Following Procedures While in VR

[Horns]

One of the featurees mentioned in the F-4E description is "A new versatile set of UI features, that allows for live in-cockpit browsing of the manual". Today, for the first time in VR, I tried a cold start following the procedures from the F-14 online manual, and I realized just how valuable that feature could be. As things stand, the only way I can see to follow anything in VR is to have it on a second device (in my case an iPad) and try to read it through the few millimeters of space under the edge of my VR headset.

So, I was just wondering if there are any plans or aspirations to bring that feature to older Heatblur modules as well. If not, fair enough - I see why you might need to draw a line under new features in old modules - but if you did I'm sure I speak for many VR users when I say it would be greatly appreciated.

On that note, do any other VR users want to share how they deal with following manuals or other documents (eg self-written procedures) in-cockpit? I had written a bunch of notes to follow in the cockpit when I was using a flat screen, but I doubt those will be much more than a distraction in VR...

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

I use kneeboardbuilder I think, and add whatever I want to my kneeboard. Images, full pdfs, partial pdfs (like chuck photoguide for startup only for example)...

[Horns]

47 minutes ago, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

I use kneeboardbuilder I think, and add whatever I want to my kneeboard. Images, full pdfs, partial pdfs (like chuck photoguide for startup only for example)...

That’s the perfect solution, I’ll go get that program, cheers 

[Mr_sukebe]

I create my own KBs in PowerPoint, use Sniptool to turn them into .png files and then simply dump them into the correct folder.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Mr_sukebe

[Dentedend10]

I find that with the built in kneeboard, if it’s open then I cannot click anything on the right panels. Plus the in game kneeboard kinda breaks immersion 

try OpenKneeboard though! I just recently installed it and I have to say one of the best  additions to the sim! Immersion is great and it comes with lots of applications

[Lt_Jaeger]

Look for Openkneeboard. This app paired with a compatible graphic tablet is kind of the holy grail and adds lot of immersion as well as keeping all the stuff not fitting in the brain in writing (it's a lot for me) 

[Horns]

10 hours ago, Dentedend10 said:

I find that with the built in kneeboard, if it’s open then I cannot click anything on the right panels. Plus the in game kneeboard kinda breaks immersion 

try OpenKneeboard though! I just recently installed it and I have to say one of the best  additions to the sim! Immersion is great and it comes with lots of applications

 

9 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

Look for Openkneeboard. This app paired with a compatible graphic tablet is kind of the holy grail and adds lot of immersion as well as keeping all the stuff not fitting in the brain in writing (it's a lot for me) 

Thanks! I just downloaded OpenKneeboard, I'll check it out 

 

22 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

I create my own KBs in PowerPoint, use Sniptool to turn them into .png files and then simply dump them into the correct folder.

 

 

Ah ok cool, good to know, much appreciated 

[draconus]

On 11/26/2023 at 2:38 PM, Horns said:

...I'm sure I speak for many VR users when I say it would be greatly appreciated.

Sign me off, please. I need a kneeboard, like a board... on my knee. I don't take manuals into cockpit.

[Horns]

2 minutes ago, draconus said:

Sign me off, please. I need a kneeboard, like a board... on my knee. I don't take manuals into cockpit.

Cool, maybe ‘many’ but not all, noted 

[markturner1960]

Yeah, I wonder why with it being such a well rounded program ( and this applies to the standard DCS Kneeboard as well) why it is so difficult to make bookmarks persistent rather than having to set them up each mission

[actually_fred]

Probably not that difficult, it's just not seemed the most interesting way to spend my free time yet. That said, there are some minor complications: before bookmarks can be persistent, it needs to understand and track which kinds of content are persistent - and they can move.

For example:
- if you add a PDF, and bookmark page 5, the bookmark should be persistent
- what if the PDF is modified or replaced? Trash the bookmarks or assume the page numbers still make sense and keep them, assuming the page count is >= the bookmark? Change tracking for PDF is not usable for this.
- what if the bookmark is a text file and the text file is modified? The ideal would probably be to erase the bookmark if the modifications are *before* the bookmarked page, but otherwise should preserve it
- radio log bookmarks should not be persistent as the radio log itself is not
- mission briefing bookmarks should only be persistent within the same mission
- if you have a folder tab and you bookmark `b.png` within that folder, close openkneeboard, add `a.png` to that folder, then re-open OpenKneeboard, the bookmark should still point at `b.png` - even though the page number for that bookmark has been increased by one

[Horns]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:08 PM, actually_fred said:

Probably not that difficult, it's just not seemed the most interesting way to spend my free time yet. That said, there are some minor complications: before bookmarks can be persistent, it needs to understand and track which kinds of content are persistent - and they can move.

For example:
- if you add a PDF, and bookmark page 5, the bookmark should be persistent
- what if the PDF is modified or replaced? Trash the bookmarks or assume the page numbers still make sense and keep them, assuming the page count is >= the bookmark? Change tracking for PDF is not usable for this.
- what if the bookmark is a text file and the text file is modified? The ideal would probably be to erase the bookmark if the modifications are *before* the bookmarked page, but otherwise should preserve it
- radio log bookmarks should not be persistent as the radio log itself is not
- mission briefing bookmarks should only be persistent within the same mission
- if you have a folder tab and you bookmark `b.png` within that folder, close openkneeboard, add `a.png` to that folder, then re-open OpenKneeboard, the bookmark should still point at `b.png` - even though the page number for that bookmark has been increased by one

Many thanks for the insight actually_fred 

[actually_fred]

No, there’s no simple way for that, its 99% the same technical problem as bookmarks.

[markturner1960]

The add tab feature is also helpful, and when I first discovered it, it seemed the answer…..I wanted for example to add a “Controls” tab where all my graphics for HOTAS and simpit hardware bindings were stored for each module. however I quickly realised that this needs doing for every module, meaning you need a LOT of tabs, especially if you want to add some other tabs as well. Is there a way make a clickable menu within the app so you could choose subfolders within tabs?

Fantastic app btw Fred, thanks!

Edited December 17, 2023 by markturner1960

[actually_fred]

The easiest way to deal with that would probably be to add them to an aircraft tab's folder in saved games - you can see the paths it looks for those in the tab settings. If there's an X by the one in saved games, that just means that it doesn't exist yet, and you can create it if you want to.

I'm probably going to add some level of lua scriptability at some point; this would include fully-lua-defined tabs, but I probably will also add 'lua-assisted' tabs - e.g. a folder tab where you can write lua code that changes which folders it's looking for based on which aircraft you're flying.

I could also add 'custom prefix' to aircraft/terrain, e.g. "My Documents\Controls\<aircraft>", though this might be a bit too niche to be worthwhile, especially once it's possible with lua scripting.

Might also add JS scripting - it's my preference, but OpenKneeboard already deals with some lua, and it fits better with the current DCS modding community.

[IronMike]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:55 AM, draconus said:

I don't take manuals into cockpit.

Real pilots do though.

[draconus]

3 hours ago, IronMike said:

Real pilots do though.

Yeah, but weren't those quick reference guides and emergency/pocket checklists, instead of whole NATOPS?

[IronMike]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

Yeah, but weren't those quick reference guides and emergency/pocket checklists, instead of whole NATOPS?

Well, checklists are considered part of the manual, ofc, but sometimes taking with a NATOPS etc if needed would also happen, or other reading materials - remember the famous pic from BIO reading the Tailhook Association Magazine, etc. Additionally the checklists were far more than just a few cards you could clip on the kneeboard. Gabby for example tells how during training he was iirc at George, where they would be scheduled to fly 40hrs in an F-4C, 40 in a D and 40 in an E. But the C could be taken, the D had an issue and the E was the replacement jet, so they had to carry the checklists for all 3 jets every time not knowing which they would get, and it was a pack as thick as the Gutenberg bible in the end. And I am not sure if this applies for fighters, too, but in civil aviation for example it is FAA regulation that the AFM is on board during operation, etc. So overall, not an uncommon practice.

Edited December 20, 2023 by IronMike

[draconus]

Fair enough, thx for the info, good luck presenting them nicely in VR

[markturner1960]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:24 PM, actually_fred said:

The easiest way to deal with that would probably be to add them to an aircraft tab's folder in saved games - you can see the paths it looks for those in the tab settings. If there's an X by the one in saved games, that just means that it doesn't exist yet, and you can create it if you want to.

 

Cheers Fred, although I am not sure I have it understood fully in my head......You are saying I can add the controls pages for each jet in the relevant aircraft folder in saved games. I get that, but the issue there is they are among all the other pages and it means a lot of scrolling. 

We have multiple tabs now, bit only one is module specific. The ideal would be to have 4 or 5 tabs maybe available as module specific. Hopefully this may become a feature soon! 

[VirusAM]

+1 for open kneeboard.
I use it with a Wacom tablet and it is really nice

[VirusAM]

Cheers Fred, although I am not sure I have it understood fully in my head......You are saying I can add the controls pages for each jet in the relevant aircraft folder in saved games. I get that, but the issue there is they are among all the other pages and it means a lot of scrolling. 
We have multiple tabs now, bit only one is module specific. The ideal would be to have 4 or 5 tabs maybe available as module specific. Hopefully this may become a feature soon! 

An idea could be to have multiple customizable folders aircraft specific..
Loaded only if you take a slot with that aircraft.
Similar to what already happens with the saved games kneeboard..
I dont know how difficult it would be for Fred to code that.