AGM-45 Shrike Quick Guide by Klarsnow - updated June 5th 2024

[Mainstay]

Can you guys @IronMike put the SA names in the menu ingame?

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, Mainstay said:

Can you guys @IronMike put the SA names in the menu ingame?

That would be up to ED, not us, also any kind of shrike behavior once it leaves the rail.

[Coenraad]

21 hours ago, gnomechild said:

This should be bold face at the top of this post tbh. This more or less guarantees they will be bugged for anyone trying to use them in multiplayer 

For f sake. Been trying to use these online for many hours, this explains a LOT. 

[SgtPappy]

Confirmed that the Mk 36 works against the SA-3. I've had consistent tone and consistent guidance... but only one hit. You have to pop up REAL close. I haven't got around to using loft yet.

 

Edited May 26, 2024 by SgtPappy

[Northstar98]

What does SA-2 on its own refer to in the table?

The Shrike's Mk 25 being the only one that works against SA-2 (TR) (i.e. the Fan Song E) makes sense, but the Mk 22-Mk 24 doesn't because the Fan Song we have in DCS is the Fan Song E, which operates in the G band. Fan Songs that operate in the E/F band are the Fan Song A, B and F.

 

Speaking of which, it might be useful to have a threat guide in the manual for the radars in DCS, including their frequency and band where known. A list of what frequencies that correspond to what bands can be found here (you're after the new nomenclature). Though, I guess it also depends on how well DCS models it. The other thing is that some radar systems in DCS are actually a combination of radars which may operate on different bands (Straight Flush, Land Roll, Scrum Half and Hot Shot being primary examples).

Also, some radar systems comprise of multiple radars, such as the 1S91 [Straight Flush], whose 1S11 acquisition radar operates in the C band, but its 1S31 tracking/illumination radar operates in the I band. Meaning that the Mk 49 and Mk 49 Mod 1 would only work against the Straight Flush in its track/illuminate mode. The Mk 37 might work (purely looking at the band)

In any case, I'll list Eastern Bloc radars below and I'll bold what guidance section is appropriate, based on the frequency, which I'll write in bold.

At the moment, for the table in the fusing GUI.

• 1S91 [Straight Flush] is the acquisition, target tracking and illumination radar for the 2K12 Kub [SA-6 Gainful]
  • 1S11 acquisition radar operates in the C band. Mk 37 EDIT: This one actually has contradictory information, while this says C band, this says G band. If it's the former, the Mk 37 is accurate, if it's the latter the Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50 is accurate. Neither cite anything though and there's a non-zero chance the former could be mixing nomenclature (the C band in old nomenclature is G band in the new one).
  • 1S31 track/fire-control radar operates in the I band. Mk 36, Mk 49 As above, while this says I band, this says H band if the latter is correct, it means the Mk 49 (either mod) or the Mk 50 is accurate.
• SON-9 [Fire Can] is a fire-control radar for AZP S-60 and KS-19 AAA batteries. It operates between 2.7 and 2.86 GHz (E band) Mk 23, Mk 24
• SNR-75 [Fan Song] is the fire-control radar for the SA-2. In DCS we have the Fan Song E, which operates in the G band, at around 5 GHz. Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50 (Edit 3 - this appears to be the case in DCS).
• SNR-125 [Low Blow] is the fire-control radar for the SA-3. This operates at around 9 GHz, in the I band. Mk 36, Mk 49
• The P-15 Danube [Flat Face A] is an acquisition radar mostly associated with the SA-3 (though is also used as a general purpose search radar, particularly for the Army), in DCS we have the updated P-19 [Flat Face B], which operates in the C band, at 0.83 - 0.88 GHz. Mk 37
• The P-35 [Bar Lock] is primarily an EWR/GCI radar, which operates in the E/F band. Unfortunately, it doesn't exist in DCS (though given how prolific and how well it fits in with our maps and aircraft and the fact we have an appropriate model for it, it really should). Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50

As for other Eastern Bloc SAMs and radars:

• 2K22 Tunguska (2S6) [SA-19 Grison]:
  • 1RL144 [Hot Shot]:
    • Acquisition radar operates in the E/F band. Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50
    • Track/Fire-control radar operates in the I/J band. Mk 36, Mk 49 - Note, wiki (citing C:MO) describes this as a J band system, which would put it beyond any of the shrike guidance sections.
• 9K33 Osa [SA-8 Gecko] - Land Roll (unknown native deignation)
  • Acquisition radar operates at about 7.5 GHz, which is in the H band. Mk 36, Mk 49, Mk 50
  • Track/Fire-control radar operates at 15 GHz, which is in the J band. None of the Shrike guidance sections can target this.
• 9K35M3 Strela-10M3 [SA-13 Gopher] This one is quite difficult as some sources refer to its radar as Hat Box or 9S86 [Snap Shot]. The latter allegedly operates in the mmW range which is in the K to O bands (30 - 300 GHz), which is beyond what any of the guidance sections can target.
• 9K37M1 Buk-M1 [SA-11 Gadfly]
  • 9S18M1 [Snow Drift] SR operates in the F band. Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50
  • 9S35 [Fire Dome] tracking/illumination radar operates in the I/J band. Mk 36, Mk 49
• 9K330 Tor [SA-15 Gauntlet] - Scrum Half (unknown native designation):
  • Acquisition radar operates in the E/F band. Mk 23, Mk 24
  • Engagement radar operates in the G band. Mk 22, Mk 25, Mk 50
• S-200V Vega [SA-5B Gammon]
  • 5N62V [Square Pair] FCR operates at 6.6 GHz, in the H band. Mk 49, Mk 50
  • At the moment the P-19 and 5N59S are used in DCS (though neither are accurate). The actual acquisition radar used for the S-200 is the 5N84A (P-14F) Oborona-14 [Tall King C], which operates in the A band, below the range of the Shrike.
• S-300PS [SA-10B Grumble]:
  • 5N59S [Tin Shield B] SR operates in the E/F band (2.85 - 3.2 GHz). Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50
  • 5N63S [Flap Lid B] FCR operates in the I/J band. Mk 36, Mk 49
  • 5N64S [Big Bird B] SR operates in the E band. Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50
  • 5N66M [Clam Shell] SR - this one has contradictory information, this says it operates in the I band but this says it operates in the E/F band. Mk 36, Mk 49 for the I band, Mk 23, Mk 24, Mk 50 for the E/F band.

EDIT: Forgot the ZSU-23-4, its RPK-2 (1RL33) [Gun Dish] operates at around 15 GHz, in the J band. This is above all of the Shrike's guidance sections - none of them should be able to target it. I also forgot the 1L13 and 55G6, but both operate well below any of the Shrike's guidance sections can target (A/B band).

EDIT 2: I also forgot the 9S80M1 (PPRU-M1) [Dog Ear] - sorry everyone. That radar is commonly associated with shorter-ranged army systems like the SA-8, -9, -13, -15 and -19 and operates in the H/I band. Mk 36, Mk 49, Mk 50

I haven't extensively tested this however and I am just going by radar band. For later systems (e.g SA-1x, I would assume the later seekers would be better equipped for them, but I'm not sure when which was introduced).

EDIT 3: You can check the exact frequency that our radars are defined with, by checking the .lua definition for the unit, which can be found here - if you Ctrl+F for "Frequencies" it should take you to the appropriate line, note that the values appear to be in Hz.

As an example, here's the .lua for the SNR-75V of the S-75V, on line 81 you can see the frequencies defined range from 4.91×10⁹ - 5.09×10⁹ Hz (i.e. 4910 - 5090 MHz or 4.91 - 5.09 GHz), which is indeed in the G band as it should be and matches this). See this table for a list of what frequencies correspond to what bands (you're looking for new nomenclature).

Note that some units appear to have this undefined, the 9K35M3 Strela-10M3 [SA-13 Gopher] is one such example, some ships also don't have this defined (though some do).

Edited June 18, 2024 by Northstar98
Added addendum on how you can check what frequency is assigned to what radar).

[LizardKingYB]

@Northstar98Thx !

[PhantomHans]

10 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

Confirmed that the Mk 36 works against the SA-3. I've had consistent tone and consistent guidance... but only one hit. You have to pop up REAL close. I haven't got around to using loft yet.

 

 

You're getting hits?

I'm having a harder time dodging SA-3s than SA-6/8/10 lol.

 

Probably going to just abandon this and use MK82s or Mavericks.  I'm getting close enough to use bombs but if I try getting a Shrike to do it's thing I get wasted.

Edited May 27, 2024 by PhantomHans

[PhantomHans]

Invulnerable and unlimited ammo, coming in straight from 20,000 ft so I don't stop getting a good lock on me, 26 Shrikes to kill the SA-3 track radar. 

 

These are worthless trash right now.  They'll guide towards the general direction of the radar but them actually hitting it seems like a matter of luck.

Edited May 27, 2024 by PhantomHans

[LizardKingYB]

And in the table "mk 43" means 49, right?

[Schmidtfire]

Top priority should really be to fully implement WRCS AGM-45 since it’s the ”preferred” way of employing the Shike. Good to get the different seekers sorted, but we also need the ability to employ the missile properly.

 

[TacticalOni]

2 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

Top priority should really be to fully implement WRCS AGM-45 since it’s the ”preferred” way of employing the Shike. Good to get the different seekers sorted, but we also need the ability to employ the missile properly.

 

Well yes, but it would be prudent for them to work with reasonable consistency upon arrival

[SgtPappy]

12 hours ago, PhantomHans said:

You're getting hits?

I'm having a harder time dodging SA-3s than SA-6/8/10 lol.

 

Probably going to just abandon this and use MK82s or Mavericks.  I'm getting close enough to use bombs but if I try getting a Shrike to do it's thing I get wasted.

 

This was my third attempt and out of the 6 missiles fired, two did not fall short and one hit.

I have to try again today.

My strategy is to force the SA-3 missile into the ground and then pop up, force the next missile into the ground and repeat until I'm so close, I can smell them then I launch both shrikes and turn away with lots of chaff.

In real life, I doubt this would work since my understanding is that maybe the SA-3 prevents its missiles from colliding with the ground in some cases but then again, the real SA-2/3 missiles weren't as maneuverable and jammer pods worked very differently.

[PhantomHans]

56 minutes ago, SgtPappy said:

This was my third attempt and out of the 6 missiles fired, two did not fall short and one hit.

That's perhaps the most maddening part about this whole thing, the way the missiles guide.

 

I tried loading 4x and making my F4 invulnerable so I could keep a good radar signal and watch them home in.  Watching them randomly wander off and hit trucks and launchers is kinda...Yhea...

[PhantomHans]

Any idea if the AGM-45B will ever be an official part of the 4E module?

 

Played around with it unofficially and I think it's better.  It's actually hitting maybe 50/50 if I can keep a radar locked on me till impact.

[Mainstay]

Looking at the table @Northstar98 made (thank you!)

A loadout for true SEAD in a large frequency environment SA-- would consist a loadout as follows;

4xAGM-45

Missile 1 : MK24 Guidance unit

Missile 2 : MK36 Guidance unit

Missile 3 : MK37 Guidance unit

Missile 4 : MK50 Guidance unit

If i read everything correct this would provide me the widest spectrum to be able to engage SAM threats

[Northstar98]

41 minutes ago, Mainstay said:

Looking at the table @Northstar98 made (thank you!)

Please be careful with this table though - I’ve largely only matched seeker and radar bands generally, I cannot vouch for what seekers are actually compatible with what radar.

Seekers may only cover certain parts of bands which might differ from certain radars. Unfortunately the specific range of frequencies a particular radar operates at isn’t always available and sometimes even what band a radar operates at isn’t all that precise. Sometimes information is contradictory (and I’ve just realised I haven’t updated the forum post in accordance to a similar one I made on hoggit, so that needs fixing).

There’s also the possibility that some radars aren’t fully or properly configured (especially for systems that are composed of multiple radars combined into one vehicle).

Though if anyone finds that a particular seeker doesn’t work despite being indicated in the above list, I’m more than happy to make corrections.

Edited May 28, 2024 by Northstar98

[PhantomHans]

4 hours ago, Mainstay said:

Looking at the table @Northstar98 made (thank you!)

A loadout for true SEAD in a large frequency environment SA-- would consist a loadout as follows;

4xAGM-45

Missile 1 : MK24 Guidance unit

Missile 2 : MK36 Guidance unit

Missile 3 : MK37 Guidance unit

Missile 4 : MK50 Guidance unit

If i read everything correct this would provide me the widest spectrum to be able to engage SAM threats

I feel like you're gonna certainly need more than one per battery.  With the A model accuracy you're probably looking at 4x for the same radar tbh.

 

The B seems much more effective though. 

Edited May 28, 2024 by PhantomHans

[Argonat]

Does Loft with the Shrike indeed work the same way as Loft does with bombs?

If I set up the plane according to Loft and Shrikes (Weapon Selector = Arm, WRCS = Loft, pull up time, etc.) the Shrikes launch as soon as I press pickle instead of waiting for the parameters like it does with bombs.

I studied the documents I could find and learned that pull up tone is not available for Shrikes, which leads to the conclusion that launching Shrikes in Loft is more of a manual work than it is with bombs.

Is that correct?

[PhantomHans]

52 minutes ago, Argonat said:

Does Loft with the Shrike indeed work the same way as Loft does with bombs?

If I set up the plane according to Loft and Shrikes (Weapon Selector = Arm, WRCS = Loft, pull up time, etc.) the Shrikes launch as soon as I press pickle instead of waiting for the parameters like it does with bombs.

I studied the documents I could find and learned that pull up tone is not available for Shrikes, which leads to the conclusion that launching Shrikes in Loft is more of a manual work than it is with bombs.

Is that correct?

It sounds to me like "Loft" in a Shrike basically just tells the missile to cage the fins and go straight until it has passed a certain amount of altitude increase.  You shoot it upwards and after it's gone up a certain amount it'll start to guide.

Edited May 28, 2024 by PhantomHans

[Scooter556]

On 5/25/2024 at 9:45 AM, KlarSnow said:

As to the questions about shrike seeker bands and what they can/cannot see. If you look into the Lua files you can see the actual frequency ranges of the various threats and emitters, by comparing those to the shrike seeker bands that are presented in the seeker selection dialog you can start to parse together what each shrike seeker can/cannot see. The label for the seeker is what it was designed to target, but there can be other things that overlap the designed seeker band and may also be able to be tracked. This is what the chart above represents based on firing them. 

There could be and probably are bugs, but so far based on looking at the in game luas of what the target radars actual frequencies are, and firing them against matching seekers, it so far has matched exactly in my testing.

 

Do you know which LUA file in what folder specifically?

[Ramstein]

I really like this thread and the guides, links to all etc... but would like the addition of what actually needs to be loaded onto the aircraft so the components work properly. Often, tutorials, and guides show how to flip some switches, but not which pos are needed to run systems. It does get confusing and after spending hours still unsure what is needed...  IMHO

[doedkoett]

1 hour ago, Ramstein said:

I really like this thread and the guides, links to all etc... but would like the addition of what actually needs to be loaded onto the aircraft so the components work properly. Often, tutorials, and guides show how to flip some switches, but not which pos are needed to run systems. It does get confusing and after spending hours still unsure what is needed...  IMHO

You need to load the shrike missiles, obviously. Then you need to set them up with seekers according to the table above. If you load a mix of seekers, only activate the pylons with the same type of seekers at the same time. 
Also, I’d recommend that you equip the chaff dispensers and perhaps a jamming pod. 

[skywalker22]

5 hours ago, doedkoett said:

You need to load the shrike missiles, obviously. Then you need to set them up with seekers according to the table above. If you load a mix of seekers, only activate the pylons with the same type of seekers at the same time. 
Also, I’d recommend that you equip the chaff dispensers and perhaps a jamming pod. 

In that regard would be cool to have some kneeboard, on which would be visible which seekers are on each stations (specially in case if you cary 4 different ones). That kneeboard would have to be geneated automatically. 

[Viking 1-1]

Hmm...

I tried the Shrike with the 49 Mod 1 Seeker against a SA-8. I was in "Direct" and "Arm", Stations selected, Masterarm on, AG.

Even though the SA-8 fired at me with me pointing straight at the site I did not get any tone... (the lever in the back left corner was on full). Tried several attemps and switched bands but this didn´t work either.

 

[skywalker22]

Seems that none of the seekers work for STR SA-6 radar. Tried all of them, and both Mk-49 seekers got a high pitch tone, but do not attempt to follow to the source of SA-6.

 

Edited July 6, 2024 by skywalker22