

I would kindly ask the devs to test the spotting on these very high VR resolutions, as I think the system still needs some tuning in this regime. 

[YoYo]

16 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Sorry, this works fine for me with the same setup.

The same, no issue for me (about 6,4K in my resolution so quite very high). I think the last patch did nothing for VR, it concerns 2D:

No any info here about VR.

Quote

On 8/10/2024 at 5:54 AM, zerO_crash said:
Who premise based on which some make argurments here, is really funny. The concept of "competitiveness" and that some request to balance out their deficits by implementing features which are unrealistic at heart, bolstering their cause by pretending imaginary army of VR-users-of-the-world-unite... Yeah!

I use HP G2, and am specifically using the default (non-articulated) spotting dot. Isolating the question of whether this is real or not to how this compares to IRL, it is exactly as it is supposed to be. A pilot doesn't use MKI eyeball to spot infantry out of a jet, and even finding vehicles the size of a artillery or tank, can very often pose a challenge depending on the surrounding environment and its complexity. With non-improved spotting, you don't get a magical dot, but rather a natural fade-in of a unit. The best way to test this, is by using A-A as a benchmark. I am able to spot a jet-fighter sized (F-16/MiG-29) target at some roughly 12-18 miles depending on factors like lightning/background/camouflage/aspect/etc... If I focus deeply on an area/point, I can pick out a soft shadow of a fighter at as much as 24-25 miles. Those metrics, are absolutely within what IRL numbers are! Now, attempting to find a target on the ground, becomes obviously more of a feat considering obstructions and the likes. Still, if you "articulated" spotting dot, you will see ground targets as groups of lack dots intermingling outside of the drawing distance (flying at higher altitude). This, for one, is not only ruining immersion, but also giving a negative impact to ground warfare, as it allows to see units that upon zooming or using optics, are behind obstacles. As such, regardless of your sight (use VR glass inserts), if you care about realism, then I can tell that default spotting is actually on point and realistic. (I have the same confirmed from friends running other VR headsets - Oculus, HP and Pimax).

With regards to what is being done online (MP), you will never be at an equal with someone using TIR5 and the ability to tilt their head 10* for a complete rear view. There are positives and negatives to each system, but attempting to customize DCS based on what you experience in MP is ridiculous. At best, it would be an idea (I have voiced it before), to have ED introduce an ability for a server host to decide whether a server should be open to all, only TIR5/non-tracking users, or only VR users. If this is doable (based on settings in DCS (VR enabled/disabled)), you could find servers where the common ground is adjusted. At the end of the day, even though someone might fly with TIR and have the ability to use a higher pixel screen or look around without straining themselves, it's actually VR that is point accurate with IRL. Take that with pride, and instead, find a better server, honestly!

 

Fully agree.

Edited August 11 by YoYo

[zerO_crash]

On 8/10/2024 at 7:50 AM, PawlaczGMD said:

MSAA x2, high details, Pimax Crystal 100% res (125% in the center with QuadViews). 

I practically see no spotting dots.  I missed every merge in MP today. 

It might be just me, but it feels like the spotting system got worse for my settings (very high resolution).

You are talking about spotting 20-ish miles away, but your headset has much lower resolution, which seems to be the main factor deciding how large the spotting dots are. For me they don't exist. 

Against the sky my visibility is definitely below 10 miles, unless I zoom in it's like the enemy isn't rendered. And much harder to spot anything against the ground in hot aspect.

 

 

I am running 4x MSAA, such that the aliasing is being done within a pixel. When seeing jet-sized targets at above 30nm, it's sub-pixel size target, and nothing solid (no dot). It's as described, a very soft silhouette/shadow, and very mild at that. It does indeed become something that you "might" notice, but are far from guaranteed.

 

With what you are mentioning, it might very well be that you are one of those affected as per latest patch notes. Generally, the spotting has been good over the last 1-ish year +. Default (non/improved - realistic), with a option for "improved" with somewhat more defined "black dots". 
 

What you can try, is set up an engagement in editor where you start in the air with a aircraft ahead of you. Start with a tanker/bigger plane, and go to smaller ones. Try to measure at what ranges you can actually see the following, bearing in mind that aspect plays a role. That would provide a reference for just how much you are affected by the current update.

Edited August 11 by zerO_crash

[BeerNfrites]

On 8/10/2024 at 6:50 AM, PawlaczGMD said:

MSAA x2, high details, Pimax Crystal 100% res (125% in the center with QuadViews). 

I practically see no spotting dots.  I missed every merge in MP today. 

It might be just me, but it feels like the spotting system got worse for my settings (very high resolution).

You are talking about spotting 20-ish miles away, but your headset has much lower resolution, which seems to be the main factor deciding how large the spotting dots are. For me they don't exist. 

Against the sky my visibility is definitely below 10 miles, unless I zoom in it's like the enemy isn't rendered. And much harder to spot anything against the ground in hot aspect.

 

 

This is exactly what I'm experiencing.

I've been using the P51 free flight instant action on Normandy to test different settings and nothing so far has shown a spotting dot.

I load in at roughly 10nm from a pair of P51s in front, I can use labels to see the distance and then cycling through to turn off the labels to check if there are any spotting dots. They never appear.

I can 'spot' the planes at roughly 4nm but these are just the single pixels of the models being rendered and not spotting dots.

I'm running a Quest Pro @ 1.2 PD, Quad Views at 1.35x for the focus area. Switching between all the different AA modes makes no difference, switching between improved and default spotting dots makes no difference. At the moment for me it's like spotting dots are turned off.

 

[josef]

On 8/10/2024 at 11:54 AM, zerO_crash said:

I use HP G2, and am specifically using the default (non-articulated) spotting dot. Isolating the question of whether this is real or not to how this compares to IRL, it is exactly as it is supposed to be. A pilot doesn't use MKI eyeball to spot infantry out of a jet, and even finding vehicles the size of a artillery or tank, can very often pose a challenge depending on the surrounding environment and its complexity. With non-improved spotting, you don't get a magical dot, but rather a natural fade-in of a unit. The best way to test this, is by using A-A as a benchmark. I am able to spot a jet-fighter sized (F-16/MiG-29) target at some roughly 12-18 miles depending on factors like lightning/background/camouflage/aspect/etc... If I focus deeply on an area/point, I can pick out a soft shadow of a fighter at as much as 24-25 miles. Those metrics, are absolutely within what IRL numbers are! Now, attempting to find a target on the ground, becomes obviously more of a feat considering obstructions and the likes. Still, if you "articulated" spotting dot, you will see ground targets as groups of lack dots intermingling outside of the drawing distance (flying at higher altitude). This, for one, is not only ruining immersion, but also giving a negative impact to ground warfare, as it allows to see units that upon zooming or using optics, are behind obstacles. As such, regardless of your sight (use VR glass inserts), if you care about realism, then I can tell that default spotting is actually on point and realistic. (I have the same confirmed from friends running other VR headsets - Oculus, HP and Pimax).

G2 I've used it, too.

You can see it from this far away, You have great eyes, just great. Hartmann or Nishizawa Hiroyoshi. 

I can't even see with a Pimax crystal.

Edited August 11 by josef

[draconus]

On 8/10/2024 at 5:28 AM, josef said:

the F-16 near 10 nautical miles has become a pixel

What did you expect? An "I'm here!" banner? You confirm that you can see F-16 at 10nm which is already beyond very good RL visibility.

@zerO_crashThere are some helpers available for the VR too, like necksafer which also allows you to check 6 with minimal head turn, so it's not like VR players are all clean and realistic clients either.

Guys, I advise you to check again the visibility using my mission. 

 

Edited August 11 by draconus

[Why485]

16 hours ago, YoYo said:

I think the last patch did nothing for VR, it concerns 2D:

FYI, this patch changed nothing for 2D. I'm not sure what that patch note is referring to, because DLAA/TAA/DLSS have not changed in the slightest. See my post in the other spotting thread.  

[PawlaczGMD]

15 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

I am running 4x MSAA, such that the aliasing is being done within a pixel. When seeing jet-sized targets at above 30nm, it's sub-pixel size target, and nothing solid (no dot). It's as described, a very soft silhouette/shadow, and very mild at that. It does indeed become something that you "might" notice, but are far from guaranteed.

 

With what you are mentioning, it might very well be that you are one of those affected as per latest patch notes. Generally, the spotting has been good over the last 1-ish year +. Default (non/improved - realistic), with a option for "improved" with somewhat more defined "black dots". 
 

What you can try, is set up an engagement in editor where you start in the air with a aircraft ahead of you. Start with a tanker/bigger plane, and go to smaller ones. Try to measure at what ranges you can actually see the following, bearing in mind that aspect plays a role. That would provide a reference for just how much you are affected by the current update.

 

I set up a test mission with KC135(large) and F18(medium) as spotting targets against the sky at day. Cold aspect, co-altitude, I'm trail behind them and they are at different ranges (5,6,8,10,15,20,25,30 nm etc).

My results at 100% Pimax Crystal resolution, MSAAx2:

improved spotting dots on: large target 8nm, medium target 6nm (I see nothing like a spotting dot, they are nonexistent at this setting at all distances as far as I can tell)

improved spotting dots off: large target 10nm, medium target 8nm (I think I see a slight improvement, and spotting dot is actually rendered)

And you say you can see stuff at around 30 nm? This is a huge difference. My eyesight is good btw.

Frankly, I don't understand why the spotting system always put larger dots at lower resolutions. Wouldn't it be fair to keep the solid angle subtended by the dot constant, regardless of resolution?

For an arbitrary example say that at 1080p you see a 4-pixel(2x2) dot at 20 nm. If Pimax res is 2880x2880 per eye, this is roughly 2.5 times larger than 1080p. Therefore, I should see a 4-pixel dot at 50 nm, and a 25-pixel(5x5) dot at 20 nm, and then a 100-pixel (10x10) dot at 10nm, etc. But this is not the case as dots don't exist for me as far as I can tell. And I remember using Quest 2 and Pico 4, where the dots were huge, as their resolution was much lower. So this is not just my subjective impression, as when I had a lower-res headset, I could see the dots just fine and I thought they were big.

In before spotting an f18 at 6nm is realistic - that's not the point. The point is that it is very significantly easier to spot at lower resolutions. So if it realistic at my settings, it would make it unrealistic at lower resolution. Can we pick a distance that will be the same for everyone? What concerns me here is the imbalance and incentivizing playing the game/sim looking worse, when it can look so good.

If this guy has visibility at 20-30 nm and I at 6nm, this is a huge advantage, as he can set up a merge as he wishes, and I'm racing to even spot him before the merge. Very critical in cold war and earlier scenarios.

Edited August 12 by PawlaczGMD

[SturmVogel]

В 01.08.2024 в 12:20, BIGNEWY сказал:

Hi, we are still looking at the feedback, it seems to be mixed at the moment, we have passed on all the feedback and all the different opinions to the team. We may see more tweaks in the future. 

thank you 

Thank you too for feedback!

 

Since last patch long range contacts 3+ nm looks better, but when comes in close range they just dissapear. This is weird when long range contacts has better visibility then close range. Still feels unplayble. Why just not back before July patch values?

 

P.S. WMR system with Odyssey+