resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[PeevishMonkey]

I'll leave aside for now the obvious oddities of this new system, like this (all 12 dots at the same distance)

 

and the visibility of ground units, which is also not exciting...

It seems to me that the problem is mainly that the ability to detect the aircraft varies unevenly. At “long” distances - OK, at “medium”, when these points appear - excellent (even too much, as it seems to me), but then “close” everything becomes dramatically worse.  Until you fit the enemy into your sights (for WWII), here everithing is OK :). This is not logical.

On the other hand, at distance “close” the the monitor size + FOV plays a role... But any way, it's strange...

And yes, I would reduce the visibility range to made it a little bit more close to reality, but this is not my simulator.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by PeevishMonkey

[James DeSouza]

4 hours ago, Johan4668 said:

Version 2.8 on 4k or high ppd vr the spotting is hard.

Spotting is supposed to be hard.  It's why sensor suits, radars, JTAC'S, AWACS, etc exist.  

[James DeSouza]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

In every other realm DCS strives for realism but in this aspect it seems like it’s trying to pander to an audience.

They have to pander to their audience to have a product.  And this isn't the first time.  Remember when the Jeff came out with missile models that are actually realistic and so just effortlessly killed everyone and people wanted it nerfed?

I just want an option to toggle this awful system off, that's all.

 

Though I am deeply curious what the day to day life of people saying giant black blocks in the sky are realistic is like.  How do they see things?  What is their vision like?  Is their vision better or worse than the norm?  How does it effect their daily lives.

Edited October 29, 2023 by James DeSouza

[rob10]

1 hour ago, James DeSouza said:

Though I am deeply curious what the day to day life of people saying giant black blocks in the sky are realistic is like.

People need to realize that just because they are seeing giant black blocks in the sky doesn't mean that those who are happier with the new system vs the old are seeing giant black blocks in the sky.  I don't see many (if anyone) saying that giant black blocks are realistic, but those seeing them seem to think everyone is seeing it that way and those in favour of the new system want to keep that (and most if not all who like the new system realize/agree that it needs tweaking for those who have giant black blocks).  VR seems to be generally a worse experience from what I read, but in 2-D I am really happy with the changes.  That suggests that it needs to be tweaked, not thrown out.

Options are great, but people also forget that every option, no matter how small, has a performance cost (if only a tiny one) and eventually that adds up to something meaningful.

Edited October 29, 2023 by rob10

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, James DeSouza said:

I just want an option to toggle this awful system off, that's all.

And this option already exists in the form of dot labels in 2.8. I don’t see why that’s a bad system. 

[James DeSouza]

57 minutes ago, rob10 said:

People need to realize that just because they are seeing giant black blocks in the sky doesn't mean that those who are happier with the new system vs the old are seeing giant black blocks in the sky.  I don't see many (if anyone) saying that giant black blocks are realistic, but those seeing them seem to think everyone is seeing it that way and those in favour of the new system want to keep that (and most if not all who like the new system realize/agree that it needs tweaking for those who have giant black blocks).  VR seems to be generally a worse experience from what I read, but in 2-D I am really happy with the changes.  That suggests that it needs to be tweaked, not thrown out.

Options are great, but people also forget that every option, no matter how small, has a performance cost (if only a tiny one) and eventually that adds up to something meaningful.

 

Everyone has giant black blocks.  That's the whole point.  VR players have GINORMOUS black blocks, but even flat screen players have giant black boxes because it's just the dot label setting.  Hell this thread is full of screenshots of it.

So when you look up into the sky to see overflying aircraft, do you see the jets 40,000 feet up as giant black blocks?

22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And this option already exists in the form of dot labels in 2.8. I don’t see why that’s a bad system. 

Because that way turning it on means it was your choice to do it, so you don't have an excuse.  If you have to turn the label on then you can't pretend to yourself that you're doing it "realistic", but if you dont have the option then it's the game forcing it on you.

[Tippis]

41 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And this option already exists in the form of dot labels in 2.8. I don’t see why that’s a bad system. 

Because dot labels are UI element and are handled as such.

Of course, this new feature also has the option to toggle them off so it's a moot point. And at least it's client-authoritative so you have a say in the matter.

 

  

19 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

Everyone has giant black blocks. 

Only the ones who haven't turned it off.

Oh, and turning labels on or off isn't always your choice, btw… And while it takes a lot of work, it's entirely possible to make dot labels far more realistic than any of the pre-2.9 spotting mechanics.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Tippis

[James DeSouza]

2 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Of course, this new feature also has the option to toggle them off so it's a moot point.

It doesn't.  That's one of its many problems.  The thing you put in your autoexec that is supposed to disable it doesn't work.

Hopefully at some point it will, who knows.

[SharpeXB]

27 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

Because that way turning it on means it was your choice to do it, so you don't have an excuse.  If you have to turn the label on then you can't pretend to yourself that you're doing it "realistic", but if you dont have the option then it's the game forcing it on you.

The new system is labels for people who think labels are cheating

9 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

It doesn't.  That's one of its many problems.  The thing you put in your autoexec that is supposed to disable it doesn't work.

Hopefully at some point it will, who knows.

The “realistic” default spotting shouldn’t have an on/off button. Again because labels already have that. I’m sure it only has that now because it’s a WIP

Edited October 29, 2023 by SharpeXB

[James DeSouza]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

The new system is labels for people who think labels are cheating

Only thing that makes sense to me too, since it is just the dot labels but forced on.  Either way as long as I can disable it personally I don't care.  It'll put me at a disadvantage but my <profanity> eyesight already did that :D.

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The “realistic” default spotting shouldn’t have an on/off button. Again because labels already have that. I’m sure it only has that now because it’s a WIP.

If they permanently force it on then hopefully I can get some refunds.  I bought a flight sim, not a game where you fight the damned borg.

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

If they permanently force it on then hopefully I can get some refunds.  I bought a flight sim, not a game where you fight the damned borg.

Well the last time they tried to put in giant blobs with the Model Enlargement, it flopped. So…

I can’t figure why every time this is attempted it gets overdone.

[James DeSouza]

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I can’t figure why every time this is attempted it gets overdone.

Flight sims are played by older and less healthy people, both of those tend to have bad eyesight, any attempt to make things easily visible for those with bad eyesight will lead to them being ridiculous to those with good or okay eyesight.  Or at least that'd be my guess.  Look at the amount of people on this thread who say they do not see giant black dots on flat screen.  They do, because everyone does, it's what the renderer spits out, but the filter is their own individual eyesight.

[Why485]

4 hours ago, PeevishMonkey said:

It seems to me that the problem is mainly that the ability to detect the aircraft varies unevenly. At “long” distances - OK, at “medium”, when these points appear - excellent (even too much, as it seems to me), but then “close” everything becomes dramatically worse.  Until you fit the enemy into your sights (for WWII), here everithing is OK :). This is not logical.

On the other hand, at distance “close” the the monitor size + FOV plays a role... But any way, it's strange...

And yes, I would reduce the visibility range to made it a little bit more close to reality, but this is not my simulator.

Issues like this are almost inherent to any kind of dot or pixel based system. It's why I'm not a fan of the approach, and never was, even when I made the dot mod. A dot won't give you a silhouette to determine something like aspect to help identify and track a fighter during a dogfight.

To prevent the issue of close range planes becoming suddenly "invisible", the square dot would have to basically always be drawn, which means at short ranges it could obscure the plane in such a way that its silhouette and type aren't clear at ranges it should be.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Why485

[ataribaby]

As VR user I like new spotting. Maybe it can be finetuned to be little bit smaller, only little bit. Finally I am able spot something in VR. Thanks!

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

Flight sims are played by older and less healthy people, both of those tend to have bad eyesight

That includes me, my solution is just a bigger screen I wouldn’t expect the game to cater to my attributes. It’s up to me to adapt accordingly. 

[Tippis]

22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I wouldn’t expect the game to cater to my attributes. It’s up to me to adapt accordingly. 

You should expect it, because no, it's not up to you.

This isn't the 1980s – competent software makers cater to the client, because anything else is self-defeating folly.

[BIGNEWY]

folks, again please keep it civil and to the rules, if you have given feedback maybe take a break. 

thanks

 

[Matt Glover]

On 10/20/2023 at 12:02 AM, Licenceless said:

• In order to disable new “spotting dots” and revert to previous logic user can put “DotRendererExperiment = False” in autoexec.cfg file located in \Saved Games\DCS.openbeta\Config\ 
  If you don't have the file, you have to make one

   

   

 

Done this and it seems too do nothing.

[KoN]

17 hours ago, James DeSouza said:

They have to pander to their audience to have a product.  And this isn't the first time.  Remember when the Jeff came out with missile models that are actually realistic and so just effortlessly killed everyone and people wanted it nerfed?

I just want an option to toggle this awful system off, that's all.

 

Though I am deeply curious what the day to day life of people saying giant black blocks in the sky are realistic is like.  How do they see things?  What is their vision like?  Is their vision better or worse than the norm?  How does it effect their daily lives.

 

No one is saying its realistic . It needs Tweaking . 

WWII RAF pilots could see across the coast forming up formations , @ 22miles . 

F18 pilots spotting @ 20miles . but this is real life . 

Coming into land in cessna @ 10mils . 

But the human eye can catch things moving and track , at different ranges , light conditions , colour , ect . 

There are different flight sims to try all have a technical ways to LOD on screen and in VR . 

DCS just needs to tweak things in flat screen and VR and also have a on-off button for you to enjoy .  

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, KoN said:

WWII RAF pilots could see across the coast forming up formations , @ 22miles . 

Realize of course that they were seeing entire flights of larger bombers and such. In 2.8 you can see flights of B-17s from quite a great distance. Part of the trouble people have in these flight sims is that they’re looking for lone small fighter aircraft in multiplayer. That’s not a very realistic situation since real world combat aircraft hardly ever travel alone. 

[James DeSouza]

3 hours ago, KoN said:

No one is saying its realistic . It needs Tweaking . 

WWII RAF pilots could see across the coast forming up formations , @ 22miles . 

F18 pilots spotting @ 20miles . but this is real life . 

Coming into land in cessna @ 10mils . 

But the human eye can catch things moving and track , at different ranges , light conditions , colour , ect . 

There are different flight sims to try all have a technical ways to LOD on screen and in VR . 

DCS just needs to tweak things in flat screen and VR and also have a on-off button for you to enjoy .  

I have personally never heard of an RAF pilot seeing a formation on the other side of the channel (which would likely be more than 20 miles as an aside, the channel is only 20 miles at its absolute narrowest point), that wouldn't have been the norm.  There is this thing called "chain home", which was the early warning radar system.  They also had swarms of ground observers using telescopes and an audible equivalent of a telescope that I do not remember the name off right now, all hooked up to a landline network.  And this was to spot raids specifically coming over the channel.

If you could just see it, none of that would have been necessary.  Especially considering they had to create an entire second Chain Home (Low) system after the germans realized they could just fly lower than ~200 feet to bypass the radar.  What value would bypassing the radar have if guys could just see you.  Remember, almost all of the blitz was daylight bombing (for accuracy), they only switched to night bombing towards the end of it to lower losses.  And remember, Chain Home had a maximum ideal range of 100 miles, but it was practically lower than that (like always) and had a positional accuracy of ~10 miles.  What value does that have when you can just use your eyeballs?

Maybe in rare situations RAF pilots really could spot things at 22 miles, entire formations of bombers by the by, but it obviously is not the norm.

[ACS_Dev]

This new spotting system, at least for VR users (Quest 2, 1.0 resolution, MSAA 4X, no DLSS/FSR) is extremely overdone and downright comical in some situations.

To preface, I have had the privilege of countless opportunities to observe the F-1, 5 (T-38), 15, 16, 18, 22, 35, A-10, UH-60, CH-47, AH-64, KC-135, C-130, C-17, C-5 etc. etc. both in daytime and (attempts) at night in overcast, clear or foggy weather from all ranges, both with my (admittedly imperfect) eyes, with corrective lenses and through 8x binoculars.

If you want to get an idea of the realism of spotting distances at different ranges and you live in a 1st world country you can use ADSB exchange (free flight tracking website) in concert with Google Earth (also free) to identify ranges at which you spot approaching civilian airliners. For best results, focus on aircraft close in size to the KC-135 or E-3, then compare those results to what you get in game at the same range. If you want to make it easier on yourself and you live near an active airport you can go to it and see how far away you 'tally' landing aircraft or conversely how long you can maintain 'tally' on departing ones. You can also try this with static landmarks such as water towers, cell towers or tall buildings visible from your home, again using google maps/earth to find out how far away they are. It is likely that everyone reading this has the resources to test out for themselves how far they would be able to see at least tanker-sized aircraft in real life as opposed to VR.

For me, at least for fighters like 35 and 16, short of the rare reflections on a sunny day it is basically impossible to see them beyond 15 miles at the furthest, even with 8x binoculars. I have tried to follow them from the end of their runway into the sky and I inevitably lose them far closer than they would be lost in DCS. In VR I can see targets much further away, with larger aircraft being easily seen 20-30 miles out, even at night. Ground targets are similar, if not worse as about 10-15 miles out they bloom to massive white dots. The dots themselves aren't consistent either, popping in and out.

Essentially I'd like to see at least an option to force this system off in missions, if not a drastic reduction in effective spotting range.
 

[PeevishMonkey]

16 часов назад, James DeSouza сказал:

Maybe in rare situations RAF pilots really could spot things at 22 miles, entire formations of bombers by the by, but it obviously is not the norm.

AirForce of each country must have own Chuck Yeager... 

17 часов назад, SharpeXB сказал:

Part of the trouble people have in these flight sims is that they’re looking for lone small fighter aircraft in multiplayer. That’s not a very realistic situation since real world combat aircraft hardly ever travel alone.

In the reality for visibility range there is a big difference between:

1) one separate aircraft or may be two aircrafts 
or a number of aircrafts, chaotically distributed in air.

2)  couple of pairs/ small group of aircrafts

3) a lot of aircrafts in orderly formation.

In the first case visibility should be determined by the one way.

In the second, range of visibility becomes better in aproximately 25% in compare with case 1 (don't forget, this groupe usally a formation of aircrafts at one level closely located to each other). And it's confirmed by statistics.

And in the last (3th) case visibility is much higher them in previos two.  

Look at long wires far from you, angular resolution, calculated by their diameter and distance, may be 10 times smaller then "standart" angular resolution of the human eye. But it still visible.

Edited October 31, 2023 by PeevishMonkey

[darkman222]

As the thread is already 10 pages long. I did a search on parachute, with no return.

Sorry if mentioned before but: ejected pilots aka parachutists should not have the spotting dot enabled. I accidently chased ejected pilots instead of aircraft...

[PeevishMonkey]

58 минут назад, darkman222 сказал:

ejected pilots aka parachutists should not have the spotting dot enabled

It depends that kind of objects should have this spotting dot from ED point of view.

I confirm spotting dot for ejected pilot.