resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[Tippis]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Mine in 4K do actually appear to cover the aircraft. These are the default unedited labels.

They also apparently change in size which doesn't happen unless you alter them since they're defined as text overlays of a fixed point size.

They also don't seem to cover the aircraft, but it's hard to tell with the jpeg artefacting. That's part of why you don't use jpeg to show off pixel-level details.

[Parkour]

Updated as I could still see it's posts:

1. Hover your cursor over Tippis's icon.
2. Wait for the pop-up menu.
3. Select the Ignore button at the bottom right.
4. Select Update Preferences in the new screen.
5. Select the Gear icon next to the name in the Ignored Users list
6. Select Change Ignored Content
7. Select Posts, Messages, Mentions and Signatures
8. Select Update Preferences

Finally, it's gone.

[Branimir76]

8 hours ago, Tippis said:

They also apparently change in size which doesn't happen unless you alter them since they're defined as text overlays of a fixed point size.

They also don't seem to cover the aircraft, but it's hard to tell with the jpeg artefacting. That's part of why you don't use jpeg to show off pixel-level details.

Dont troll.
I fly formation every day in DCS. Black squares literary cover the upper half of the planes.

[Cab]

8 minutes ago, Branimir76 said:

Dont troll.
I fly formation every day in DCS. Black squares literary cover the upper half of the planes.

In formation? How close?

I ask because I don’t see anything dot related when they’re within a couple of miles or so.

[Tippis]

6 hours ago, Branimir76 said:

Dont troll.

It's not really trolling to simply question his interpretation of  the images he provided, seeing as how they don't really seem to show what he says. You'll note that you then seem to offer the same differing opinion as to what we're seeing…

6 hours ago, Branimir76 said:

I fly formation every day in DCS. Black squares literary cover the upper half of the planes.

Ok… and? That sounds like you're talking about the spotting dots, in which case, see the above question about what ranges we're talking about. How large do they get? And if if you're talking about the spotting dots, how does that relate to anything in the post you quoted? We're talking about the appearance and position of the neutral dot labels, and the way they're behaving.

It's particularly fun to do so in relation to how that label is defined by default in the DCS install where, as mentioned, they don't change size (the label system simply doesn't allow for it), they should stay centred (but that will depend on where DCS thinks the character block centre is relative to the actual centre of the “·”-character used to draw that dot), they have a ridiculously long range (32km before the label shows nothing for airplanes) and a rather annoying close-in range (they start being rendered only 500m out). Oh, and according to the definition, they're supposed to be a 30% dark grey (close to this) rather than black.

Spoiler

In fact, let's look at the whole definition…

local function NEUTRAL_DOT(hundred_percent_dist,five_percent_dist,cutoff_dist)
	local res = {
		[500]	= EMPTY,
	}
	local points = (five_percent_dist - hundred_percent_dist)/2000
	local last_x = 0
	for i = 1,points,1 do 
		last_x 		= hundred_percent_dist + (i - 1) * 2000
		local opacity 	= 0.95 * (1 - math.sqrt(last_x/five_percent_dist)) + 0.05
		res[last_x] 	= {"·","CenterCenter",0,opacity,0,2}
	end
	res[last_x + 2000] = EMPTY
	return res
end

local baseNeutralDotColor = {75,75,75} 

LEVEL_NEUTRAL_DOT = {
	AirFormat 	 = NEUTRAL_DOT(1000,30000),
	GroundFormat = NEUTRAL_DOT(1000,20000),
	NavyFormat 	 = NEUTRAL_DOT(1000,40000),
	WeaponFormat = NEUTRAL_DOT(1000,10000),
	--------------------------------------------------------
	ColorNeutralSide		= baseNeutralDotColor,
	…
	--------------------------------------------------
	font_properties 		= {"DejaVuLGCSans.ttf", 11, 0, 0, 0},
}

The first function (NEUTRAL_DOT) takes a set of distances, where the “5% distance” is the most pertinent one, and sets up a group of 2km range segments where each segment gets its own inverse-square-law-defined fade amount (opacity). The lablel for that segment is then defined as the character · <- the infamous dot in the dot label, to be drawn at the given opacity, centred both horizontally and vertically on top of the contact.

Then is the RGB colour definition: a dark grey — 75,75,75 equates to roughly 30%, or #4b4b4b in hex.

Finally, the LEVEL_NEUTRAL_DOT is the array that the game uses for rendering these dots, and this array is filled with separate definitions for the different target types using the above function. The same grey colour is applied to everything, and then the font is given: 11pt Deja Vu with no decorations.

Now, the question is, do they actually show up like that for the client? If they don't what has happened between the definition file and the actual rendering? Is the neutral dot defined internally, in spite of also appearing the labels.lua file? Is it overwritten by a player preference file? Is it overwritten by a file included in the mission? Or is this a file that doesn't get updated properly so different installs have different definitions?

Edited October 28, 2024 by Tippis

[YoYo]

5 hours ago, Branimir76 said:

I fly formation every day in DCS. Black squares literary cover the upper half of the planes.

Noticed the same, black box with the plane LOD. Very poor look. I hope they back to version before this one soon.

[Tippis]

5 minutes ago, YoYo said:

Noticed the same, black box with the plane LOD. Very poor look. I hope they back to version before this one soon.

Can you catch a screen shot, preferably showing different contacts at different ranges and sizes? And as png.

I wonder if there might not be yet another rendering error that is making the rounds that is making it even more confusing as to what spotting dots are and look like.

[Branimir76]

9 hours ago, Cab said:

In formation? How close?

I ask because I don’t see anything dot related when they’re within a couple of miles or so.

From couple of feet to 10 miles when breaking formation. 2-5 miles is the worst.

3 hours ago, Tippis said:

It's not really trolling to simply question his interpretation of  the images he provided, seeing as how they don't really seem to show what he says. You'll note that you then seem to offer the same differing opinion as to what we're seeing…

Ok… and? That sounds like you're talking about the spotting dots, in which case, see the above question about what ranges we're talking about. How large do they get? And if if you're talking about the spotting dots, how does that relate to anything in the post you quoted? We're talking about the appearance and position of the neutral dot labels, and the way they're behaving.

It's particularly fun to do so in relation to how that label is defined by default in the DCS install where, as mentioned, they don't change size (the label system simply doesn't allow for it), they should stay centred (but that will depend on where DCS thinks the character block centre is relative to the actual centre of the “·”-character used to draw that dot), they have a ridiculously long range (32km before the label shows nothing for airplanes) and a rather annoying close-in range (they start being rendered only 500m out). Oh, and according to the definition, they're supposed to be a 30% dark grey (close to this) rather than black.

  Reveal hidden contents

In fact, let's look at the whole definition…

local function NEUTRAL_DOT(hundred_percent_dist,five_percent_dist,cutoff_dist)
	local res = {
		[500]	= EMPTY,
	}
	local points = (five_percent_dist - hundred_percent_dist)/2000
	local last_x = 0
	for i = 1,points,1 do 
		last_x 		= hundred_percent_dist + (i - 1) * 2000
		local opacity 	= 0.95 * (1 - math.sqrt(last_x/five_percent_dist)) + 0.05
		res[last_x] 	= {"·","CenterCenter",0,opacity,0,2}
	end
	res[last_x + 2000] = EMPTY
	return res
end

local baseNeutralDotColor = {75,75,75} 

LEVEL_NEUTRAL_DOT = {
	AirFormat 	 = NEUTRAL_DOT(1000,30000),
	GroundFormat = NEUTRAL_DOT(1000,20000),
	NavyFormat 	 = NEUTRAL_DOT(1000,40000),
	WeaponFormat = NEUTRAL_DOT(1000,10000),
	--------------------------------------------------------
	ColorNeutralSide		= baseNeutralDotColor,
	…
	--------------------------------------------------
	font_properties 		= {"DejaVuLGCSans.ttf", 11, 0, 0, 0},
}

The first function (NEUTRAL_DOT) takes a set of distances, where the “5% distance” is the most pertinent one, and sets up a group of 2km range segments where each segment gets its own inverse-square-law-defined fade amount (opacity). The lablel for that segment is then defined as the character · <- the infamous dot in the dot label, to be drawn at the given opacity, centred both horizontally and vertically on top of the contact.

Then is the RGB colour definition: a dark grey — 75,75,75 equates to roughly 30%, or #4b4b4b in hex.

Finally, the LEVEL_NEUTRAL_DOT is the array that the game uses for rendering these dots, and this array is filled with separate definitions for the different target types using the above function. The same grey colour is applied to everything, and then the font is given: 11pt Deja Vu with no decorations.

Now, the question is, do they actually show up like that for the client? If they don't what has happened between the definition file and the actual rendering? Is the neutral dot defined internally, in spite of also appearing the labels.lua file? Is it overwritten by a player preference file? Is it overwritten by a file included in the mission? Or is this a file that doesn't get updated properly so different installs have different definitions?

 

I dont know what your problem is. 
I SEE BLACK SQUARES COVERING AIRCRAFTS.
2-5 miles is the worst, because the plane itself begins to appear and the square is covering it.

[Cab]

20 minutes ago, Branimir76 said:

From couple of feet to 10 miles when breaking formation. 2-5 miles is the worst.

I dont know what your problem is. 
I SEE BLACK SQUARES COVERING AIRCRAFTS.
2-5 miles is the worst, because the plane itself begins to appear and the square is covering it.

I’d be willing to bet the problem is on your end, and likely not difficult to correct.

 

Edited October 28, 2024 by Cab

[Tippis]

21 minutes ago, Branimir76 said:

From couple of feet to 10 miles when breaking formation. 2-5 miles is the worst.

Again, this sounds an awful lot like you're coming across some pretty odd rendering error, possibly triggered by the spotting dot functionality, but ultimately a different matter.

Based on that description, we can rule out labels — they don't appear that close and should disappear much farther out. They shouldn't be spotting dots, since those should not appear that close. Could be LoD issue where the model is either picked from the wrong level, or rendered wrong, or just gets some good old broken poly errors.

21 minutes ago, Branimir76 said:

I dont know what your problem is. 

The problem is that you think I have a problem, and you're inserting yourself in conversations as if they were directed at you and discussing the problem you're having rather than the problems the other guy is describing. If you are not talking about neutral dot labels — the thing we were talking about — then your particular issue is not related to the quote you were answering. And again, based on your description, you aren't because what you're seeing doesn't fit the behaviour of neutral dot labels.

I am simply trying to figure out what is going on with all the disparate reports of what are supposedly the same dots come about.

In particular, I'm making clear the differences between the various dots the game uses, with how they behave in response to parameters such as range and resolution, so as to figure out exactly what is going wrong with which part. So, to clarify a few things:

How large are your black squares?
Are they actually black (I'm not being facetious here — it's an important distinguishing observation)?
Do they change size?
Are they aliased or faded in any way, in whole or around the edges?
At what ranges do they appear? (I suppose this has mostly been covered, but if there's a difference in any of the above as range changes, that's an important observation as well.)
What's your resolution and does the problem persist at different resolutions? Does the resolution alter the size of the squares?

21 minutes ago, Branimir76 said:

I SEE BLACK SQUARES COVERING AIRCRAFTS.

Good for you. No-one is disputing this.

But you need to be a bit more precise in your description (and if possible with unaltered png screenshots to support them, preferably of multiple contacts at different ranges) so we can try to figure out whether it's the dots that are screwing you over or something else.

[MAXsenna]

I dont know what your problem is. 
I SEE BLACK SQUARES COVERING AIRCRAFTS.
2-5 miles is the worst, because the plane itself begins to appear and the square is covering it.

He's just trying to have this issue solved! Why won't you post screen grabs? I'd like to see those from 10 feet.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, Cab said:

I’d be willing to bet the problem is on your end, and likely not difficult to correct.

I see black squares covering the aircraft too but in my case, on a monitor, I have the option to turn them off. That’s not possible in VR. I’m sure this isn’t the final goal for these things but it sure looks awful right now. 

[Cab]

27 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I see black squares covering the aircraft too but in my case, on a monitor, I have the option to turn them off. That’s not possible in VR. I’m sure this isn’t the final goal for these things but it sure looks awful right now. 

But at what range? Branimir76 wrote he sees them when the aircraft is as close as a couple of feet.

I see nothing like that

Edited October 28, 2024 by Cab

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Cab said:

But at what range? Branimir76 wrote he sees them when the aircraft is as close as a couple of feet.

I see nothing like that

Several miles for me. Not sure about the claim of seeing these at a few feet. A screenshot would help. 
 

This?! I didn’t think this was real…
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/335334-new-spotting-is-great-new-spotting-is-overcooked-feedback-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5540865

Edited October 28, 2024 by SharpeXB

[=475FG= Dawger]

Spotting dots in VR turn off very dramatically several miles away.

 

[MAXsenna]

Several miles for me. Not sure about the claim of seeing these at a few feet. A screenshot would help. 
 
This?! I didn’t think this was real…
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/335334-new-spotting-is-great-new-spotting-is-overcooked-feedback-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5540865

Yeah, I thought that was a hoax. Hence I asked about it. Just be a bug or a mod. Looks like some sort of Plane Porn censorship.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[draconus]

16 hours ago, Tippis said:

In fact, let's look at the whole definition…

Thanks for the code. Your help is appreciated. Now the devs can quickly find it and remove it for good

[Tippis]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

Thanks for the code. Your help is appreciated. Now the devs can quickly find it and remove it for good

Heh.

Again, this is for the neutral dot labels, since there's some confusion as to what those dots are supposed to look like in comparison to the spotting dots. It gives us a very clear definition that lets us say if and when we're seeing those labels rather than some other dot. A lot of this discussion seems to devolve into “what is it we're looking at here, really?”, and here we have one thing that we can very clearly identify.

I don't think there's anything positive to gain from removing dot labels.

[Zakson85]

I haven't posted since the last patch. Currently, DCS is the perfect production for me. It is obvious that satisfied players do not participate much on the forum. I see everyone with 30nm. On Cold War servers, I can shoot 4~5 blind pilots in one flight. It's an amazing feeling how they keep falling and falling. As for better enemy detection, I recommend setting all possible graphic options to minimum. This gives you the opportunity to observe your opponent from an even further distance. We can also turn off trees and buildings. This is a very nice option, especially in PvP servers... additionally, in the most realistic military simulator for civilians. This gives an incredible advantage and it is available to everyone :D. At the end of my very wise description of the situation, I recommend the MiG19 plane! The plane can take off and land on any surface available in the game. Additionally, he returns wonderfully to the base without a wing and in flames

ps.

The dots sometimes cover the plane when I'm close to it. This is a bit problematic when identifying an opponent. But it's good that we have a text radar on "Enigma"

Have a nice day Greetings to the Blue Enigma paratroopers

[Turbonix]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Zakson85:

I haven't posted since the last patch. Currently, DCS is the perfect production for me. It is obvious that satisfied players do not participate much on the forum. I see everyone with 30nm. On Cold War servers, I can shoot 4~5 blind pilots in one flight. It's an amazing feeling how they keep falling and falling. As for better enemy detection, I recommend setting all possible graphic options to minimum. This gives you the opportunity to observe your opponent from an even further distance. We can also turn off trees and buildings. This is a very nice option, especially in PvP servers... additionally, in the most realistic military simulator for civilians. This gives an incredible advantage and it is available to everyone :D. At the end of my very wise description of the situation, I recommend the MiG19 plane! The plane can take off and land on any surface available in the game. Additionally, he returns wonderfully to the base without a wing and in flames

@Tippis
That is exactly my definition of an exploit... 
That should be impossible to do. Or at least server settings should be able to set so some minimum graphic settings. 
Look at ARMA3 for example.

@Zakson85
no offense that you have fun playing like that, just to get kills over kills. Be happy with it.
Unfair is not the right word for that, but in my opinion you´re sort of laughing about people who take DCS as some kind of serious immersive simulation.
I think you should better go play AceCombat or Battlefield and get your killstreak there.
Sorry that im a litte pissed about people doing stuff like that.
But this is similar like guys removing vegetation in a milsim game like ARMA or PostScriptum just to have an advantage over others. They should better go and play UnrealTournament or Call of Duty..

@Zakson85 if your whole post was satire on the current spotting dots situation, it is a really good one

 

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by Turbonix

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Turbonix said:

if your post was satire, it is a really good one

I’m sure it is

That being said I’m sure there are many players who just enjoy easy exploits in the game

[Zakson85]

I won't answer whether this is satire or a true position. I'm curious why you direct your anger and frustration at people who use the capabilities of dcs and not at its creators for allowing such a thing. Thank you for recommending great titles to play. I know most of them and they have similar problems as dcs (arma3). We have what we have, there is no better simulation. IL2 Korea will be released, so I will give the blue F4 pilots some peace

ps.
I always use exploit autostart to start the plane!

[KoN]

On 10/28/2024 at 4:26 AM, Parkour said:

Updated as I could still see it's posts:

1. Hover your cursor over Tippis's icon.
2. Wait for the pop-up menu.
3. Select the Ignore button at the bottom right.
4. Select Update Preferences in the new screen.
5. Select the Gear icon next to the name in the Ignored Users list
6. Select Change Ignored Content
7. Select Posts, Messages, Mentions and Signatures
8. Select Update Preferences

Finally, it's gone.

Grow up .

If you don't like it PM each other's accounts and work it out.

This is an adult platform for DCS spotting issues not your issues. 

Kids . 

[KoN]

5 hours ago, Zakson85 said:

I haven't posted since the last patch. Currently, DCS is the perfect production for me. It is obvious that satisfied players do not participate much on the forum. I see everyone with 30nm. On Cold War servers, I can shoot 4~5 blind pilots in one flight. It's an amazing feeling how they keep falling and falling. As for better enemy detection, I recommend setting all possible graphic options to minimum. This gives you the opportunity to observe your opponent from an even further distance. We can also turn off trees and buildings. This is a very nice option, especially in PvP servers... additionally, in the most realistic military simulator for civilians. This gives an incredible advantage and it is available to everyone :D. At the end of my very wise description of the situation, I recommend the MiG19 plane! The plane can take off and land on any surface available in the game. Additionally, he returns wonderfully to the base without a wing and in flames

ps.

The dots sometimes cover the plane when I'm close to it. This is a bit problematic when identifying an opponent. But it's good that we have a text radar on "Enigma"

Have a nice day Greetings to the Blue Enigma paratroopers

Yes this simulator is very real . Everyone screaming it's a realistic flight simulator  .

No it's a broken so called flight simulator. 

 

Yet here we are with bigger problems. 

[SharpeXB]

I can’t begrudge anyone doing everything within the rules to win, technically that’s not cheating. But the spotting system shouldn’t be open to easy exploits like lowering resolution and such. Players don’t want to be forced to look at an ugly game in order to not be at a disadvantage. The previous v2.8 version was definitely open to such exploits, so much so that radar wasn’t even needed in the game. I think we would all like that exploit to be removed. 

Edited October 29, 2024 by SharpeXB