correct as-is F-16 performance in dogfight

[Jasiński]

I need help with my F-16. When going 2-circle with Hornet, No matter what I do I always end up with Hornet on my tail. I don't outrate it while pulling full stick and keepieng corner speed (400-440 knots). Can someone help me with it?

[Buzz313th]

Unload the viper and point at his control zone..  It's a race for you to accelerate faster than him and get the viper behind his 3/9 line.  Make him continue using his nose authority to try and keep you infront of him, in turn he stays slow.  Pull the viper hard through 400 and then unload and accelerate from 350-450 while you make a mad dash for his control zone.  Cycle this sequence at the right times and you will end up offensive.   Unload when he is slow and pull hard when he is fast.  You have a huge acceleration advantage from 300-500, exploit that.  Use the vertical, nose low when you want to accelerate, nose high when you have too much energy.  Use the roll rate of the viper. Pirouette in the vertical to keep your lift vector on him.  When offensive, fly lag and pull hard for shots.  Flying lead will just get you slow.  

Edited December 12, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Jasiński]

What about using the burner? And how many G's I need to pull?

 

[Buzz313th]

1 minute ago, Jasiński said:

What about using the burner? And how many G's I need to pull?

 

Umm...   Do what you need to do with the throttle, stick and rudder to achieve what I mentioned above.   Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you're asking for what G's to pull and what power settings to use for such a fluid situation, I think you need a bit more time in BFM to see past the specifics and on to the realization of the fluid nature of whats happening.

[Jasiński]

Tried this and still Hornet is sitting on my tail and I don't outrate it.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Jasiński

[Hiob]

Maybe you find some clues therein.

[Jasiński]

I've already analyzed Growling videos but the only difference is that he has G effects turned off

 

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, Jasiński said:

What about using the burner? And how many G's I need to pull?

 

All BFM is done in relation to the bandit, so that's your answer.   You need to read up on some BFM exercises; the speeds etc. that you need to use are guidelines to help you form a game plan before the merge and for every move your bandit makes thereafter.   You're going to be looking at the bandit, so 'hitting your numbers' is more of a cross-check to make sure you're in the right speed range that you need to be, the rest is all about how and when to point the nose at the bandit.  Analyze tacview and see why you're losing 2c (are you really losing it, or are you just sitting there hoping that sustaining at 400 will win you the fight?  'cause that's silly)

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Jasiński said:

I've already analyzed Growling videos but the only difference is that he has G effects turned off

 

I‘m pretty sure he has not. When you pull „blackout Gs“, you most likely are not at your max sustained(!) turn rate. No wonder the Hornet eats you for breakfast in a two circle. You will loose a „pulling lead“ contest against the Hornet most of the time. Try to lag pursue him until you have him nicely in front of you. He may pull tight to counter you, but that will cost him all his energy. You can climb to counter that.

But that is all theory. Pretty tough to theorize about without actually sitting in the cockpit. ….and all easier said than done of course.

[Jasiński]

Guys I find out that my problem was poor energy management. I was either going too fast and making bigger circles, or going too slow and losing all of my energy, while trying to pull tight. It looks like I need to practice this Thanks for your help guys.

7 minutes ago, Hiob said:

When you pull „blackout Gs“, you most likely are not at your max sustained(!) turn rate.

You mean that I'm going too fast?

Edited December 12, 2023 by Jasiński

[Hiob]

6 minutes ago, Jasiński said:

Guys I find out that my problem was poor energy management. I was either going too fast and making bigger circles, or going too slow and losing all of my energy, while trying to pull tight. It looks like I need to practice this Thanks for your help guys.

Practice makes perfect. I have a hard time keeping corner speed, too. A lot of my dogfights end up in near stall speed scissors . Which, against AI, I can more often than not win, but it‘s not nice to watch.

6 minutes ago, Jasiński said:

 

You mean that I'm going too fast?

 

Possible, but more likely pulling too hard….. (both probably)

IIRC (). 350-400 is where you wanna be. 450 maybe too fast.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Hiob

[Jasiński]

2 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Possible, but more likely pulling too hard….. (both probably)

So what is your most optimal speed and G's? I want to check this.

[Hiob]

6 minutes ago, Jasiński said:

So what is your most optimal speed and G's? I want to check this.

The only credible source I can come up with right now, is Growling Sidewinder Videos. I‘m by no means an expert. I‘m fooling my way around through dogfights. Definitely better in theory than in practice, but I‘m no lexicon for numbers. I‘m sorry.

Try keeping it betwees 350 and 400 and see how many Gs you can pull without loosing speed. (Guesstimate…. 5-6…..)

 

Btw… we‘re strictly speaking „guns only“, right? In a Fox-2 fight, different rules apply of course!

Edited December 12, 2023 by Hiob

[Jasiński]

What about being defensive with Hornet on my 6?

36 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Btw… we‘re strictly speaking „guns only“, right? In a Fox-2 fight, different rules apply of course!

 

Yeah we're talking about guns only

[Hiob]

39 minutes ago, Jasiński said:

What about being defensive with Hornet on my 6?

R.I.P. 

Jink, hope he makes a mistake and overshoots, but most likely….

you‘re toast.

In all seriousness though, I think at some point your opponent simply has won…. and I‘d argue that moment is usually a couple of seconds before he pulls the trigger.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Hiob

[Scendore]

Best Corner Speed in the Viper is 450 or so knots with a slightly low nose.  Currently you can't really sustain a 9G pull and it's very hard to modulate the throttle to get best corner speed.  ED knows about it and it was mentioned by Wags during a podcast they are working on tuning the F-16 and F-18.  It was also mentioned it also behaves strangely with certain configurations.  The F-18 is also getting tweaked.  C.W. Lemoine (former F-16 pilot) did a little testing a few days ago.  

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Scendore

[Theodore42]

The Viper can out accelerate anything between 300 and 400 knots... Unload to less than 1 G and you go from 300 to 400 in about 2 seconds. Use the Small turn radius at 300 to get geometrically behind the bandit, unload 2 seconds to accelerate... that's the idea behind a low yo-yo btw. You can also out accelerate anything between about 350 and 500 while pulling about 3-5Gs.

If you get the hang of unloaded acceleration between 300 and 400 and loaded acceleration between 350 and 500 then you're going to be hard to catch.

Also, oblique (climbing) turns = bad; slice (diving) turns = good, especially vs the Hornet.

The first step to learning BFM is to understand turning circles. This is just the radius of the turns that you and the target are making. They change depending on your speed and the targets speed and the relationship between those two speeds over time, and the geometric relationship between you and the target. When you're learning just notice that this is happening.

The second thing to learn is the jargon for the geometric relationships between you and the target aircraft. The angle between your course and the target aircraft is lead angle and the difference between your course and your target's course, Heading-Course Angle. There are many different names for those two ideas but the concepts are universal. Learn to use your speed to manipulate the radii of your turning circles to control the lead angle and HCA between you and your target.

The third step is to understand that you will kill the target and that this is not a dance to look cool. Don't worry, you will automatically look cool when you kill the target.

The Fourth step is to study the Basic Fighter Maneuvers, because now you understand the geometry you're trying to manipulate, the acceleration (technique) by which you will do it, and your intention to kill the target. If you skip the first 3 steps you will only be practicing formation flying and will be unable to perceive how to utilize BFM to get the kill.

[Jupiter]

Generally the flight model of the Viper regarding sustained turn rate is quite off currently even referencing EDs own white paper. Somebody did a absolute awesome job testing the flight models and creating EM diagrams for most of the models we have now, you can see the actual performance there. I'll also add EDs own white paper so you can see the difference.
Link:
Subsonic Energy Maneuverability Diagrams For DCS https://www.scribd.com/document/657150462/Subsonic-Energy-Maneuverability-Diagrams-for-DC

DCS F-16C Viper Sustained turn rate.pdf

[itn]

23 minutes ago, Jupiter said:

Generally the flight model of the Viper regarding sustained turn rate is quite off currently even referencing EDs own white paper. Somebody did a absolute awesome job testing the flight models and creating EM diagrams for most of the models we have now, you can see the actual performance there. I'll also add EDs own white paper so you can see the difference.
Link:
Subsonic Energy Maneuverability Diagrams For DCS https://www.scribd.com/document/657150462/Subsonic-Energy-Maneuverability-Diagrams-for-DC

DCS F-16C Viper Sustained turn rate.pdf 256.83 kB · 4 downloads

This is not a good comparison. Those Contact Light's charts are from September 2022. There's also a weight difference of 5000 lbs between the ED reference and CL's charts. While weight might have a linear effect, the FM changes done in the last 15 months do not.

For newer in-game data, check out DCS Dogfighters Discord, as that's where CL has published his charts.

After some research you might find it harder to say pure rate numbers are "quite off" for the Viper. By "pure rate numbers" I mean STR/ITR, not other aspects such as FLCS behaviour, G onset etc.

[darkman222]

The F16 is the best jet to learn proper BFM and the worst jet for quick success. If you dont absoultely know what youre doing against an F18 or M2K youll lose. 2 circle fights are more demanding.

Things might change with the revised G effects, so the F16 can stay in the best performance evelope. We'll see, but again, of course only if you know what you're doing.

F18 dudes use exploits with the paddle. Maybe they'll get stuck ailerons in the future according to Wags. And the M2K has been revamped, has a nuclear power plant or maybe less drag. Don't know what they changed, you cant run it out of energy with an F16 any more. Not even on the deck.

Maybe try to practice against another F16 first, so you can compare your skill and BFM understanding. Try dissimilar opponents later.

Edited December 14, 2023 by darkman222

[Glide]

I would also recommend not practicing in a simple 1v1 mission because it's just no fun and leads to frustration.  I find it's best to create a 6v6 guns only mission where the red and blue forces come together in a fur ball.  This will give you more practice choosing the right targets and entering and exiting the merge.  It's a lot more fun.

[Theodore42]

I started recording my dogfights and saying the BFM that I was doing so I could remember what I was thinking when I played them back. I thought the videos were cool so I uploaded them to youTube and they were kinda popular. But I stopped narrating because as my skill improved there was just too much for me to think about and also speak at the same time. I tried uploading the dogfights to music but that just isn't as popular.

So here is a new form of video, I pretty much analyze everything I'm thinking about. It's my first attempt but it's --MOSTLY coherent. (!)

 

[darkman222]

How old is that video? Was it brefore the M2K got revamped with the new thrust model?

Honestly, what is that M2K doing at 2:50? If he did not jink like right and left, but only pulled in one direction, you would have overshot. It has a much smaller turn radius than the F16. Was he human or AI?

Nice lecture part though

Go on doing educational videos. Especially BFM videos are rare!

 

 

Edited January 7 by darkman222

[skywalker22]

8 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Honestly, what is that M2K doing at 2:50?

Thats how AI is flying atm with many different planes.

[Theodore42]

On 1/7/2024 at 12:49 PM, darkman222 said:

How old is that video? Was it brefore the M2K got revamped with the new thrust model?

Honestly, what is that M2K doing at 2:50? If he did not jink like right and left, but only pulled in one direction, you would have overshot. It has a much smaller turn radius than the F16. Was he human or AI?

Nice lecture part though

Go on doing educational videos. Especially BFM videos are rare!

The dogfight was recorded on December 14 on the open beta build so I think it is the current M2000.

This is the ace AI, so it flies extremely efficiently but doesn't take into account the advantages of the specific matchup, although it does choose 1 circle vs 2 circle based on the matchup well.

Players aren't going to fly quite as efficiently, but even inexperienced (bad) players are going to dodge bullets if they've ever seen someone line up a tracking shot behind them and gotten splattered. And there's a good chance players will dodge snap shots as well. Generally, a thrust to weight ratio fighter is going to be stuck seeking guns solutions in the form of snapshots.

To maximize the kill chance for snapshots vs a player, get them as low on energy as possible and then set up a snapshot at about the range I made the kill in the video (imo atm). Any closer and it gets hard to roll the crosshairs over the target. (The M2000 is half the size of an F-14 so it's a lot closer than it looks.)

If a player target is far enough away, and low enough on energy, anticipate that they will jink at the snapshot and be ready for it. Winning the snapshot becomes more of a question of how good you are at mechanics in FPSs or MOBAs rather than how well you understand BFM (How good your reactions are). But the timing leading up the moment of the snapshot requires good BFM.

On 1/7/2024 at 12:49 PM, darkman222 said:

Honestly, what is that M2K doing at 2:50? If he did not jink like right and left, but only pulled in one direction, you would have overshot. It has a much smaller turn radius than the F16. Was he human or AI?

From Shaw, Tactics and Maneuvering, paraphrasing from p67-71 [Lag Pursuit Roll]: Use a barrel roll to move from lead pursuit to lag pursuit to prevent an overshoot. [Lag Displacement Roll]: Use a barrel roll to move from lead pursuit to lag pursuit to increase distance. In the video I use the terms a little arbitrarily, and the distinction is kinda arbitrary anyway, but these are some of the most powerful maneuvers you can use in an F-16. Shaw is published by the Navy so it's free to download, or you can buy a hard copy on Amazon, or wherever.

The M2000 can't use its turn radius to defeat an F-16 because that blows all the M2000's energy and it takes a lot more time to get that energy back than the Viper. At that range I wasn't risking an overshoot, I would have done a lag pursuit roll and been fine. The ace AI knows that and doesn't try. It is always efficient. Here is what would have happened:

When I noticed the M2000 blowing his energy on a turn, I would have mirrored his turn to zero out the Heading Course Angle. Then I would have pitched up and done a barrel roll over him. I would end the roll on the far side of him in lag pursuit. This adds a lot of distance to your flight path and keeps you behind the target, which is going really slow and has no energy. The Viper can add energy much easier, but doesn't have to in that situation, because the Viper still has all the speed it needs vs a target that has just blown all his.

The right and left switching is the AI trying to make a one circle fight. Another way to think of it is that he is trying to create flight path separation. The AI did this maneuver against me successfully at 1:11 in the video. You can see him move away from me and then back, creating enough flight path separation for the rolling scissors, neutralizing my advantage. In other words, he put himself onto my turn circle, even though I was behind him, and won by converting my tail chase into a one circle fight. I went out of plane, so it became a rolling scissors rather than a flat scissors, which is the correct counter for the F-16, but he still neutralized my position.

IMO the really doom part of the video is at about 2:25 when I'm too close to him and we're doing those barrel rolls around each other. ANY player, no matter how bad, would have made a MESS of that, and ANY player would have a shot at winning there.

The MAIN WEAKNESS of the AI is that is completely lacks aggression. At 2:25 it looks really cool for a YouTube video, but the target is really just dancing with me. A player that close would have thought KILL KILL KILL and done something crazy agro.

The AI in DCS is great for studying the philosophy of BFM but the AI will never get a sudden KILL insight. Bad players do all the time, and it often works, even at the worst times.

!!! DISCLAMER: This is only what I think is right at the moment. I learn by reading Shaw, imitating what I read in DCS, reading Shaw again and probably picking up only ONE thing, going back to DCS and doing and UNDERSTANDING that ONE thing; and then repeat.