No Sinai updates in February 2024 patch?

[VFA41_Lion]

Surprised to see no updates for this map since the Instagram account had been posting screenshots of map updates for awhile.

[Delta134]

Some terrible product support being displayed by OnReTech here. This completely destroys customer trust. OnReTech should be aware this is very damaging to them and their product. They'll have to show some serious change and improvement. I hope Eagle Dynamics also plays a role in making them aware of this. Ultimately it is their brand.

[Adam996]

[BarTzi]

1 hour ago, Schlingel mit Kringel said:

Was something officially announced for todays patch? Afaik everything is going along the roadmap with an update in Q1 2024.

Didn't they say Jan was their goal for the update?

Edited February 22, 2024 by BarTzi

[Nightstalker]

It was supposed to be out before Christmas, now 2 months later still nothing.

[rwbishUP]

They won't even acknowledge posts from the people who bought their product......pitiful.

[BarTzi]

1 hour ago, Schlingel mit Kringel said:

Might be, i am not really up to date with this. Q1 was just what was floating around in my head.

As a reminder though: it is their first map, so i personally find it just fair to take things a bit relaxed. Especially with that early access tag on it in addition, we all know what it means (you are buying into 'work in progress', things will take time, things will change a lot).
Ugra's first map Normandy, as far as i remember, was a bit of a mess when it came out and took a while. Razbams South Atlantic, as their first map project, is a bit rough too. Australia as, afaik, a new dev teams project will be too, guaranteed. Especially in software development, when you try to do and estimate things on projects you never done before, it can be quite off and you might hit walls you never expected to encounter.

So my personal take is to chill and support them when i can with bug reports and similar. From what i have seen, quite some work has been done for the update so far, so they are on it. And they have done quite a good job imho in communicating things and taking community requests in the past. Being quiet probably means they are all hands on.

It's their first map, but they charged us for it, so we are allowed to voice our concerns. Here's what's going on - this map was released more than half a year ago, with many issues, as any other EA product. The difference is you usually see the third-party developer pushing to get hotfixes out the door and solve bugs incrementally. OnRe did not do that. Zero fixes. Zero updates. Some sort of weird fixation on a big update somewhere down the road, instead of fixing their current issues. 

Edited February 23, 2024 by BarTzi

[krazyj]

I honestly dont think the lack of update is the issue. 

The issue is lack of comms, lack of a reliable road map.  No one forced them to post an update road map with delivery goals. its their own doing. So what good is the road map when its thoroughly being ignored 

[RaisedByWolves]

ED needs to crack the whip on these developers. It  reflects on them as well.

[BIGNEWY]

10 hours ago, RaisedByWolves said:

ED needs to crack the whip on these developers. It  reflects on them as well.

We have no control over third party work or priorities, they are in the best position to know what they can and can not do. 

I can pass on your feedback, that is all, but I think you all need to continue to be patient, development can take time, when they are ready to share news they will.

Thank you 

[Ebphoto]

It is called Early Access!! That means it’s not finished and many things in the map are in the process of being developed. If you want a full clean and performance enhanced map then wait for the official release and don’t purchase the Early Access version. I’m sure they will update the map when they have enough additions and fixes to go into a patch. I think they plan to release things in the patches based on their roadmap. I don’t get how people purchase Early Access/ Beta modules and then complain about things they don’t like etc when the maps not finished! Personally I think this maps pretty great and I seem to fly it more and more. To help me keep things in perspective, I always compare what we have now to how all this started. It’s amazing how far this simulation has grown and improved over the years! I can remember when we used to try and dogfight over 300bps modems and thought 16bit graphics were awesome! If you compare DCS and the modules to that it’s mind blowing what we can do now, especially in VR!!! We have servers available 24 hours a day 7 days a week with up to 50 people all flying together or against each other, thats nuts compared to a 300bps modem over a land line! I don’t think I would have left my house/ room if we had this level of sim back in those days. Heck we dreamed of having 3D trees and terrain like this! Looking back always helps me look forward. Try it, can’t hurt! Also if you go on Instagram and look at OnReTechs account they frequently post pictures of things they are working on for this map, like buildings, destroyed buildings and assets etc.. so check it out.

[cfrag]

22 minutes ago, Ebphoto said:

I think they plan to release things in the patches based on their roadmap.

We all believe that. I think what we are experiencing now is a decided lack of communication on the side of ORT. IMHO, they are unnecessarily burning a lot of Karma and goodwill that hey had amassed with their great roadmap. That roadmap projected an update for late December. Since it was an early projection, and stuff happens, and the contents looks to be very, very juicy, people like me were very happy to see that.

What now is a bit of a let-down is that ORT fumbled communications. Probably even the greatest optimist in the world would have been surprised if ORT delivered a patch on schedule. What many (me included) did expect to happen, though, was some kind of communication in lieu of a a patch - a status update. I don't think that any body here believes that ORT is holding back a patch to spite us - that would be silly. What is a bit disappointing is when someone who is held is such high regard fails to meet expectations. A simple note 'we are still working on it, progress is fine, we are looking at <warning: freely invented date following> easter" could have done wonders.

32 minutes ago, Ebphoto said:

I don’t get how people purchase Early Access/ Beta modules and then complain about things they don’t like etc when the maps not finished!

I believe if you re-read the messages here it's not so much the fact that the map is incomplete and has bugs (which it is and it has), but most complaints seem to center around the fact that there has been quite some time since the initial release and no intermediate patch. We haven't even seen a 'low hanging fruit' update. Publishing updates can be expensive and fraught with risk, so to some extent I find this understandable. After some 8 months, I feel that ORT is approaching a point in time where it becomes increasingly difficult to explain even to their fans (I'm one of them) why we have to wait for so long for a patch or communications update. Either would be fine for me; I love the Sinai map, and have a couple of missions ready to release and just waiting for an update.

38 minutes ago, Ebphoto said:

If you compare DCS and the modules to that it’s mind blowing what we can do now, especially in VR!!!

Indeed. But that's more a comment on how far the community and flight simulation has come in general - rather than a reflection on the pros and cons of long release cycles. If I purchase a new VR set today and the experience was rotten, I would take offense if the vendor told me "sure it's bad, but just remember how far we have come since View-Master -- isn't that great?". So simply because it's been one hell of a ride since A2FS1 (my first flight sim ca. 1980) vendors do not get a free pass today. 

41 minutes ago, Ebphoto said:

Looking back always helps me look forward. Try it, can’t hurt!

Not to be snarky, I think that is exactly what's happening, only different than you think. Many people look back and say "hey, that's 8 months since the release of one of the best maps ever, and we still haven't gotten a single patch". That does hurt a little bit, especially if we look at the incredible potential that this map has the great expectations that we have in ORT after doing such an awesome job. 

[markom]

7 hours ago, Ebphoto said:

It is called Early Access!

Exactly right! That implies some brokeness and a a fast turnaround at bug-fixing. It appears we've gotten only one part of that bargain in exchange for our money :-).

[Burning Bridges]

I don't demand major updates but the map has many minor errors like wrong frequencies and the marker that should have been fixed within weeks, not a year

They must have identified those for a long time and a fix sounds easy. You would expect a developer would want to fix it over the weekend so they can concentrate on the real work. But it's hard to understand how the creators seem to have all the time in the world and don't fix these slips of the pen first. It's as if they don't care that people don't have the optimal impression of their work.

 

 

[Ebphoto]

8 hours ago, markom said:

Exactly right! That implies some brokeness and a a fast turnaround at bug-fixing. It appears we've gotten only one part of that bargain in exchange for our money :-).

Who ever said “Fast Turnaround”? I don’t remember reading or hearing that before. I’m not sure what is so broken or so bad that you need this map updated so badly? I don’t really have any problems running this at all. Granted my systems a beast but it even runs on my MSI Gaming laptop without any problems. I really don’t expect ORT to respond to this forum very often.  I’m sure they know the issues , though I don’t, and are working on it. We aren’t privy to the way they do business or whats being discussed between ORT & ED. Who knows? I have seen them respond here on other topics so I know they check this forum. I thought there was a patch that had some updates on the Sinai map, not 100% sure though. I have gotten responses from them on Instagram and they repost a lot of my video shorts etc on their story or Instagram account which I’m thankful. I have never asked about dates or when the new items will be available since I’m not too worried about it. I fly this map all the time single play and multiplayer with friends on our own servers. There isn’t anything glaring at me that needs fixing or anything preventing me from using it. Sure I’d love to see some new parts of the map and airports etc but I have too many other things to worry about than when ORT is going to patch the map or when something is going to release. I’m a very laid back person & lots of patience so I’ll stand by to stand by as we used to say.

[markom]

That's what "early release" implies... At least monthly updates, until glaring bugs are ironed out. For example... the one where you cannot place bullseye, because it's way off the map.

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, markom said:

That's what "early release" implies... At least monthly updates

To me 'early release' implies exactly that: a pre-mature (i.e. not fit for production) release, meaning that we (the customer) must expect that the product has (even major) flaws. The fact that it is an early release unfortunately does not imply anything about if, or when, there will be updates. Those are aspirational, and can be seen as a reward to those brave souls who trust the vendor and support them with their own funds and help them stay afloat until they can get to a full release. IMHO, there's no implied periodicity of updates with an early release - but that is where a vendor/developer can differentiate themselves, can gain a lot of goodwill and reputation. Lately, ORT seem to have dropped the ball a bit here.

IMHO, these early releases are a reflection of today's changed market dynamics: the need for developers to cash in early to relieve the pressure to refinance their project - and (lets be honest) it's a disincentive to actually finish the project (the sales have been made), so only companies with a broader strategy and vision will/can deliver a steady stream of quality updates to their audience after an early release. I'm hoping that ORT have that vision and will release a product that delivers on the great promise that the early release has. That's the bet I made when I purchased Sinai in its currently unfinished state. I'm hoping that ORT prove themselves worthy of our trust. And I feel that some communication from ORT could go a long way to assuage many of our disenchantments over the long, long time between updates.

[markom]

That's why we, the consumers, can vote with our wallets

[BIGNEWY]

2 hours ago, markom said:

That's what "early release" implies... At least monthly updates, until glaring bugs are ironed out. For example... the one where you cannot place bullseye, because it's way off the map.

That may be your expectation, but it does not imply monthly updates. You need to be patient, if that is not something you are good with it may be best not to use early access and wait for a full release. 

thank you 

[mwd2]

We don't need a monthly update - we need an update!

We all okay with early access, and we all know it is not finish - but no update for 9 months since EA-Release?
We saw all the pictures of new buildings, the upcoming airfields, the identification of bugs in the thread, the update on the roadmap...

All this is fine, but without any fix in DCS - how could we promote this map to other player?
 

9 months no changes! 

Edited March 7, 2024 by mwd2

[markom]

8 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

That may be your expectation, but it does not imply monthly updates. You need to be patient, if that is not something you are good with it may be best not to use early access and wait for a full release. 

thank you 

Honestly... not the way to talk to paying customers, you know :-). Especially the ones who are not too unreasonable. I even called out a specific bug that remains unfixed since... well... the actual release. It's not an obscure or invisible one. It's a very tangible one.

Not cool, man. Not. Cool.

[Ebphoto]

3 hours ago, markom said:

Honestly... not the way to talk to paying customers, you know :-). Especially the ones who are not too unreasonable. I even called out a specific bug that remains unfixed since... well... the actual release. It's not an obscure or invisible one. It's a very tangible one.

Not cool, man. Not. Cool.

Your expectations are not set correctly. It’s not that they are speaking to you in any way, it’s that you just don’t like the answer! Sorry but Early Access just means you get to see and play with it before its bugs are worked out. It’s part of the excitement of seeing something Early. It has flaws and things will need to be fixed etc.. There NO agreement that updates need to be made or monthly updates will be made. Just have patients and go with the process. Life is way too short to worry about this stuff! If this is stressful or you don’t like the process than don’t do it! Pretty simple!

Cfrag, Well said and a perfect explanation of what Early Access is. I agree with this and people need to reset their expectations of what EA is.

[markom]

4 hours ago, Ebphoto said:

Sorry but Early Access just means you get to see and play with it before its bugs are worked out.

Aye. The assumption is that they are being worked out. While, of course, they may be, we as users have little to no evidence that, in fact, they are :-).

That being said, noone here will persuade anyone else, and the conversation is likely no longer constructive. I have my wallet to voice the opinions with :-).

[79Au]

9 months without any update is unacceptable for any early access product. The way BN handles this situation, defending the party that hasn't delivered, just adds insult to injury. Booo!

[Silver_Dragon]

15 minutes ago, 79Au said:

9 months without any update is unacceptable for any early access product. The way BN handles this situation, defending the party that hasn't delivered, just adds insult to injury. Booo!

OnRetech continue working on the next update, and remember 3rd parties has none control on the release. ED need aproval  by QA teams them before release on a patch, and ORT has no work on a little patch, has working on a big update.