How to win at BFM in the Mighty F-4E Phantom

[jojo]

21 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I hear the claim that AI has different physics but I don’t see that. What they do have is perfect SA and the ability to fly very precisely. 
 

The AI is completely reactive. They never maneuver proactively. 
 

What this means is that you must force the AI to react to what you do. If you fly in a flat circle, the AI will stay in-plane with you and max perform without error. 
 

So you have constantly give the AI something to react to. 
 

The F-4 excels when fast so a good pre-merge lead turn followed by high and low yo yo’s will generally make for an easy victory. 
 

A pre-merge radar lock will make most of them turn and flare, making your pre-merge lead turn even easier, unless he is a radar shooter too, in which case you will get a missile in the face. 
 

Once you are offensive most of the AI will try a spiral climb to keep you out of the WEZ. 

I just put the bandit in the topside of the forward canopy and pull some lead until the range is good then lag off into the WEZ ( Guns or Heaters)

 

The AI MiG-21Bis can perform 9G to 10G sustained turn but you don't see any problem with that ?

[HWasp]

4 hours ago, MBot said:

Here is what I don't get. People always talk about utilizing the Phantom's superior thrust. But the MiG-21bis actually has excellent thrust too. Depending on the specific weights involved, it might even have the T/W advantage.

Yes, it would be very important to understand, that in DCS, F-4s are not fighting 21F13s or PFs or MFs, but the bis, with the ChR, and it's always on for everybody in DCS. Once below 4000m, don't count on having better T/W than the 21bis, and avoid getting slow fighting it, unless you can see the "21 dance", which might be sign of weakness...

(I'm talking about human opponents only, the 21 AI is just sh.t.) 

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, jojo said:

The AI MiG-21Bis can perform 9G to 10G sustained turn but you don't see any problem with that ?

It’s not particularly relevant to the discussion.

The original premise that I answered was a post stating that someone was having great difficulty defeating AI in the Phantom. My response was that Basic BFM in the Phantom works against the AI, which is absolutely true. 

I don’t spend any time researching AI performance  I have no clue what the AI Fishbed can do or not do

They are a training tool in our group, used to teach some Basic BFM and wing pair tactics

The performance of the AI doesn’t matter 

You fight bandit you have and the pilot matters a lot more than airplane and the AI is extremely predictable as it is purely reactive

I don’t really care if the bandit can sustain 10 G if he is stupid enough to let me get in the WEZ and shoot him  

 

[mattag08]

6 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

New pilot models, updating legacy 3d models of assets, re-compiling the game engine to leverage multi-threading technology, recompiling to use Vulcan, ongoing development of a dynamic campaign engine, upgrade of Fc3 aircraft textures and the ongoing development of the new GFM to improve AI flight dynamics.

All the above would rather prove you wrong.

I was being facetious, but if you want to be serious all of the features you mentioned took ED approximately 10-15 years to implement, so expecting anything near term with them is a fools errand. Not to mention ED has a history of two steps forward, one step back when adding features to the game.

[mattag08]

3 hours ago, MBot said:

Frankly I am not sure. I see plenty of people suggesting to use the vertical. Now I am no expert on this but to me that seems a questionable advice considering the MiG-21bis most likely has a superior T/W ratio (depending on each ones fuel and weapon state).

3 hours ago, some1 said:

In the context of the game, you have some advantage, but not enough to mindlessly lit the burners and extend in every situation. That's what I get from people posting in this thread.

In the context of real world comparisons, they usually don't talk about MiG-21bis in particular.

Not to mention the flight models of most REDFOR aircraft stray quite far from reality in many regimes. Use DCS E-M diagrams, not real world ones. You must implement tactics that work in DCS because players do not need to worry about things such as G and physical exertion. Many maneuvers used in DCS would sling your head into the canopy and cause a concussion. 

On the other hand, you have people saying never go pure vertical, but that is exactly how Randy Cunningham defeated Col. Tomb in his Mig-17F. There's no absolute 100% winning strategy and you must adapt to your opponent, energy states, etc.

Edited May 25, 2024 by mattag08

[irisono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb =475FG= Dawger:

It’s not particularly relevant to the discussion.

The original premise that I answered was a post stating that someone was having great difficulty defeating AI in the Phantom. My response was that Basic BFM in the Phantom works against the AI, which is absolutely true. 

I don’t spend any time researching AI performance  I have no clue what the AI Fishbed can do or not do

They are a training tool in our group, used to teach some Basic BFM and wing pair tactics

The performance of the AI doesn’t matter 

You fight bandit you have and the pilot matters a lot more than airplane and the AI is extremely predictable as it is purely reactive

I don’t really care if the bandit can sustain 10 G if he is stupid enough to let me get in the WEZ and shoot him  

 

May I ask you, why are you and your buddies here if realistic air combat simulation is not important to you? If I interpret your statements correctly, you could also use the famous arcade game as a training tool for your exercises.

I think you should also respect the opinions of DCS users who want the simulation to be as realistic as possible.

[mattag08]

27 minutes ago, irisono said:

May I ask you, why are you and your buddies here if realistic air combat simulation is not important to you? If I interpret your statements correctly, you could also use the famous arcade game as a training tool for your exercises.

I think you should also respect the opinions of DCS users who want the simulation to be as realistic as possible.

I wouldn't worry about it. Based on replies, he has no concept of modern BFM and the E-M diagram or else he would actually understand the relevance. Best to ignore and move on to more productive things.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Casmo TV mentioned the use of Air Refuel Release button. May be I missed something, I can't find what it is for.

 

[GrmlZ]

4 hours ago, jojo said:

The AI MiG-21Bis can perform 9G to 10G sustained turn but you don't see any problem with that ?

Having not flown vs AI Mig-21s in a while and being used to some tall tales on the forums, i went and tested this vs some AI Mig-21s, and damn!

Was this always THIS bad? The AI Mig-21 can indeed sustain a 9G turn indefinitely, while speeding up and gaining altidude.

That is of course also bad news for The F-4E as it means the historic Mig-21bis vs F-4E matchup does not exist in DCS in singelplayer at this point, as the AI Mig-21bis has nothing in comon with a Mig-21, or even just an airplane.

Edited May 25, 2024 by GrmlZ

[Cab]

19 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Casmo TV mentioned the use of Air Refuel Release button. May be I missed something, I can't find what it is for.

 

I can’t provide the source right now, but I think I remember hearing it uncages the Sidewinder seeker

Edit: Here you go

 

Edited May 25, 2024 by Cab

[GrmlZ]

Yes, it uncages the Sidewinder seeker. Needs to be held, like in the F-5.

[Tophatter14]

8 hours ago, Phantom12 said:

Ill be the first to admit Im no expert, not even on paper. Im always happy to be corrected or take advice from people whove been there and done it for real like Victory and yourself. My intent wasnt to lecture anybody and I hope thats not how it came across.

Most of us lack alot of the fundamentals required to understand and implement the quick and dirty advice one usually finds online. I know Ive been trying since I was 10-15 years old to make Phantom tactics learned on the history channel work against MiGs in various simulators, and usually met with fiery failure. Just wanted to add that, unless Ive misunderstood something, from a pure Energy perspective flying the same turns with the nose up doesnt gain you more than it would horizontally.

 

If the F-4 shifts to flying in a way that it can exploit superior T/W then it’s definitely worthwhile. If I read the charts I mentioned earlier correctly I believe 3-5G climbing turns should over time give an F-4 an energy advantage vs the MiG-19. A 6-7G climbing turn probably would not.

You didn’t come across that way at all.  In fact just the opposite- a constructive approach.

Edited May 25, 2024 by Tophatter14

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Thanks guys. Will try it out.

[=475FG= Dawger]

57 minutes ago, mattag08 said:

I wouldn't worry about it. Based on replies, he has no concept of modern BFM and the E-M diagram or else he would actually understand the relevance. Best to ignore and move on to more productive things.

Yet, I have no problem defeating the AI Migs in the Phantom. I guess my apparent ignorance is bliss. 
 

[Phantom12]

7 hours ago, MBot said:

Frankly I am not sure. I see plenty of people suggesting to use the vertical. Now I am no expert on this but to me that seems a questionable advice considering the MiG-21bis most likely has a superior T/W ratio (depending on each ones fuel and weapon state).

If you check out the charts I linked a few pages ago you can see that the DCS F-4E does in fact enjoy a Thrust advantage over the DCS MiG-21Bis (with emergency AB) in plenty of areas. I did some (very very rough) number crunching and I think it retains this advantage, or at least becomes neutral with the MiG even at useable combat loads. As for altitude I have heard that IRL the F-4 had the greatest advantage at lower altitudes vs the -21, but don't know any more specifics than that. I would post screenshots of the charts here but I dont want to share things that are not my own work without knowledge/permission from the creator.

Of course the general takeaway is that if you want to turn and burn with the MiGs, you should try not to lug around too many Sparrows or a full tank of gas when doing so. It goes without saying that external tanks should also be left at the side of the road before entering such a fight.

 

@mattag08 The MiG-17 is probably a great case for using pure vertical as it only has guns and no missiles AFAIK. The other point about adapting tactics from theory to what works for you in practice is also a very good one I think.

[Derbysieger]

For the MiG-29 AI:

Full AB, just before the merge pull up in a climbing turn and get on her six. The AI can't handle that maneuver, pushes the nose down and then starts a lazy turn

5 tries, 5 times I shot her down after two turns. 4 kills with AIM 9, 1 gun kill. This obviously doesn't work against players but I though it was funny.

[Elf1606688794]

4 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

It’s not particularly relevant to the discussion.

The original premise that I answered was a post stating that someone was having great difficulty defeating AI in the Phantom. My response was that Basic BFM in the Phantom works against the AI, which is absolutely true. 

I don’t spend any time researching AI performance  I have no clue what the AI Fishbed can do or not do

They are a training tool in our group, used to teach some Basic BFM and wing pair tactics

The performance of the AI doesn’t matter 

You fight bandit you have and the pilot matters a lot more than airplane and the AI is extremely predictable as it is purely reactive

I don’t really care if the bandit can sustain 10 G if he is stupid enough to let me get in the WEZ and shoot him  

 

This thread is about how to win using BFM so why don't you show us how it's done?

[Victory205]

The topic was how to win at BFM, not who is best at whipping up on the AI. I was hoping against hope that you gents would be discussing corner velocities, control blending, maneuver airspeeds and switchology.

My signature explains much of what is going on here. 

[Elf1606688794]

1 hour ago, Victory205 said:

The topic was how to win at BFM, not who is best at whipping up on the AI. I was hoping against hope that you gents would be discussing corner velocities, control blending, maneuver airspeeds and switchology.

My signature explains much of what is going on here. 

I was hoping this thread would get filled with all kinds of nuggets from people that know more than I do. I was hoping I'd see links to videos, documents, books, etc that I may or may not discover on my own. I guess I was hoping for a treasure trove of information shared by like minded people. I'll keep checking to see if things change.

[Elf1606688794]

@=475FG= Dawger what I mean by showing us isn't just a 30 second YouTube clip of a maneuver, talk us through it, use Tacview analysis etc. 

I don't know your skill level in editing videos but mine is probably worse heh. That said, I use Shotcut (because it's free) and can link you some tutorials for that app if need be, just let me know.

[lxsapper]

3 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

This thread is about how to win using BFM so why don't you show us how it's done?

Like this?

 

 

I'm by far not the best BFM pilot out there, my gun aim sucks most of the time, in this particular fight I lost control of closure 1 time, but I had already put some rounds on the bandit. Definitely doable.

[Elf1606688794]

2 hours ago, lxsapper said:

Like this?

Sort of. I can't tell where the bandit is prior to you sliding in on his 6, a Tacview file would be most excellent to see what exactly you did there.

After watching the video several more times, I do see the MiG twice prior to my previous statement but lose track quickly, the first time was when you looked down into the cockpit. When you looked back up I could no longer see the bandit. (YouTube compression is likely at fault.) Still, a Tacview file would be most helpful.

[mattag08]

5 hours ago, Victory205 said:

The topic was how to win at BFM, not who is best at whipping up on the AI. I was hoping against hope that you gents would be discussing corner velocities, control blending, maneuver airspeeds and switchology.

My signature explains much of what is going on here. 

Am I the only one that doesn't see a signature?

[Cab]

14 minutes ago, mattag08 said:

Am I the only one that doesn't see a signature?

 

[mattag08]

Weird maybe I have them turned off.