Russian dominance in flight sim development

[Feuerfalke]

Well for one thing I think the Russians are serious enough to undertake flight sims since let's face it, us Yanks in the West have been playing with too much 1st person shooter arcade games.

 

Plus from an economic standpoint, I think its cheaper to pay game designers to produce a game/sim in Russia rather than America.

 

IMHO that is the reason, why we saw and still see the change in games industries. And it is infact one reason with 2 points, supporting each other.

 

The gaming-companies in the western world have pretty high salaries, high costs for living and health-programs, high rental costs, etc. So if they make a game, it really has to count, so they have to aim for a large market. In the US, the console market is already bigger than in Europe and I doubt this will turn around anytime soon.

So the logic consequence is, that the niche markets are all sucked up my teams in the east. That's true for all the simulation market, ranging from SilentHunter over IL2 and LockOn/DCS to titles like "Heroes of WW2" and "World in Conflict".

Those who make it into the hall of fame, like WiC then again get bought up by western companies, which make everything to draw as much benefit from it as possible, drying out the label and the company until they part again or the programmers open a new studio and make a new game with their engine and know-how.

 

 

That is actually a reason, why I think that STEAM will get more attention over the next years than ever before. It saves a lot of money for smaller companies and enables them to release their titles pretty much independently and it also allows them to release smaller addons and patches via autoupdate or as payware.

[MBot]

Perhaps this is completely wrong, but I would also say that low salaries are the reason flight sims can still be developed in Russia with some profit while they have gotten economically unviable in Europe and the USA.

[EvilBivol-1]

This is probably true. However, there are many places in the world with comparatively low salaries, even relative to Russia! So, that is only part of the answer.

[EtherealN]

Also, I would point out that there are big salary differences within russia. My own experience of three Russian towns and cities (Kostomoksha in Karelia, Tikhvin in the Leningrad Oblast and St. Petersburg) certainly gave me the impression that our western idea of what russia is economically still exists in the smaller towns and rural areas - but in the big cities we would be better served to wake up and realize that there's no real difference between St. Petersburg, Stockholm or Detroit.

 

So with ED being in Moscow I'd say it's entirely possible that the ED guys make as much or almost as much as they would in the west.

[Maximus_G]

Perhaps this is completely wrong, but I would also say that low salaries are the reason flight sims can still be developed in Russia with some profit while they have gotten economically unviable in Europe and the USA.

 

The limiting factor is the low salaries that don't allow people to buy consoles! :)

[MBot]

This is probably true. However, there are many places in the world with comparatively low salaries, even relative to Russia! So, that is only part of the answer.

 

Well, of course I meant low salaries for highly qualified people :)

[Feuerfalke]

I doubt you are completely wrong, MBot, as this was posted by other people before.

 

IMHO it is the special combination of low salaries and low costs for living (except for inner Moscow, which is one of the most expensive places in the world) with the unlimited access to hardware and software and to the internet as well.

 

Thus you have low-costs and a large pool of young people with the know-how. Excellent basis for this.

 

On a personal note:

I also think that the so often damned piracy especially in the eastern countries is infact a big bonus for the game- and software-industry in these states, because the access to professional tools is much easier without paying > 1500 $ each ;)

[BaD CrC]

Just my 2 cents on this topic, from my own professional experience in the military/aeronautics area and having worked once with russian miltary industry.

I am sure you guys remember that the PC industry all started in the western side, and more precisely in the US during the 70's/80's. At this time, US got prime access to the latest technologies in computing while they were very careful to prevent USSR to do the same (iron curtain, cold war, remember?). At the same time, USSR has to rival with US in terms of weapons capability, but without the computing power. So they use their mathematicians to develop and optimize their algorithms so it can run on low spec computers with the same efficiency than US algorithms on ultra high spec CPUs. This produced extremely code efficient programmers, and I suspect that the guys now working in the game/simulation industry are probably the product of this era.

As you all know, good flight simulation is mainly a CPU job, and as such, to get the best and most realistic flight sim, you need to have pretty efficient algorithms if you want a decent frame rate (example: compare FSX and BS).

[192nd_Erdem]

Well if there's no demand, then there is no product. Then we can assume there are demands for high-fidelity simulations in Russia and CIS, so that developers like Maddox and ED are interested in this market.

 

Thus, majority of the aircraft are Russian. It wouldn't be very logical to try to sell American plane sims in a Russian market :)

[Jigsaw]

Publishers thought that forcing people to buy a peripheral to play a game was financial suicide. To some extent, they were proven wrong. You just need the right game to make it work.

 

You know what's really sad? That Thrustmaster, of all companies, bundle their T.Flight HOTAS X stick with HawX instead of a proper sim... that's how far it's gone.

[Zakk]

Now that I'm typing about it, I can't recall who made that other sim; was it MicroProse, Sierra, anyone remember?

 

This is the "Combat Flight Simulator" I played extensively in 1992 on my PC. I think I ran it on a 16bit Trident TVGA 9000 at a res of 1024 x 768 on a 14" CRT!

 

 

Check out some of the action here:

 

And here is an earlier arcade console version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuKpK8lgBH4

Edited April 6, 2009 by Zakk

[Legolasindar]

You forgotten Armed Assault (checoslovakia), Steel Fury, and others.

[EtherealN]

You forgotten Armed Assault (checoslovakia), Steel Fury, and others.

 

Actually, Czechoslovakia ceased to exist in 1993. :P

Bohemia Interactive are based in Prague, Czech Republic.

[Acedy]

Posted this in another thread but it actually fits in here better. It's a BBC documentary about the history of Tetris, which gives very interesting insights into the relationships of eastern and western software producers and publishers 20 years ago, at the end of the cold war era.

 

It may also contain a little surprise for some people (see part 2 and 3)... ;)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcBIpn6a4yU

...

 

Unfortunately the subtitles are not in English.

[ObvilionLost]

Why good sims come out in Russia? Because in US and the West market for flight sims doesn't exist at all, some might say there is but for large companies such as UbiSoft and EA games this market is not large enough and they simply ignore it. If one could make 12 years olds to love flight sims, every company would be making flight sims :music_whistling:

[Lav69]

- but in the big cities we would be better served to wake up and realize that there's no real difference between St. Petersburg, Stockholm or Detroit.

 

There's one big difference. The murder rate in Detroit is one of the highest in the world. :noexpression:

[EtherealN]

Which reminds me to clarify: I was not talking about St. Petersburg in Pennsylvania (population 404 :D) nor St. Petersburg Florida. The latter apparently having the same nickname as the real thing - St Pete. At least that's how my driver always referred to it. (Them colonists really failed at imagination when they were doing their colonization thing...)

[Lav69]

The limiting factor is the low salaries that don't allow people to buy consoles! :)

 

Then how would they buy computers? Especially pc's good enough to run BS and especially the up and coming beast that will be Rise of Flight.

[Lav69]

Which reminds me to clarify: I was not talking about St. Petersburg in Pennsylvania (population 404 :D) nor St. Petersburg Florida. The latter apparently having the same nickname as the real thing - St Pete. At least that's how my driver always referred to it. (Them colonists really failed at imagination when they were doing their colonization thing...)

 

:megalol:

True...we weren't very imaginative. Hell in Georgia there is an Athens, Berlin and Rome.

 

Anyways back on topic. Maybe it's just pure desire. Maybe it's just that there are more developers in Russia that just love doing flight sims.

Edited April 6, 2009 by Lav69

[EtherealN]

Reminds me as well - an american friend of mine gave me a vivid retelling of how his brain went totally WTF when he heard of russian troops having entered Georgia. :D

 

Though on colonisation, we swedes weren't much better. When we colonized Delaware the best name we could come up with was Nya Sverige - New Sweden... And one part of it got named Uppland - which is a province of Sweden. (Just north of Stockholm)

Edited April 6, 2009 by EtherealN

[Maximus_G]

Then how would they buy computers? Especially pc's good enough to run BS

Home PC is traditionally used to read, write, calculate, listen music, watch films and pics. If there are children in the family (which is normal), then PC is being used more intensively, in education process. That's besides gaming.

Even if consoles are able now to do many things like that (pics, films, music), PC is still a traditional "tool".

So, when parents consider buying a console or a PC for their children, PC looks more preferable because it's more convenient in not just gaming, but learning. It gets more important when children go to high and higher school.

Looking at shops selling games and other CD/DVDs, i see PC market prevailing here. And computer hardware stores are always popular, each time i'm there - i see many people there.

 

And, well, BS is slow but quite playable on my old Athlon-754 2.2GHz, X850XT.

 

and especially the up and coming beast that will be Rise of Flight.

You're quite right, that's not a usual game, that's a strange beast, even among flight sims.

[pbsmgm]

This is the exact reason IMO, along with American business greed equals instant gratification for all the dummies that own and play consoles; I had the Atari 2600 console as a kid and it was the most advanced gaming in it's day--I never ever expected we would GO BACK to consoles after the PC. It's the same reason why that dumb Guitar Hero is such a hit; no American wants to take the time to learn the real thing. Add the stupid TV shows like American Idol, and So you think you can dance crap and we are all doomed over here. The Japanese hate the Apple I-Phone and I don't blame them--I would never own one either--but try telling that to my kid. For years American car companies have been producing JUNK and it has finally caught up with them. I say good for Russia and any other country that wants to take the time to produce a highly detailed polished sim/game. That HAWK game is a joke and I might as well play Pac-Man if that's all were going to get from American developers.

 

Speaking for the Americans, I can say your perception of us is just about as pathetic as American Idol, HAWX and Guitar Hero. And you don't even know HAWX has nothing to do with America. But Hey, throw the it all in on America. The other things are a joke too. Do you even play an instrument yourself. Have you read any history books. Do you live here? Do you have a clue as to anything other than what you see on TV and read in the news, which is all driven by liberal nutjobs, about the majority of our culture. I have played classical, flamenco, jazz and blues on the guitar for over 35 years (I am 41 now) and I agree that Guitar Hero is for lazy KIDS who don't want to take the time. But quit saying the Americans don't want to take the time. I could play circles around you on the guitar. I agree the new generation might not want to take the time..but even so, there are many good, very good, youth players as well as what American guitarists have contributed to the world in music that you are not even mentioning. Additionally, I own 4 businesses and work about 120 hours per week. I have many employees and have done everything right without greed and am still getting hammered by the economy because of greed from what a very small fraction of Greed on Wall St created....But it's NOT "those Americans." In fact, I bet I work two to three times harder than you. And all that greed is going on in Europe too and eveywhere else. You just don't focus on any other news obviously...but all you see is the TV. Why don't you learn what's really going instead of just say "oh, those Americans" you don't have a clue. Lastly, I have been a network engineer and am extremely astute with PCs since the mid 70s and I love Flight Sims adn the more real they are the better. And I love learning aviation and so do many Americans. In fact, everyone I know here in America has a high desire to learn. I wish you would stop watching TV and actually learn about "those Americans" when you don't have a clue.

Edited April 6, 2009 by pbsmgm

[GGTharos]

That has got to be one of the most clueless statements with respect to use of computing power ever.

 

So they use their mathematicians to develop and optimize their algorithms so it can run on low spec computers with the same efficiency than US algorithms on ultra high spec CPUs. This produced extremely code efficient programmers, and I suspect that the guys now working in the game/simulation industry are probably the product of this era.

[Safari Ken]

Speaking for the Americans, I can say your perception of us is just about as pathetic as American Idol, HAWX and Guitar Hero. And you don't even know HAWX has nothing to do with America. But Hey, throw the it all in on America. The other things are a joke too. Do you even play an instrument yourself. Have you read any history books. Do you live here? Do you have a clue as to anything other than what you see on TV and read in the news, which is all driven by liberal nutjobs, about the majority of our culture. I have played classical, flamenco, jazz and blues on the guitar for over 35 years (I am 41 now) and I agree that Guitar Hero is for lazy KIDS who don't want to take the time. But quit saying the Americans don't want to take the time. I could play circles around you on the guitar. I agree the new generation might not want to take the time..but even so, there are many good, very good, youth players as well as what American guitarists have contributed to the world in music that you are not even mentioning. Additionally, I own 4 businesses and work about 120 hours per week. I have many employees and have done everything right without greed and am still getting hammered by the economy because of greed from what a very small fraction of Greed on Wall St created....But it's NOT "those Americans." In fact, I bet I work two to three times harder than you. And all that greed is going on in Europe too and eveywhere else. You just don't focus on any other news obviously...but all you see is the TV. Why don't you learn what's really going instead of just say "oh, those Americans" you don't have a clue. Lastly, I have been a network engineer and am extremely astute with PCs since the mid 70s and I love Flight Sims adn the more real they are the better. And I love learning aviation and so do many Americans. In fact, everyone I know here in America has a high desire to learn. I wish you would stop watching TV and actually learn about "those Americans" when you don't have a clue.

 

Yeah, Zakk lives in Vancouver, WA (see his location for details - though I assume he doesn't live AT the airport). I live in Oregon, and I'm American, and I agree with most of his statement. However, don't feel too bad; it's true that Hawx was developed outside the US, so I guess you got him there...

 

Guitar Hero is not ruining kids' desire to learn real guitar, it's just getting in the way is all. In the same way, arguably, that flight sims get in the way of people learning how to actually fly. You know, why pay all that money and risk dying and whatnot, when you can just jump into MS Flight Sim?

 

Oh, and for the record, I like my iPhone, thanks. It's not perfect, but it's still a nice little device!

[Chibawang]

Well done, sir.