TWS - Phoenix - Reaquiring

[Moose_Jaw]

Hi gents,

hope I am posting in the right forum.

My RIO and myself got following issue:

We launched on 2 Su33 coming at us head on and launched 2 AIM54 MK60 C on about 50 nm in TWS. However we suddenly lost the tracks for a sec and when we regained it the two Su33 appeared as new tracks and the Phoenix were trashed. Is there any way to place the re-aquired on the old tracks and safe the phoenix? We also tested this with Jester only, same story.

Cheers,

 

Moose

[KoN]

I've been flying the F14 this week I've had this from preorder  many years ago .The Phoenix would track its way to targets and score 80% but This week I've noticed as soon as I fire Phoenix jester looses track and can't regain it back .

Nearly all Phoenix are missing targets Now this could be that they are evading very early on and getting into the weeds or maybe something is broken with jester and targeting after a patch . 

I'm hoping Heatblur keeps on top of the F14 with bug fixes . 

Any ideas . 

Edited December 14, 2023 by KoN

[draconus]

Without tracks or tacview files we can only guess - so I'll say the separation was probably not enough for the AWG-9 to properly distinguish the targets apart at some moment or their maneuvering caused the track loss. In this case the C version of the missile can reacquire the target when it will go active later on, if it can find the target - very low probability and you can't do anything about it.

It's best to use STT against fighter groups.

[RustBelt]

At 50 NM you tried to TWS multi-shot Head on fighters? STT one Phoenix, in formation they can't tell who you're shooting at and both should be running defensive as soon as you light them up. TWS isn't Ninja stealth missile shots. You're throwing away missiles. 

[Hobel]

Am 13.12.2023 um 13:15 schrieb Moose_Jaw:

Hi gents,

hope I am posting in the right forum.

My RIO and myself got following issue:

We launched on 2 Su33 coming at us head on and launched 2 AIM54 MK60 C on about 50 nm in TWS. However we suddenly lost the tracks for a sec and when we regained it the two Su33 appeared as new tracks and the Phoenix were trashed. Is there any way to place the re-aquired on the old tracks and safe the phoenix? We also tested this with Jester only, same story.

Cheers,

 

Moose

I'm still quite new to the F14, but shouldn't tracks that are only lost for a very short time go into a kind of "MEM" mode until the target is found again?

well until then try to switch off the MLC filter after firing the missiles, the radar is then difficult to notch, especially against targets that are quite high.

[draconus]

6 hours ago, Hobel said:

I'm still quite new to the F14, but shouldn't tracks that are only lost for a very short time go into a kind of "MEM" mode until the target is found again?

well until then try to switch off the MLC filter after firing the missiles, the radar is then difficult to notch, especially against targets that are quite high.

If track is lost there is no way for the system to correlate it back to the same one. TWS tracks are already kind of "mem mode" but the track is dropped if there's no return found where one was expected. [Manual: "Normally targets on the TID in TWS mode are retained 14 seconds after last observation."]

MLC filter is automatically off when radar elevation is above +3°.

[MBot]

Tracks on which a Phoenix is being guided should be held and extrapolated even when they are "lost". The sole purpose of this functionality can only be that a Phoenix is supposed to keep guiding on the extrapolated track. If the real target happens to remain adjecent to the "ghost track" it should still be hit.  I don't think this is working in DCS though. When a track is lost the Phoenix (A) is gone.

Edited December 18, 2023 by MBot

[KoN]

Seen way too many phoenix hitting nothing but the ground on the 80s server not just by me but other F14 flying the server  .

What is the job of the RIO .

RWS.

TWS.

LOCK.

FIRE .

MAINTAIN LOCK .

Edited December 18, 2023 by KoN

[MBot]

7 minutes ago, KoN said:

Seen way too many phoenix hitting nothing but the ground on the 80s server not just by me but other F14 flying the server  .

What is the job of the RIO .

RWS.

TWS.

LOCK.

FIRE .

MAINTAIN LOCK .

 

Maintining a lock/track is the job of the AWG-9 and the pilot (by remaining within the limits). There is nothing the RIO can do about that.

[Hobel]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb draconus:

MLC filter is automatically off when radar elevation is above +3°.

That's why I switch it off manually from time to time when a target is below me, so I can hold the lock much better 

[Katsu]

I believe that reacquiring a target on a lost track never worked on the DCS F-14, at least I don't remember it working.

If you have a Phoenix C maybe it will find a target with the self pitbull activation, If it's a Phoenix A, you're guaranteed to miss the shot because the radar can never reconstruct the track even for a few milliseconds I've experienced this situation dozens or even hundreds of times firing even at targets coming in hot.

The FCS seems to have problems distinguishing targets flying in formation (sometimes not even that close) and keeps breaking the track.

I don't know if this is a feature or a bug 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Katsu

[RustBelt]

It’s a 1960’s computer. You want to absolutely positively hit a target; STT. Especially in an AirQuake environment, the AWG-9 is going to lose its mind trying to manage TWS. 
 

AWG-9 TWS was primarily a Marketing, Development, and Situational Awareness feature, NOT a reliable method of attacking anything other than drone targets and Hail Marry fleet defense SHF events.

 

The FEAR of a TWS ninja attack made the Tomcat formidable. If you heard an AWG-9 on your RWR you knew you COULD get a Phoenix to the face with less than 60seconds warning. And you also knew if they did LOCK you. You WERE getting a Phoenix or a Sparrow guaranteed, because for the time the AWG-9 was a hell of a good automatic STT beast. 
 

Heck the USN only EVER made kills in STT. And never did with a Phoenix STT or TWS.

[Sideburns]

1 hour ago, RustBelt said:

It’s a 1960’s computer. You want to absolutely positively hit a target; STT. Especially in an AirQuake environment, the AWG-9 is going to lose its mind trying to manage TWS. 
 

AWG-9 TWS was primarily a Marketing, Development, and Situational Awareness feature, NOT a reliable method of attacking anything other than drone targets and Hail Marry fleet defense SHF events.

 

The FEAR of a TWS ninja attack made the Tomcat formidable. If you heard an AWG-9 on your RWR you knew you COULD get a Phoenix to the face with less than 60seconds warning. And you also knew if they did LOCK you. You WERE getting a Phoenix or a Sparrow guaranteed, because for the time the AWG-9 was a hell of a good automatic STT beast. 
 

Heck the USN only EVER made kills in STT. And never did with a Phoenix STT or TWS.

This, the F14A/B had among the first uses of microprocessors in a fighter jet, the doppler bins were handled in analogue electronics! It's a miracle it even manages TWS as well as datalink.

The AWG9 TWS is going to suffer trying to track/correlate a manoeuvring target, as well as any lag (thankfully dramatic changes of position and vector seem to be minimised in this patch), but as a bonus you get a more efficient trajectory from the Phoenix when in STT.

[KoN]

On 12/18/2023 at 1:18 PM, MBot said:

Maintining a lock/track is the job of the AWG-9 and the pilot (by remaining within the limits). There is nothing the RIO can do about that.

Just looses lock all the time , is what I'm finding, but this is in multiplayer. PvP.

 

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, KoN said:

Just looses lock all the time , is what I'm finding, but this is in multiplayer. PvP.

 

Your losing lock in STT all the time? Just for clarification, there is no lock in TWS. Do you mean you keep losing TWS tracks, or PDSTT or PSTT locks?

[RustBelt]

4 hours ago, KoN said:

......but this is in multiplayer. PvP.

 

Air Quake.

[draconus]

On 12/18/2023 at 3:43 PM, Katsu said:

The FCS seems to have problems distinguishing targets flying in formation (sometimes not even that close) and keeps breaking the track.

I don't know if this is a feature or a bug

Feature - all radars have limitations of resolution at range.

[ShinyMikey]

On 12/18/2023 at 9:44 AM, RustBelt said:

At 50 NM you tried to TWS multi-shot Head on fighters? STT one Phoenix, in formation they can't tell who you're shooting at and both should be running defensive as soon as you light them up. TWS isn't Ninja stealth missile shots. You're throwing away missiles. 

I disagree with this advice...I pretty much never hard lock a target beyond 20nm and certainly never beyond 25-30nm. A 50nm head on shot is exactly when you would fire in TWS, especially if they are high and fast and your aircraft is at 30k+. If you know there are two fighters but the second track has not broken out clearly, then fire on the one solid track that you have and ease into an offset. When the first missile goes active and that guy defends that will break out both aircraft clearly. If you do drop the track shortly before pitbull, then the AIM-54C still has a good chance to acquire the target if he hasn't actually maneuvered much. Whether the first missile hits or not, at least one of the bandits will be defensive. I would save the STT locks for inside 20nm, better yet a sub 10nm ACM cover up shot.  See some examples in my videos:

 

 

[Moose_Jaw]

Thanks chaps for helping us out on this issue!

Your information are helping me and my RIO.

 

 

[KoN]

22 hours ago, IronMike said:

Your losing lock in STT all the time? Just for clarification, there is no lock in TWS. Do you mean you keep losing TWS tracks, or PDSTT or PSTT locks?

TWS is jester gathering info and putting them into fire mission . I believe I can fire while in TWS . However I use STT lock on single targets under 50nm. But there are cases he won't lock targets that are right in front of me can even see the black blob. Also will loose lock yet still tracking in TV. 

Jester needs an up date . Some strange call outs and very slow reacting. 

Lock a friendly and you won't know until either you fired or wait a few minutes then he will say that's a buddy. 

This is all multiplayer. Maybe jester can't handle too much going on . As some one has pointed out. 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by KoN

[draconus]

8 hours ago, KoN said:

But there are cases he won't lock targets that are right in front of me can even see the black blob. Also will loose lock yet still tracking in TV.

• Make sure the radar is active/on.
• Make sure you know the distiction between DL and radar tracks.
• The radar may be in mode that won't allow the locking of distant target (ex. ACM modes).
• The radar cone may be scanning different part of the sky - the bandit can't be locked then.
• The target may be filtered out by either doppler or main lobe clutter filters.
• The radar limitations won't apply to TV sensor thus it's normal for the TV to still track while the radar lost the lock.

Know the limitations of the systems and Jester and you'll be fine. Otherwise report any bugs with tracks and videos instead of empty statements, please.

[KoN]

Target is 12 o'clock, stt enemy ahead can't do that . I will go into Ptt mode and scan ahead . By that time enemy has lock on me . 

Don't worry I'll wait for update. Thanks for  replying. 

[Hobel]

Am 20.12.2023 um 02:10 schrieb KoN:

Just looses lock all the time , is what I'm finding, but this is in multiplayer. PvP.

Turn off MLC, see results.

 

Example:

 

https://streamable.com/f6r1fz

[draconus]

6 hours ago, KoN said:

Target is 12 o'clock, stt enemy ahead can't do that . I will go into Ptt mode and scan ahead . By that time enemy has lock on me . 

Don't worry I'll wait for update. Thanks for  replying. 

Use "target ahead" instead. "Enemy ahead" needs confirmed enemy designation. Radar limitations still apply.

Apart from ECM you can't prevent enemy from locking you.

There won't be any updates for things that work correctly.

What is Ptt mode anyway?

Edited December 22, 2023 by draconus

[unknown76]

Am 22.12.2023 um 02:09 schrieb KoN:

Target is 12 o'clock, stt enemy ahead can't do that . I will go into Ptt mode and scan ahead . By that time enemy has lock on me . 

Don't worry I'll wait for update. Thanks for  replying. 

If you choose "choose specific target" you can also force Chester to STT lock data link targets (if Chester is able to align the the AWG-9 to that targets).