Community A-4E-C Handling

[Grubby]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, but the forum for this is locked so I am not sure where to ask.

My question is is something wrong with the flight model of this mod? It's about the worst handling plane I've flown in the game. I can't imagine it was ever this bad in real life. I mean you touch the stick and it just barrel rolls. Pull up the nose and it tries to flip itself over and smash into the ground. It is honestly atrocious. 

Is their some way to fix this, or is this just an old mod with an outdated flight model?

[Rudel_chw]

18 minutes ago, Grubby said:

...  is something wrong with the flight model of this mod? It's about the worst handling plane I've flown in the game. I can't imagine it was ever this bad in real life. I mean you touch the stick and it just barrel rolls. Pull up the nose and it tries to flip itself over and smash into the ground. It is honestly atrocious. 

...  is this just an old mod with an outdated flight model?

 

I wonder in what way are you flying the A-4 to gather that impression of it?   Here you can see how it behaves on a disimilar air combat, in the hands of an experienced pilot:

 

 

I don't find it "atrocious" to be frank.

[Johnny Dioxin]

Sounds to me like your stick is over-sensitive and maybe you aren't being as careful with it as you maybe should in that situation?

Try adjusting your profile for the stick in the controller axes section - less saturation and maybe a curve might not be a bad idea. Might like to just try the response curve first and see how you go.

[diego999]

No problems for me. 

It's an older plane from a time before fly-by-wire, so if you're used to newer stuff that flies straight like the Hornet or the Viper, you'll have a hard time at first.

It has an amazing roll rate, as the real plane was like that. Limit the roll axis to 50-60%. You can also add a 20% curve to make it behave in a more predictable way.

 

[Art-J]

By the way, thread for this mod is not locked, so go ahead and post there if you have other questions:

 

[Boomhauer440]

On 1/24/2024 at 2:27 PM, Grubby said:

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, but the forum for this is locked so I am not sure where to ask.

My question is is something wrong with the flight model of this mod? It's about the worst handling plane I've flown in the game. I can't imagine it was ever this bad in real life. I mean you touch the stick and it just barrel rolls. Pull up the nose and it tries to flip itself over and smash into the ground. It is honestly atrocious. 

Is their some way to fix this, or is this just an old mod with an outdated flight model?

The flight model is actually pretty good. The A-4 IRL has an absolutely bonkers roll rate and does have problems with high AOA pitchup. To add a bit of context, its prohibited to use more than 50% Aileron deflection with external fuel.

The big issue is the stick moves in a pretty wide circle, like hard to reach full forward and pressing into your stomach full aft, and hitting your knees before you get to full aileron. That translates into a PC stick with only a couple inches of movement being inherently crazy sensitive. You just touching it is the equivalent of like 6" of movement IRL. 

You'll need to go through some trial and error and set up curves/limits on your stick axes. 

[Richrach]

Grubby, I flew the TA-4J in training with the US Navy.  The flight model is excellent with one exception, landing.  Regarding sensitivity of the flight controls in a sim, the original aircraft had a  roll rate of 720 degrees a second, two complete revolutions in that second.  Full stick deflections were limited to one roll of 360 degrees (one half second) due to the probability of entering a "coupled roll" where the aircraft could become unrecoverable.  It was an insanely responsive platform!

 

Regarding landing, the flight model is terrible.  Response to power to control glideslope is not even close to the real aircraft, or any aircraft I have flown.  Not sure how one would fix this as other sims have gotten it right in the past, most notably Janes F/A-18 from many years ago.

 

A suggestion: Use the axis tuning tools to reduce the sensitivity in the areas you are struggling with.  Here are my settings which may give you a place to start.

 

Pitch - Deadzone = 8 / Saturation X = 100 / Saturation Y = 80 / Curvature = 30

Roll - Deadzone = 8 / Saturation X = 100 / Saturation Y = 70 / Curvature = 35

Elevator trim speed = 33

Aileron trim speed = 33

Rudder trim speed = 50

 

I am constantly trimming throughout a flight, which is/was normal for aircraft of this era.  Modern fly-by-wire lawn darts are junk in my opinion because the pilot does not actually have a feel for what the plane is telling him through its trim.  Trim is the original "force feedback" as it always told you what was happening aerodynamically with the airframe.  Modern jets breed terrible pilots.

 

This jet was a joy to fly, one of the best aircraft I have ever flown.  Responsive, nimble, honest.  A good pilot could spank the crap out of any jet out there in its day, F-4, F-14, F-15, F-16, Mirage, MiG (pick one) in a tight fight.  The combat slats gave it control at low speed that was just amazing.  All it lacked was a solid radar, which is also fairly well represented in the game. The cockpit was so small most pilots had to turn sideways (myself included) to bring the canopy down or it would pinch/catch the sleeves of your flight suit!  It was like putting on a  pair of jeans that are one size too tight.  No kidding, you felt like you were not in a cockpit, but actually part of the plane.  (Real useless trivia, the T-2C "Buckeye" was just the opposite.  You could put three people in each seat in that jet.  It was like sitting in an oversized bathtub.  A jet made for really fat people!)

 

That there is such a high quality model of this aircraft in DCS that is not a paid module is a testament to those like myself who flew this jet and loved it so much.  What a joy it is to fly it again!

 

I hope this helps,

Richrach

Combat Vet: Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Pakistan

Edited March 2, 2024 by Richrach
More detail

[roobarbjapan]

On 3/3/2024 at 12:15 AM, Richrach said:

Grubby, I flew the TA-4J in training with the US Navy.  The flight model is excellent with one exception, landing.  Regarding sensitivity of the flight controls in a sim, the original aircraft had a  roll rate of 720 degrees a second, two complete revolutions in that second.  Full stick deflections were limited to one roll of 360 degrees (one half second) due to the probability of entering a "coupled roll" where the aircraft could become unrecoverable.  It was an insanely responsive platform!

 

Regarding landing, the flight model is terrible.  Response to power to control glideslope is not even close to the real aircraft, or any aircraft I have flown.  Not sure how one would fix this as other sims have gotten it right in the past, most notably Janes F/A-18 from many years ago.

 

A suggestion: Use the axis tuning tools to reduce the sensitivity in the areas you are struggling with.  Here are my settings which may give you a place to start.

 

Pitch - Deadzone = 8 / Saturation X = 100 / Saturation Y = 80 / Curvature = 30

Roll - Deadzone = 8 / Saturation X = 100 / Saturation Y = 70 / Curvature = 35

Elevator trim speed = 33

Aileron trim speed = 33

Rudder trim speed = 50

 

I am constantly trimming throughout a flight, which is/was normal for aircraft of this era.  Modern fly-by-wire lawn darts are junk in my opinion because the pilot does not actually have a feel for what the plane is telling him through its trim.  Trim is the original "force feedback" as it always told you what was happening aerodynamically with the airframe.  Modern jets breed terrible pilots.

 

This jet was a joy to fly, one of the best aircraft I have ever flown.  Responsive, nimble, honest.  A good pilot could spank the crap out of any jet out there in its day, F-4, F-14, F-15, F-16, Mirage, MiG (pick one) in a tight fight.  The combat slats gave it control at low speed that was just amazing.  All it lacked was a solid radar, which is also fairly well represented in the game. The cockpit was so small most pilots had to turn sideways (myself included) to bring the canopy down or it would pinch/catch the sleeves of your flight suit!  It was like putting on a  pair of jeans that are one size too tight.  No kidding, you felt like you were not in a cockpit, but actually part of the plane.  (Real useless trivia, the T-2C "Buckeye" was just the opposite.  You could put three people in each seat in that jet.  It was like sitting in an oversized bathtub.  A jet made for really fat people!)

 

That there is such a high quality model of this aircraft in DCS that is not a paid module is a testament to those like myself who flew this jet and loved it so much.  What a joy it is to fly it again!

 

I hope this helps,

Richrach

Combat Vet: Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Pakistan

 

You should contact the guys who made the A-4 on discord. I think your feed back would be appreciated and maybe they could use you as an sme. 

[Richrach]

Roobarbjapan, I do not know.  Is it worth it?  It does not seem to be an issue for anyone else.  Perhaps it is a Carrier Aviation thing and those who do not fly like they are at the boat could care less.

 

I still fly light civilian planes.  Just as I was taught I fly real approaches with power on and control glideslope as we did at the boat with throttle/power.  It makes total sense to me, but I am only one guy.  How serious do you think they are about the fidelity of the flight model in this one area?  I have to say the rest of the modeling is fantastic, so it is the juice worth the squeeze?

 

Richrach 

[Nocke217]

I'd say give them your seemingly well informed opinion and let them decide if its worth the effort. Maybe there even is an easy fix? They seem to be a really engaged and serious bunch.

[ProtoTypeK7]

I suggest tuning each axis based on each plane/module as needed; for example I think I have A-4 roll axis sitting at deadzone 10, curve 25 and saturation 60. Again this should probably vary by module, I tuned the A-10a for example such that full stick deflection is right at the optimum edge where stall horn begins blaring, imposing a limit on possible movement. The exact amount of tuning will vary by module and what device/hotas you are employing. I (even though right handed) play with mouse in right hand (hand tracking not head tracking), keyboard in middle, and xbox controller in left hand, which winds up in both hands for landing, takeoff, aerial refuling, and using guns or rockets. I do not think there is a single module that does not require some measure of axis tuning, at least for me, so I would suggest sitting down and running through all your modules in free flight and adjusting the tuning until you are happy, all in one sitting, then perhaps saving those as different profiles in a new folder you create.

 

[Richrach]

Nocke, thank you for your kind words.

 

It is not opinion but physics in play here.  Me Mongo.  Mongo not a mart chimp.  But, physics is physics.  Physics no care Mongo mart or dumb.  Even Mongo can figr out things after seeing tens of thousands of times... lots of finger and toe counting!

 

Analog jets, those that had almost no computer enhancement to flight controls other than rudimentary AFCS, are just a different beast in the digital world.  I flew a helicopter in the 80's with and without AFCS and it was astounding the difference.  Different side of the same coin here.  Digital systems and fly-by-wire can be replicated easily on a computer because there is little translation required.  Code is code at the end of the day.  Imitating 3D analog actions in digital format is a real gift.

 

In simple terms, when a Navy jet is trimmed on-speed for approach addition or subtraction to power makes an immediate impact on VSI (vertical speed).  There is zero time lag (other than the spool time of turbofan engines.  Useless trivia: Jets of the A-4's era had much less spool lag, being turbojet engines.  It was still there but much smaller.)  Reduce power plane go down.  Increase power plane go up.

 

There are many videos out there these days of pilots flying at the boat.  Watch the amount of changes and the speed of those changes in throttle position.  Two things to notice.  First, the nose pitch/attitude relative to the horizon, does not change at all.  Second, the pilot is controlling the glide slope entirely with power, not nose.  Watch the stick in those videos.  The pilots almost never make a movement of the stick forward/back, only side to side.  Power = glideslope.  Stick = lineup.

 

This is not the case in the A-4E model.  The first thing to happen in the game is speed changes.  Then the AoA and pitch follow.  VSI lags these responses.  In reality it is just the opposite.  Actually, power changes instantly affect VSI, airspeed follows, slowly.  AOA lags both these.  Its physics.  Lineup, meatball, AoA is how one flies at the boat.  Airspeed is not even in the scan.

 

I confess I have not flown with the APC on in DCS.  In all my time doing what I did I can count the number of times on two hands I have seen that system in use, and only once at the boat.  That approach ended up a waveoff because the APC system did not work as advertised and behind the boat is a really stupid place to experiment.  Modern day Hornet and Growler guys apparently love flying approaches with APC (they did in the baby Hornet in the Airwings I flew in).  Today?  Well, their mileage may vary.  Maybe it works in DCS.  I do not know.

 

I had too few hours in the A-4 in real life.  I wish I had 100 times more.  It was so much fun to fly, even more so now that I am not a youngin' anymore.

 

Good simming!

Richrach

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2024 by Richrach
Grammar errors

[roobarbjapan]

23 hours ago, Richrach said:

Roobarbjapan, I do not know.  Is it worth it?  It does not seem to be an issue for anyone else.  Perhaps it is a Carrier Aviation thing and those who do not fly like they are at the boat could care less.

 

I still fly light civilian planes.  Just as I was taught I fly real approaches with power on and control glideslope as we did at the boat with throttle/power.  It makes total sense to me, but I am only one guy.  How serious do you think they are about the fidelity of the flight model in this one area?  I have to say the rest of the modeling is fantastic, so it is the juice worth the squeeze?

 

Richrach 

It is probably worth a shot. They have essentially set the gold standard in terms of mods and seem to be very serious about making it the best it can be within the limitations of what a mod can achieve. I’m just a sim enthusiast so I am not qualified to comment on realism but I felt it was very hard to handle around the boat. It made me wonder how such an aircraft could be used for carrier quals but after seeing your comments it was nice to see someone shared the opinion. This is not a complaint by any means, the A-4 mod is simply amazing. 

[Richrach]

Roobarbjapan,  where do I find this group online?  I usually stay out of social media and such, so I am not up to speed on Discord.

I spoke to an old friend who also flew the TA-4J in flight school yesterday.  He thought it was great there is a sim out there for the A-4.  If he were not an airline pilot he would probably fly it as well.  His wife was a plane captain in his squadron when they met.  Ah, romance in tactical aviation.

 

Thank you for the encouragement.  Always welcome, always appreciated.

Richrach

[TLTeo]

The link to the Discord server is in the first post of the thread here: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/290302-community-a-4e-c-v22-october-2023/ as well as on the Github repository the thread points to: https://github.com/heclak/community-a4e-c?tab=readme-ov-file

 

You need to create a Discord account to log in on whatever server, but that's it. If you don't want to install the app (I hate apps so I refuse to do so) you can just run it in your browser.

[roobarbjapan]

9 hours ago, Richrach said:

Roobarbjapan,  where do I find this group online?  I usually stay out of social media and such, so I am not up to speed on Discord.

I spoke to an old friend who also flew the TA-4J in flight school yesterday.  He thought it was great there is a sim out there for the A-4.  If he were not an airline pilot he would probably fly it as well.  His wife was a plane captain in his squadron when they met.  Ah, romance in tactical aviation.

 

Thank you for the encouragement.  Always welcome, always appreciated.

Richrach

Thank you again for your comment. As TLTeo mentioned, discord is the place to go. Make an account, follow the link to the A-4 community page and then make a post. It can be a little confusing to use but if you have any problems send me a direct message here and I would be happy to help. 

[VZ_342]

On 1/24/2024 at 1:27 PM, Grubby said:

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post, but the forum for this is locked so I am not sure where to ask.

My question is is something wrong with the flight model of this mod? It's about the worst handling plane I've flown in the game. I can't imagine it was ever this bad in real life. I mean you touch the stick and it just barrel rolls. Pull up the nose and it tries to flip itself over and smash into the ground. It is honestly atrocious. 

Is their some way to fix this, or is this just an old mod with an outdated flight model?

There was an article written by an A-4 pilot who mentioned how sensitive the stick was in creating movement. You definitely have to be gentle with the stick, moreso than other planes. I've also read that most people think of pilots "yanking and banking" the stick, when in fact one needs much more finesse.

[Richrach]

VZ, yes, finesse is the key.  If you watch video of guys landing at the boat, you see them making many, many corrections.  Put a correction in, immediately take it out the opposite direction.  Same with power.  You are trying to move the plane inches, or maybe feet, and that cannot be done ham-fisted.

The first plane I built was very much like that.  VERY responsive.  Some would say "twitchy", but I loved it.  Tiny, tiny corrections, and many of them.

I enjoy the model the guys have put together of the A-4.  It is what I remember except for approaches.  Sim pilots and even actual pilots who have spent their lives in fly-by-wire birds may just not have the knack for it.  We used to mock the F/A-18 guys because it seemed they lost about half their brain cells when they stepped into that community.  All that fancy gizmo stuff at their fingertips and they could not fly precision navigation a fraction as good as the Grumman Ironworks guys (A-6, EA-6, E-2, F-14).  Even in degraded nav we could out-fly them.

Oh, the good old days...

Richrach

[Raisuli]

On 3/2/2024 at 8:15 AM, Richrach said:

Grubby, I flew the TA-4J in training with the US Navy.  The flight model is excellent with one exception, landing.  Regarding sensitivity of the flight controls in a sim, the original aircraft had a  roll rate of 720 degrees a second, two complete revolutions in that second.  Full stick deflections were limited to one roll of 360 degrees (one half second) due to the probability of entering a "coupled roll" where the aircraft could become unrecoverable.  It was an insanely responsive platform!

 

Regarding landing, the flight model is terrible.  Response to power to control glideslope is not even close to the real aircraft, or any aircraft I have flown.  Not sure how one would fix this as other sims have gotten it right in the past, most notably Janes F/A-18 from many years ago.

 

A suggestion: Use the axis tuning tools to reduce the sensitivity in the areas you are struggling with.  Here are my settings which may give you a place to start.

 

Pitch - Deadzone = 8 / Saturation X = 100 / Saturation Y = 80 / Curvature = 30

Roll - Deadzone = 8 / Saturation X = 100 / Saturation Y = 70 / Curvature = 35

Elevator trim speed = 33

Aileron trim speed = 33

Rudder trim speed = 50

 

I am constantly trimming throughout a flight, which is/was normal for aircraft of this era.  Modern fly-by-wire lawn darts are junk in my opinion because the pilot does not actually have a feel for what the plane is telling him through its trim.  Trim is the original "force feedback" as it always told you what was happening aerodynamically with the airframe.  Modern jets breed terrible pilots.

 

This jet was a joy to fly, one of the best aircraft I have ever flown.  Responsive, nimble, honest.  A good pilot could spank the crap out of any jet out there in its day, F-4, F-14, F-15, F-16, Mirage, MiG (pick one) in a tight fight.  The combat slats gave it control at low speed that was just amazing.  All it lacked was a solid radar, which is also fairly well represented in the game. The cockpit was so small most pilots had to turn sideways (myself included) to bring the canopy down or it would pinch/catch the sleeves of your flight suit!  It was like putting on a  pair of jeans that are one size too tight.  No kidding, you felt like you were not in a cockpit, but actually part of the plane.  (Real useless trivia, the T-2C "Buckeye" was just the opposite.  You could put three people in each seat in that jet.  It was like sitting in an oversized bathtub.  A jet made for really fat people!)

 

That there is such a high quality model of this aircraft in DCS that is not a paid module is a testament to those like myself who flew this jet and loved it so much.  What a joy it is to fly it again!

 

I hope this helps,

Richrach

Combat Vet: Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Pakistan

 

Back in the day I was never enamored with the A-4, and we had quite a few flying in and out when I was at Alameda.  Flew it for the first time today on a map with a B-1 poised on the runaway; it goes out and does a loop at 400 knots, then comes back and I'll occasionally fly formation with it just for the practice in everything from the F-5 to the F-18.

Ground handling is tough; not used to differential breaking.  Roll rate makes the F-5 look sluggish.  Responsiveness is awesome.  Had to cut a corner to catch the B-1; fastest I could go was 450, but once I got it reeled in the B-1 never lost me. 

Didn't have any trouble with it getting away from me, but I was more focused on retaining energy than maneuvering so that might change.  I'll keep those setting in my pocket when they come up; right now a 20 curve on roll and pitch keeps me in the air.

Landing was awful; couldn't get the thing to feel right, had to abort one attempt and circle back, ended up flying at the ground, and once down took the whole runway to stop.  Then my ground handling skills put me in the dirt and that was that.

If I get the ground handling down this thing will be an absolute blast to fly!  Need to fix that first, then it's time to learn how to get around in this thing! 

[MAXsenna]

Grubby, I flew the TA-4J in training with the US Navy.  The flight model is excellent with one exception, landing.  Regarding sensitivity of the flight controls in a sim, the original aircraft had a  roll rate of 720 degrees a second, two complete revolutions in that second.  Full stick deflections were limited to one roll of 360 degrees (one half second) due to the probability of entering a "coupled roll" where the aircraft could become unrecoverable.  It was an insanely responsive platform!
 
Regarding landing, the flight model is terrible.  Response to power to control glideslope is not even close to the real aircraft, or any aircraft I have flown.  Not sure how one would fix this as other sims have gotten it right in the past, most notably Janes F/A-18 from many years ago.
 
A suggestion: Use the axis tuning tools to reduce the sensitivity in the areas you are struggling with.  Here are my settings which may give you a place to start.
 
Pitch - Deadzone = 8 / Saturation X = 100 / Saturation Y = 80 / Curvature = 30
Roll - Deadzone = 8 / Saturation X = 100 / Saturation Y = 70 / Curvature = 35
Elevator trim speed = 33
Aileron trim speed = 33
Rudder trim speed = 50
 
I am constantly trimming throughout a flight, which is/was normal for aircraft of this era.  Modern fly-by-wire lawn darts are junk in my opinion because the pilot does not actually have a feel for what the plane is telling him through its trim.  Trim is the original "force feedback" as it always told you what was happening aerodynamically with the airframe.  Modern jets breed terrible pilots.
 
This jet was a joy to fly, one of the best aircraft I have ever flown.  Responsive, nimble, honest.  A good pilot could spank the crap out of any jet out there in its day, F-4, F-14, F-15, F-16, Mirage, MiG (pick one) in a tight fight.  The combat slats gave it control at low speed that was just amazing.  All it lacked was a solid radar, which is also fairly well represented in the game. The cockpit was so small most pilots had to turn sideways (myself included) to bring the canopy down or it would pinch/catch the sleeves of your flight suit!  It was like putting on a  pair of jeans that are one size too tight.  No kidding, you felt like you were not in a cockpit, but actually part of the plane.  (Real useless trivia, the T-2C "Buckeye" was just the opposite.  You could put three people in each seat in that jet.  It was like sitting in an oversized bathtub.  A jet made for really fat people!)
 
That there is such a high quality model of this aircraft in DCS that is not a paid module is a testament to those like myself who flew this jet and loved it so much.  What a joy it is to fly it again!
 
I hope this helps,
Richrach
Combat Vet: Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Pakistan

Thanks for this, but why would you ever use deadzones?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Richrach]

Max, good question, with a good answer.

Did you know some military aircraft actually have "dead zones" in their sticks in the real jet?  Grumman aircraft were known for this, and it was designed into the platforms.

Fly-by-wire-plastic lawn darts (I am thinking the F-16, of which I am not a fanboy) do not.  This is one of the reasons all the real pilots I know and have flown with in Vipers hated flying it in IFR conditions.  One has little, if any, tactile feeling for what the plane is doing.  It certainly is doing things you did not command.  Just watch a video of a Viper taxiing.  The stab is moving all over the place because the computer just cannot leave well enough alone.

Interesting anecdotal tidbits for a Tuesday morning before orange juice.  Have a great day!

Richrach

[MAXsenna]

Max, good question, with a good answer.
Did you know some military aircraft actually have "dead zones" in their sticks in the real jet?  Grumman aircraft were known for this, and it was designed into the platforms.
Fly-by-wire-plastic lawn darts (I am thinking the F-16, of which I am not a fanboy) do not.  This is one of the reasons all the real pilots I know and have flown with in Vipers hated flying it in IFR conditions.  One has little, if any, tactile feeling for what the plane is doing.  It certainly is doing things you did not command.  Just watch a video of a Viper taxiing.  The stab is moving all over the place because the computer just cannot leave well enough alone.
Interesting anecdotal tidbits for a Tuesday morning before orange juice.  Have a great day!
Richrach

Thank you! Same to you!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[SuperTonique]

I've installed the latest version of DCS (2.9).
Since this installation, the quality of the radar screen on the A4E-C (V 2.2) has deteriorated. The echoes presented are no longer fine but are symbolised by coarse green dots whose brightness cannot even be adjusted. Am I the only one with this problem? Today, the Radar is unusable...

[Richrach]

Green?  I have not seen green in the DCS A-4.  The A-6E radar of that era was yellows and oranges, as was its big sister, the EA-6B.

The A-4 radar was not meant for the kind of fine-grain work done by an A-6 BN.  That radar was capable of breaking out a surprising amount of detail in the right hands.  Now days the computer does all the processing.  Back in that period, the BN did the work.  To be honest I have only used the DCS A-4E radar for the rudimentary ground work.  It just was not intended for heavier missions like night precision bombing.  Single seat + head down fiddling with a radar = Dead plane and crew.  That was outside the scope of the plane itself.

Wish I had more to offer.

Edited April 5, 2024 by Richrach
Grammer