PLAAF Posted January 22 Posted January 22 4 hours ago, AndyJWest said: This is a contract dispute. There are no 'labour laws' involved, since ED doesn't employ anyone at Razbam. Same thing, payment issue. My Adorable Communist Errand Girls Led by me, the Communist Errand Panda
AndyJWest Posted January 22 Posted January 22 2 minutes ago, PLAAF said: Same thing, payment issue. No. Breach of contract, by one of the parties, or both. No labour laws involved. Pretending this is something it isn't won't make it go away. 6
PLAAF Posted January 22 Posted January 22 5 hours ago, AndyJWest said: No. Breach of contract, by one of the parties, or both. No labour laws involved. Pretending this is something it isn't won't make it go away. No need to play word games, what I meant was that it is a payment issue. Razbam is accusing ED for not paying for their work. So I say just pay them and get this thing over with. My Adorable Communist Errand Girls Led by me, the Communist Errand Panda
LorenLuke Posted January 22 Posted January 22 31 minutes ago, PLAAF said: No need to play word games, what I meant was that it is a payment issue. Razbam is accusing ED for not paying for their work. So I say just pay them and get this thing over with. If you think HE's playing word games with this issue, just wait until you see what both sides legal teams do. Also ED is accusing RB of unlicensed use of their intellectual property. Do you pay employees that take from the till? 7 1
LordOrion Posted January 22 Posted January 22 (edited) 2 hours ago, PLAAF said: No need to play word games, what I meant was that it is a payment issue. Razbam is accusing ED for not paying for their work. So I say just pay them and get this thing over with. ED stated that they are not paying RB cause they messed up with the contract. So I have another suggestion: let's RB comply with the contract first and then ED will restart to pay them. What about this? Edited January 22 by LordOrion 4 RDF 3rd Fighter Squadron - "Black Knights": "Ar Cavajere Nero nun je devi cacà er cazzo!" "I love this game: I am not going to let Zambrano steal the show." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CPU: i7-11700K@5GHz|GPU: RTX-4070 Super|RAM: 64GB DDR4@3200MHz|SSD: 970EVO Plus + 2x 980 PRO|HOTAS Warthog + AVA Base + Pro Rudder Pedals|TrackIR 5|
MustangSally Posted January 22 Posted January 22 2 hours ago, PLAAF said: No need to play word games, what I meant was that it is a payment issue. Razbam is accusing ED for not paying for their work. So I say just pay them and get this thing over with. Can I roll on the floor and laugh my 'you know what' off? 6 1 Ryzen 9 7950X3D - MSI MAG X670E TomaHawk MB, ASUS ROG Ryujin III 360 AIO 64gig Corsair DDR5@6000, Gigabyte GeForce RTX 4090 AORUS Winwing Super Taurus, Orion2, TO / Combat panels, Collective with Topgun MIP Winwing Skywalker pedals, NLR Boeing Mil Edition Simpit, 55" Samsung Odyssey Ark, Trackir
AndyJWest Posted January 22 Posted January 22 1 hour ago, PLAAF said: No need to play word games, what I meant was that it is a payment issue. Razbam is accusing ED for not paying for their work. So I say just pay them and get this thing over with. Do you actually understand what a contract is? Where payment is involved, it will be conditional on complying with the terms of the contract. Which for a contract between ED and third-party developers, will clearly include limitations on what they can and cannot do with ED's intellectual property - its use, and/or its disclosure to third parties. When you breach a contract, you can't expect to simply get paid anyway. I don't know the specifics of what exactly occurred (there are various claims, some of which seem more plausible than others, but nothing really verifiable), and nor do I know who is in the right here (if either party is), but if Razbam has done anything in breach of the terms regarding IP at all, ED is hardly going to ignore it. Depending on the nature of the breach, its consequences could be relatively minor, or they could be threatening to the entire business (e.g. if it involved unauthorised disclosure of significant parts of ED's source code, API, documentation etc to a third party in a position to exploit it). If Razbam has done that, there really won't be any way back, since you can't 'un-disclose' such things later. 7
LordOrion Posted January 22 Posted January 22 21 minutes ago, MustangSally said: Can I roll on the floor and laugh my 'you know what' off? Wait your turn, please 6 RDF 3rd Fighter Squadron - "Black Knights": "Ar Cavajere Nero nun je devi cacà er cazzo!" "I love this game: I am not going to let Zambrano steal the show." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CPU: i7-11700K@5GHz|GPU: RTX-4070 Super|RAM: 64GB DDR4@3200MHz|SSD: 970EVO Plus + 2x 980 PRO|HOTAS Warthog + AVA Base + Pro Rudder Pedals|TrackIR 5|
Nightdare Posted January 23 Posted January 23 4 hours ago, LorenLuke said: Do you pay employees that take from the till? Many people have posted a comment such as this, and it hardly ever gets answered (I'm almost sure it never got answered, only deflected) After this time, I'm convinced the people that have been asked this question, willfully ignore to answer it, because we all know the answer and it would conflict with their held position 7 1 Intel I5 13600k / AsRock Z790 Steel Legend / MSI 4080s 16G Gaming X Slim / Kingston Fury DDR5 5600 64Gb / Adata 960 Max / HP Reverb G2 v2 Virpil MT50 Mongoost T50 Throttle, T50cm Base & Grip, VFX Grip, ACE Interceptor Rudder Pedals w. damper / WinWing Orion2 18, 18 UFC & HUD, PTO2, 2x MFD1 / Logitech Flight Panel / VKB SEM V / 2x DIY Button Box
Mizzy Posted January 23 Posted January 23 5 hours ago, PLAAF said: No need to play word games, what I meant was that it is a payment issue. Razbam is accusing ED for not paying for their work. So I say just pay them and get this thing over with. You are showing your ignorance, or denial of what this dispute is really all about. Read the first post and you will realise you have been manipulated, or rather being played in understanding the issue of this dispute. It's nothing to do with Zambrano's false claims of not being paid for no reason. This is why Razbam are finished as a 'developer' for DCS and your comment reinforces this, in my opinion. Please stop this non payment issue nonsense as the real reason for the dispute, just read the first post. Mizzy 5
felixx75 Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Somehow you all must enjoy blaming each other and chewing over the same conjectures, assumptions and speculations over and over again without coming up with anything even slightly useful or informative... Since there are no official statements about what exactly the problem is, any speculation about it is simply a waste of time (and no, any statements from any people in any Discord channels don't count). 5
Nightdare Posted January 23 Posted January 23 5 hours ago, felixx75 said: without coming up with anything even slightly useful or informative... Ironically: neither does your contribution 3 Intel I5 13600k / AsRock Z790 Steel Legend / MSI 4080s 16G Gaming X Slim / Kingston Fury DDR5 5600 64Gb / Adata 960 Max / HP Reverb G2 v2 Virpil MT50 Mongoost T50 Throttle, T50cm Base & Grip, VFX Grip, ACE Interceptor Rudder Pedals w. damper / WinWing Orion2 18, 18 UFC & HUD, PTO2, 2x MFD1 / Logitech Flight Panel / VKB SEM V / 2x DIY Button Box
felixx75 Posted January 23 Posted January 23 55 minutes ago, Nightdare said: Ironically: neither does your contribution That's one of the usual answers (but it doesn't change anything)... But be that as it may, you should just carry on here as before and not argue about anything, spread speculation and half-truths. Nothing will be accomplished, expedited or even resolved by this thread until there is an official statement from ED and Razbam, and we'll see that in the updated first post. What is written here has absolutely no influence on this. 4
Nightdare Posted January 23 Posted January 23 3 hours ago, felixx75 said: That's one of the usual answers (but it doesn't change anything)... But be that as it may, you should just carry on here as before and not argue about anything, spread speculation and half-truths. Nothing will be accomplished, expedited or even resolved by this thread until there is an official statement from ED and Razbam, and we'll see that in the updated first post. What is written here has absolutely no influence on this. I'm quite sure customer opinion has its value, perhaps not in ending this dispute, but as a lesson learned for future ones? 3 Intel I5 13600k / AsRock Z790 Steel Legend / MSI 4080s 16G Gaming X Slim / Kingston Fury DDR5 5600 64Gb / Adata 960 Max / HP Reverb G2 v2 Virpil MT50 Mongoost T50 Throttle, T50cm Base & Grip, VFX Grip, ACE Interceptor Rudder Pedals w. damper / WinWing Orion2 18, 18 UFC & HUD, PTO2, 2x MFD1 / Logitech Flight Panel / VKB SEM V / 2x DIY Button Box
Mizzy Posted January 23 Posted January 23 3 hours ago, felixx75 said: That's one of the usual answers (but it doesn't change anything)... But be that as it may, you should just carry on here as before and not argue about anything, spread speculation and half-truths. Nothing will be accomplished, expedited or even resolved by this thread until there is an official statement from ED and Razbam, and we'll see that in the updated first post. What is written here has absolutely no influence on this. That's a fair comment, however, I think we have this thread due to Zambrano going public about the dispute and this is a way of containing the 'disparaging' remarks made by the said Party and contained in the first post. Afterall, Razbam have their discord, it would be unfair to just have the narrative of one side of the story. Mizzy
felixx75 Posted January 24 Posted January 24 8 hours ago, Nightdare said: I'm quite sure customer opinion has its value, perhaps not in ending this dispute, but as a lesson learned for future ones? Of course customer opinion is important, but here the same people talk about the same speculations over and over again. That has nothing to do with customer opinion. And by the way, it will probably be clear that the general opinion will be that everyone hopes that the dispute will be brought to a positive conclusion as soon as possible and that the situation will normalize. 4
Masterdoddy Posted January 24 Posted January 24 I pop in from time to time to see if anything has been updated on the situation. This won't contribute in any way, but I just felt I wanted to say something on the subject, if you will all indulge me. A group of 3 of us dabbled with DCS during Covid, led by me, but only properly got into it about 2 years ago (thanks to the A4 mod) and even then rarely flying due to family/work life. None with any flightsim experience, but wanting a new challenge. The learning curve was steep, but we perservered. I eventually used the 50% first time discount and bought more than I could justify, but during the trials I had fallen in love with the Mirage thanks to a super campaign for new people, and the AV8B since I heard a Sea Harrier was coming; my brother buying the latter for the same reason. The third of the group finally commited when he saw the F15E and it was an instant love for him. Each of us have now spent more on joysticks, throttles, etc. as a consequence of this enjoyment. I only relay this to say that, for quite new and inexperienced people, the RAZBAM/ED issue has becoming surprisingly off putting. That we coincidentally all fell in love with modules made by RAZBAM says to me they were doing something right with them. With considerably less disposable income these days, so are unlikely able to buy other modules, we are all a little concerned we put a lot of money into something we are going to drift away from if these modules deteriorate and/or don't get finished. This was a long winded, unplanned, essay to essentially say; we really hope this can get resolved amicably because, between ED and RAZBAM, we three fell in love with flight sims. 19 1
SkateZilla Posted January 26 Posted January 26 So many Keyboard Attorneys... Tip: Don't waste time trying to justify either side, it's nothing consumers can control. Let the legal teams dispute it, no amount of justification, speculation or hypothesications can make the proceedings go any faster, in fact, the drama and such surrounding this issue, likely makes it harder for the litigation teams on the matter to be conclusively in agreement and resolved the contractual contravention of terms by either side. 6 2 Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2), ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9) 3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs
ebabil Posted January 26 Posted January 26 Anyone following rb side? Are they talking about the situation? FC3 | UH-1 | Mi-8 | A-10C II | F/A-18 | Ka-50 III | F-14 | F-16 | AH-64 | Mi-24 | F-5 | F-15E| F-4| Tornado Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | NS-430 | Supercarrier // Wishlist: CH-53 | UH-60 Youtube MS FFB2 - TM Warthog - CH Pro Pedals - Trackir 5
av8orDave Posted January 26 Posted January 26 29 minutes ago, ebabil said: Anyone following rb side? Are they talking about the situation? Yes. I go to their Discord to see what the buzz is. If you’d like to see an unproductive conversation, and a wild and twisting dialogue that weaves in and out of ED/Razbam, other sims, car enthusiasts, general gaming, political discourse, and general nonsense, that’s a great place to look. 7
Mizzy Posted January 26 Posted January 26 3 hours ago, av8orDave said: Yes. I go to their Discord to see what the buzz is. If you’d like to see an unproductive conversation, and a wild and twisting dialogue that weaves in and out of ED/Razbam, other sims, car enthusiasts, general gaming, political discourse, and general nonsense, that’s a great place to look. Indeed, good description. The problem with Razbam's discord is that you are not allowed to support anything other than Razbam, which means all the posts about this dispute must support Razbam, there are no exceptions. Mizzy 1
LordOrion Posted January 26 Posted January 26 (edited) Quote Yes. I go to their Discord to see what the buzz is. If you’d like to see an unproductive conversation, and a wild and twisting dialogue that weaves in and out of ED/Razbam, other sims, car enthusiasts, general gaming, political discourse, and general nonsense, that’s a great place to look. I've been banned form there several months ago but looks like nothing is changed there since (lol)! Inviato dal mio iPad utilizzando Tapatalk Pro Edited January 26 by LordOrion 2 1 RDF 3rd Fighter Squadron - "Black Knights": "Ar Cavajere Nero nun je devi cacà er cazzo!" "I love this game: I am not going to let Zambrano steal the show." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CPU: i7-11700K@5GHz|GPU: RTX-4070 Super|RAM: 64GB DDR4@3200MHz|SSD: 970EVO Plus + 2x 980 PRO|HOTAS Warthog + AVA Base + Pro Rudder Pedals|TrackIR 5|
ebabil Posted January 26 Posted January 26 Discord is banned here for a while. So nonsense will wait little bit:) 1 FC3 | UH-1 | Mi-8 | A-10C II | F/A-18 | Ka-50 III | F-14 | F-16 | AH-64 | Mi-24 | F-5 | F-15E| F-4| Tornado Persian Gulf | Nevada | Syria | NS-430 | Supercarrier // Wishlist: CH-53 | UH-60 Youtube MS FFB2 - TM Warthog - CH Pro Pedals - Trackir 5
Mizzy Posted January 27 Posted January 27 3 hours ago, ebabil said: Discord is banned here for a while. So nonsense will wait little bit:) Incorrect, you can still access Razbam's discord from the link on this forum! You have to register, nothing more, so why have you said it's "banned here for a while"? Mizzy
Mizzy Posted January 27 Posted January 27 4 hours ago, LordOrion said: I've been banned form there several months ago but looks like nothing is changed there since (lol)! Inviato dal mio iPad utilizzando Tapatalk Pro Correct, nothing has changed, it's the same little bunch patting themselves on the back trashing ED. I am sure Zambrano knows when to smell the hummus as my Grandma used to say . Mizzy 1
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