correct as-is F-16 performance in dogfight

[RyanR]

21 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Thats what my video should illustrate. You need to use the 21 degrees per second under 9G at certain points in the engagement for a certain amount of time. Which was a maximum of 13 seconds in the test I did. Just to compare it to the requested minimum of 15 seconds 9G tolerance for the DCS pilot which make total sense in watching my engagement flown with G effects off. This is even more important against an F18 that you cant outrate. When people talk about dogfight performance its just not only sustained turnrate that counts. I am pretty sure the OP is also happy if someone tells him not to just lock the stick at max sustained turn rate and wait.

 

 

How do you measure/approximate degrees per second in the cockpit?

I recently got into DCS, and it's amazing how different "dogfighting" is with modern jets from the prop sims I'd been into for decades. Even early jets play more like the old "rules". I was only going to go as far as the F-86 in DCS.... but my favorite jet since I was a kid is the F-16 (I was hooked on Falcon in 1988)..... and I couldn't stay away.

Thanks!

-Ryan

 

 

 

 

 

[darkman222]

1 hour ago, RyanR said:

How do you measure/approximate degrees per second in the cockpit?

You can measure it in Tacview or try the "SustainedTurnRateMissionF16.miz". I uploaded it. Unfortunately the refresh rate is not  too good, but it gives you a clue in the cockpit.

As @MTM was very thankful in a PM about my track file dogfighting the Mig29 with 3000 lbs of fuel by not stubbornly trying to outrate it, using bursts of the full 9G and 21 degrees per second capability instead, I feel that it is necessary to answer these questions about out rating an opponent also with the advice that out rating is not the solution for all of the engagements you'll end up in the F16. In fact it mostly is not.

That encouraged me to try the initial setup with 7000 lbs of fuel @MTM requested. Although it is not possible to outrate the Mig 29 you can defeat it with by bringing a lot of speed into the merge. Again, whats needed is the capability of the DCS pilot to sustain 9G for around 15 seconds. I was using 8+ G for 13 seconds and for 17 seconds in that engagement. And ended up in his control zone. Even with 7000 lbs of fuel. (track attached)

So please ED @BIGNEWY. As even your demo for the sustained turn rate was with g effects off : Do us and yourself a favor and consider to adjust the G tolerance of the DCS pilot for the F16 soon. It makes it much easier in these arguments about the DCS F16 "performance in dogfights" if not only the F16 performance is correct as is, but also the performance of the DCS pilot meets real world requirements.

SustainedTurnRateMissionF16.miz Mig 29 vs F16 7000 lbs fuel no sustained turning with no g modelling.trk

Edited March 19 by darkman222

[BIGNEWY]

18 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

You can measure it in Tacview or try the "SustainedTurnRateMissionF16.miz". I uploaded it. Unfortunately the refresh rate is not  too good, but it gives you a clue in the cockpit.

As @MTM was very thankful in a PM about my track file dogfighting the Mig29 with 3000 lbs of fuel by not stubbornly trying to outrate it, using bursts of the full 9G and 21 degrees per second capability instead, I feel that it is necessary to answer these questions about out rating an opponent also with the advice that out rating is not the solution for all of the engagements you'll end up in the F16. In fact it mostly is not.

That encouraged me to try the initial setup with 7000 lbs of fuel @MTM requested. Although it is not possible to outrate the Mig 29 you can defeat it with by bringing a lot of speed into the merge. Again, whats needed is the capability of the DCS pilot to sustain 9G for around 15 seconds. I was using 8+ G for 13 seconds and for 17 seconds in that engagement. And ended up in his control zone. Even with 7000 lbs of fuel. (track attached)

So please ED @BIGNEWY. As even your demo for the sustained turn rate was with g effects off : Do us and yourself a favor and consider to adjust the G tolerance of the DCS pilot for the F16 soon. It makes it much easier in these arguments about the DCS F16 "performance in dogfights" if not only the F16 performance is correct as is, but also the performance of the DCS pilot meets real world requirements.

SustainedTurnRateMissionF16.miz 84.23 kB · 0 downloads Mig 29 vs F16 7000 lbs fuel no sustained turning with no g modelling.trk 3.02 MB · 0 downloads

 

There is nothing to change regarding sustained turn rate it is correct. 

G modelling is another topic and we have already said it will be improved. The team are currently testing it internally. 

thank you 

 

[darkman222]

Good to hear the g modelling is being adressed and already in testing phase.

What I wanted to illustrate above was not for questioning the sustained or the instantaneous turn rate of the DCS F16. This track file should bring to the attention to people starting to fly the F16, wondering about why outrating an opponent by using sustained turn rate only, does not work, that there are other options too.

Because mostly they dont do anything wrong, besides not noticing that they simply wont be able to out rate their opponent considering their jet configuration / weight.

Edited March 19 by darkman222

[RyanR]

21 hours ago, darkman222 said:

You can measure it in Tacview or try the "SustainedTurnRateMissionF16.miz". I uploaded it. Unfortunately the refresh rate is not  too good, but it gives you a clue in the cockpit.

As @MTM was very thankful in a PM about my track file dogfighting the Mig29 with 3000 lbs of fuel by not stubbornly trying to outrate it, using bursts of the full 9G and 21 degrees per second capability instead, I feel that it is necessary to answer these questions about out rating an opponent also with the advice that out rating is not the solution for all of the engagements you'll end up in the F16. In fact it mostly is not.

 

 

Thanks a bunch! Gotta check these out when I get some time.

Thinking about it, sustained turn rate has probably rarely been used in the history of air combat. You're always trading energy for angle eventually.

I have lots to learn with the F-16!

Thanks again!

-Ryan

 

 

 

[Scendore]

It is a very interesting video that talks about the turn rate of the F-16.  

 

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

We should keep in mind that while it's still near the top of the food chain, the version of the Viper that we have isn't the one that earned its reputation as king of dogfighters. That honor belongs to the F-16A, which was much lighter, and hence turned a lot better, on top of being made in the 70s, when most fighters that can compete with it now didn't yet exist. The situation had changed since then, and while newer Vipers had improved, against newer opponents they really have to work for their kills.

[Exorcet]

5 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The situation had changed since then, and while newer Vipers had improved, against newer opponents they really have to work for their kills.

Going only by the video posted above, at sea level and clean, the F-16 should at least equal to the DCS aircraft currently ahead of it. What you say is true about A, though the C is no slouch and does have more thrust. In fact as far as I know, I think the Blk 30 C's are generally considered the best anecdotally.

[Glide]

You didn't out rate that Mig-29; he came to you.  That video reflects my experiences as well.  The Viper can't catch the Mig-29 ai's.  You can turn inside them, but you bleed energy too quickly to keep up. 

[darkman222]

19 hours ago, Scendore said:

It is a very interesting video that talks about the turn rate of the F-16.  

Yes and here comes all the misconception from. Staying at the "low" 18 degrees per second is only if you are one of the dudes who think if you fly the perfect speed on a horizontal plane of motion, then you'll win with your "not" rate king F16.

If youre already on the deck, sure, youre out of options. Or at least you have less.

If you want, you can replay my track file against the mig 29 and watch in Tacview for how long and when I hit 21 degrees per second. Spoiler: Its when I dump the nose below the horizon and pull 9G. And luckily my pilot does not black out because g effects is off. So I have the 21 degrees for as long and when I needed them.

I would wish someone came up with a unclassified document that the FM of the DCS F16 is wrong and a sustainable 18 deg/sec is too little ( drag?). But until then we have to work with what we have. So forget about winning a fight by sticking to 450 kts and wait until you win a medal.

 

Edited March 22 by darkman222

[BIGNEWY]

1 hour ago, darkman222 said:

I would wish someone came up with a unclassified document that the FM of the DCS F16 is wrong and a sustainable 18 deg/sec is too little ( drag?). But until then we have to work with what we have. So forget about winning a fight by sticking to 450 kts and wait until you win a medal.

We do not agree with you, block 50 EM's which are in the public domain closely match in game. 

thank you 

[Scendore]

1 hour ago, darkman222 said:

Yes and here comes all the misconception from. Staying at the "low" 18 degrees per second is only if you are one of the dudes who think if you fly the perfect speed on a horizontal plane of motion, then you'll win with your "not" rate king F16.

If youre already on the deck, sure, youre out of options. Or at least you have less.

If you want, you can replay my track file against the mig 29 and watch in Tacview for how long and when I hit 21 degrees per second. Spoiler: Its when I dump the nose below the horizon and pull 9G. And luckily my pilot does not black out because g effects is off. So I have the 21 degrees for as long and when I needed them.

I would wish someone came up with a unclassified document that the FM of the DCS F16 is wrong and a sustainable 18 deg/sec is too little ( drag?). But until then we have to work with what we have. So forget about winning a fight by sticking to 450 kts and wait until you win a medal.

 

 

You are correct if you want to get the best rate out of the F-16 you need a slightly low nose attitude.  And yes G onset is a different discussion.  

[darkman222]

Yes. I am not doubting how the DCS F16 is modelled with the currently available data. I was saying unless, if not out of a sudden contrary evidence pops up, which is unlikely, we need to work with what we have.

Thats the whole point of what I try to contribute here is how to get the 21 deg/sec out of the current F16 FM. Trying to point people struggling in the DCS F16 to look into other factors they need to consider other than flying 450 kts circles and wondering why they cant win a dogfight that way.

Edited March 22 by darkman222

[HWasp]

17 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Yes. I am not doubting how the DCS F16 is modelled with the currently available data. I was saying unless, if not out of a sudden contrary evidence pops up, which is unlikely, we need to work with what we have.

Thats the whole point of what I try to contribute here is how to get the 21 deg/sec out of the current F16 FM. Trying to point people struggling in the DCS F16 to look into other factors they need to consider other than flying 450 kts circles and wondering why they cant win a dogfight that way.

 

I think the F-16 is correct as is, it matches public data, it's been reviewed multiple times.

IF relative performance of the modules is not accurate, I would be more suspicious about some of the other modules, where there is no public data available...

[MTM]

I thought I’d share some thoughts, observations, and progress I’ve made over the past week. With the suggestions from Bignewy, darkman222, and other advice posted through this discussion, I’m having a lot more success killing those pesky Fulcrums! 
 

My first mistake was thinking “winning” meant getting on the fulcrum’s 6 for a low aspect gun kill. After trying it this way countless times, it’s just NOT a good approach against the Fulcrum. It takes WAY too long if you can get there at all. Go for the higher aspect snap-shot kill instead. 
 

Another important lesson… there’s sustained turns and there’s “almost” sustained turns. Over and over, I’ll do a max sustained turn at about 440 knots and I’m just not out turning the fulcrum. BUT, if I start the turn at 465 and slightly nose-down, and then I pull VERY SLIGHTLY into a decelerating turn, I’m usually nose-on the fulcrum by the time my speed gets to 430. 
 

Another problem against the Fulcrum… he goes high and I can’t climb with him. I’ll get so very close to the gun reticle reaching him but now I’m so slow I can’t maneuver that last little bit, and he gets away. No worries… the solution is to wait just a moment when the Fulcrum starts his climb. Just give it 2-3 seconds of acceleration before you go after him. I usually like to start my climb at 500 knots or higher. When he’s high and slow, you’ll be faster and still have speed to maneuver to get the gun kill. And if he drops his nose to accelerate before you get there, no problem. Rinse and repeat until you’ve got him. 
 

Last thought… instinctively I want to take full internal tanks into the dogfight. I figure winning the dogfight is pointless if you flame out on the way home. But really, technique is everything in the viper (unlike the hornet which is very forgiving). With the right BFM techniques, you can take 4,500 lbs into the merge and be on your way home with plenty of gas to spare. Or you can take 7,000 lbs and flameout because the dogfight stayed neutral for 5 minutes. 

[darkman222]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:24 PM, HWasp said:

I would be more suspicious about some of the other modules, where there is no public data available...

Which ones are you referring to? I thought ED models only things that data can be publicly accessed.

[BIGNEWY]

folks please keep the topic here about the F-16 

As always if you have evidence that something is wrong, you have track replays examples and evidence please make a new thread

thank you 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:24 PM, HWasp said:

IF relative performance of the modules is not accurate, I would be more suspicious about some of the other modules

It also depends on which margins of error are acceptable when developing and finetuning a flight model. If for example a 10% margin from publicly available date in any part of the flight regime is deemed acceptable for any module, that could mean there is an up to 20% difference in any part of the flight envelope when comparing say gunzo-performance.
What is an acceptable margin? 5%? 3%?

[HWasp]

15 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Which ones are you referring to? I thought ED models only things that data can be publicly accessed.

There are 3 modern fighters in DCS World (that I know of), where no public EM diagram or similiar solid performance data is available. I didn't want to start a discussion about them, since this is the F-16 thread, but it's easy to find out which ones I'm talking about.

[plaiskool]

Let's be clear and talk facts.
Don't compare real aircraft to DCS aircraft, i know that real life the viper is considered as a good dogfighter, but, if in DCS you want results in dogfight, just don't take the viper period.
Nice in BVR but in BFM arena, if you fight in the viper Vs some Middle+/high level guys in other jets....nope!

Edited April 10 by plaiskool

[BIGNEWY]

5 minutes ago, plaiskool said:

Let's be clear and talk facts.
Don't compare real aircraft to DCS aircraft, i know that real life the viper is considered as a good dogfighter, but, if in DCS you want results in dogfight, just don't take the viper period.
Nice in BVR but in BFM arena, if you fight in the viper Vs some Middle+/high level guys in other jets....nope!

 

That is your opinion, and that is fine. But plenty out there who have mastered it, the pilot can make all the difference in some cases. 

[Stackhouse]

39 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

That is your opinion, and that is fine. But plenty out there who have mastered it, the pilot can make all the difference in some cases. 

To be fair @BIGNEWY @plaiskool is one of the few people who have mastered BFM. When it comes to competitive BFM on DCS he is one of the highest ranked competitors that there have ever been.

 

DCS itself is a small community but the competitive BFM community within DCS is even smaller so everyone worth their salt kind of knows each other. There are definitely certain aspects that the pilot can influence but past a certain skill level (including the one that PS is within) the differences between pilot capabilities are so marginal that aircraft performance differences make up a far greater differential than will meaningfully come out between different pilots alone. 

For example if I fought Plaiskool 18 v 18 it would be good competitive fights nearly every merge. If he took an 18 and I took a 16 it would be an absolute route, I'd have literally no chance in the typical competitive BFM configurations. Maybe I'd win 1 out of 35 or 40 merges at best. 

 

With that said I'm sure there are individuals who may read this at some point and think 'who is this guy he's full of crap!' and I respect that worldview. For any F16 lovers out there who believe I am full of it I welcome any challenge from any individuals to prove that the F16 is a formidable aircraft in a competitive 1v1 guns only merge. You can find us at:

 

Discord.gg/Dogfighters

Edited April 10 by Stackhouse

[BIGNEWY]

We are always happy to look at track replays and if anyone has any evidence something is wrong we will always take a look at it. 

With that said I would suggest waiting for the next patch planned for today, G changes have been made, it will be important to warm up for high G to get the most out of it, so bear that in mind. 

4 to 5 G for 90 degrees and then 4 to 5 G for 90 degrees in the other direction, if this is done blackout takes a lot longer, I think most will find this helpful. 

thank you 

[Keith Briscoe]

I'm not gonna tell my dogfighting friend / opponent I saw this!!!

 

[BIGNEWY]

32 minutes ago, Keith Briscoe said:

I'm not gonna tell my dogfighting friend / opponent I saw this!!!

 

it will be in the patch note