What did I think of Kiowa? It needs to improve in some areas!

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

5 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

Thanks guys, very helpful. With a heavy heart I will not purchase the Kiowa yet. Drat and blast, I really was looking forward to it. Hopefully it’ll improve over time because it looks like a hell of a lot of fun.

thanks again

You're not losing out on much by waiting, to be fair. Keep it in mind, watch for sales, etc.

It's a lot of fun.

5 hours ago, BronzeYardNo11 said:

Polychop did a fantastic job with the FM (I forgive them after the Gazelle disaster lmao) I have very little complaints in that area.

Improvements I would suggest:

Better Sounds: Guns/Rockets/Rotor/Blade slap.

I want to hear a good "umph" when firing a rocket

Blade slap sounds are weak and too constant, blades are always slapping unless you are straight & level.

See Video for both weapons and rotor sounds: (Some excellent ear-candy)

 

 

They're on it. So, that's real good news.

[jww123]

Maybe I missed it- The statement from Polychop that this was the finished version of the module and that baring changes in the DCS core module no further changes or updates would be needed. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

My point is that Polychop has been working on this for years, and years that included a major economic downturn due to Covid. I gather they are a small company that does not perhaps have the resources of larger companies such as ED, resources that allow them to weather economic downturns. Maybe they could not afford to release this at a discounted price. Maybe they needed to sell the module at full price to keep improving this module and to support the Gazelle module. I don't have the Gazelle module but from what I have read it was pretty rough when released and was difficult to fly due to issues with the flight model but that Polychop has released updates that greatly improved the module. So it seems to me that if Polychop can stay in business we can expect them to continue to improve the Kiowa module and who knows, perhaps even in the future, release an AH-6/MH-6 module with "theoretical" avionics and weapons systems (because the AH-6 and MH-6 are still in active service with the 160th SOAR, using classified equipment).

This brings up the business aspect of flight sims and even more niche, military flight sims. Yes, computer gaming is a huge business with sales exceeding that of mainstream entertainment categories. But flight sims and military flight simes in particular are a miniscule part of the computer gaming industry. There just isn't the revenue from flight sims to match that of other genres. And do you think that civilian aviation sims would be at the level they are currently if it were not for the deep pockets of Microsoft? The way I see it, anything we can do to support Eagle Dynamics,  Polychop and the other companies producing the modules, the better our experience in DCS will be. Frankly I am surprised that DCS World is freeware and that, given the time and effort required to produce these aviation modules and maps, that they only cost 70 -80 dollars. I could easily see DCS World being a subscription software, charging 60-120 dollars per year and modules charging for non patch major upgrades.

When you think about it, all Polchop has done is to do away with a pre-release 20-30% discount. You don't get early access (unless you are a beta tester). When it is released at full price you have access to a module that still requires updates and upgrades. The fantastic looking F-4E Phantom from Heatblur is now on sales for it's full retail price, it was released 19 days ago.  And have you seen the amount of bug fixes and module improvements ( over 110 ) that came with the DCS update 5 days ago? What are you getting for your 15-20 dollar discount? Not early access, not a pre-patched version, you are just getting a small discount on a module that is not yet finished. 

What are the complaints about the OH-58D? The graphics could be improved? I guess, certainly compared to the photorealistic F-4E, but it could be improved in the future. Somewhat wonky sound? Yes, but the post from Polychop today re the partnership with Echo 19 sounds like upgraded audio will be released in the future. Damage modeling? I don't know about that, it seemed pretty good when I had a complete drivetrain failure requiring an (attempted) auto rotation after over torquing the helicopter. That seemed pretty sophisticated, though I can't say if that was accurately modeled as would have happened in real life. Airbags in the face when I set it down too hard? I was impressed. Flight model too easy? I can't judge that since I have never flown a helicopter in real life let alone an OH-58D. I will defer to Casmo on that, he walked the walk so I believe him when he talks the talk. Besides, given that our controls are not as in real life and that we lack the situational awareness as in real life, well perhaps compromises are unavoidable. I'm a rookie at flight sim helicopter pilot ( first flew Jane's Longbow in 1995 or 96 but had a long hiatus from flight sims as my career commitments left little time for anything as demanding as full fidelity flight sims such a Falcon 4.0 and then Falcon BMS and eventually DCS World. Having that perspective, starting PC flight sims in the early 1990's when you had to run them in MS-DOS and configure the PC using command line code to enable the PC to run the sim I am totally blown away with the flight sims we now have access to. Perhaps that is why I am not as bothered by these areas that can ( and likely will ) be improved.

I don't regret buying this module even at full price. Can it be improved? Of course, but is it finished enough to fly and fight? From what I have seen the answer is yes. So I will support this hobby of ours, paying full retail if necessary, it's in all our best interests to keep these companies in business. I would rather have an OH-58D module that may need some improvements than having no module at all. So yes, I will pay an extra 15-20 dollars to support our hobby.

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by jww123

[Digitalvole]

6 hours ago, Slippa said:

Just grab it Mr Vole, you know you wanna 

Mate, I owe you a beer. I did as you suggested (I’m not easily led, honest) and I’m very glad I did! Thanks mate

I’ve only tooled around for an hour or so with out any bindings, but can already tell this is gonna be a lot of fun. If the Apache makes you feel like you’re (trying to) fly a tank, this is like being a cheeky little chappy out to cause some mischief. Cracking stuff.

The performance in VR isn’t as great as I was hoping but better than the AH64 at least and who knows, may get better in time. Does anyone have any good book recommendations? I’m on my 6th re-read of chicken hawk and could do with some good helicopter book suggestions.

[Digitalvole]

17 minutes ago, jww123 said:

who knows, perhaps even in the future, release an AH-6/MH-6 module with "theoretical" avionics and weapons systems (because the AH-6 and MH-6 are still in active service with the 160th SOAR, using classified equipment).

God I’d love a “killer egg” module, that and typhoon or tempest mkV.

edit. Not sure how that ended up 2 posts

Edited June 10, 2024 by Digitalvole

[Slippa]

16 minutes ago, Digitalvole said:

Mate, I owe you a beer. I did as you suggested (I’m not easily led, honest) and I’m very glad I did! Thanks mate

 

No worries. Just needed a gentle nudge . Glad you're pleased with it .

I'm trying to bind buttons but keep swapping them out. I've got a Warthog HOTAS, an Xbox controller, keyboard, mouse, pedals and I'm threatening to try the stuff for the ipad but it's getting a bit OTT over here. Loads of bits to learn on this for me. Jets and Helis I have I've learnt to cold start, fly a bit and land-ish but haven't learnt the systems. Plenty on here to keep me busy.

My poor Spit and Mossie aint had a look-in lately, it's been the Loach, F-4 and this. Love that Loach too.

[dresoccer4]

3 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

There isn’t. It is a shimmer from the swithes that is in no way ruining the experience. I really hate the tendency some few loud ones in the community and their hostile approach in special after the Razbam vs ED dispute. Childish people buying a module and after two minutes calls it a robbery. 

 

ugh mate the only "childish" and "hostile" and "loud" person here in this thread is you. constantly name calling and being derogatory towards other customers, post after post after post. please just take a break from commenting, everyone will thank you. 

[kdfw]

this kw is a fantastic model.  flies well, system details are good, and vr performance is same as others.   

one thing that bothered me: the cockpit textures had too much shine for flat black surfaces, looked like the surfaces had glazed coating on them like a wet candy, which is probably more pronounced in vr.  and the chrome airbag valves 'glowing' in the shade just took away from the realism.

i reworked many of the textures and roughmet files to clean up the shine and inconsistencies in color and it looks good.  pilot skin textures also need to be de-saturated as they looked awfully pink...

love the fade in/out cyclic trim and ai implementation.

Edited June 10, 2024 by kdfw

[LuseKofte]

4 hours ago, ThorBrasil said:

 

 

I will let this man go. He has in fact made missions for it. In other words contributed. More than I has. 
I dl his missions and they are good 

He might have a point about the poly’s, but in my opinion they are of less importance. Because the things that counts are there and are simulated very well. 
I always forget that, we all are enthusiastic and devoted simmers. I think he want to improve this module. And I know a lot of modules that really can do with an updated texture. And I love those to death also. 
He just does it in a way that confuse people not to buy it. After spending all my available time on this chopper. I can say it is worth its money. But right now you are dependant at your own mission making skills and some you can down load. And I can recommend ThorBrasils missions. 

3 hours ago, Braunn said:

I don't get why t f you guys are so triggered for. Honestly. Just scroll past and quit tagging people just because you are triggered by something. I will buy it when I feel like buying it. How about that. 

 

Like you did now, I was just curious why you enter a topic with no interest for you and contribute to this negativity based on no knowledge what so ever

Edited June 10, 2024 by LuseKofte

[ThorBrasil]

15 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I will let this man go. He has in fact made missions for it. In other words contributed. More than I has. 
I dl his missions and they are good 

He might have a point about the poly’s, but in my opinion they are of less importance. Because the things that counts are there and are simulated very well. 
I always forget that, we all are enthusiastic and devoted simmers. I think he want to improve this module. And I know a lot of modules that really can do with an updated texture. And I love those to death also. 
He just does it in a way that confuse people not to buy it. After spending all my available time on this chopper. I can say it is worth its money. But right now you are dependant at your own mission making skills and some you can down load. And I can recommend ThorBrasils missions. 

Like you did now, I was just curious why you enter a topic with no interest for you and contribute to this negativity based on no knowledge what so ever

 

I don't want Kiowa to stop selling, but I want Polychop to stop deceiving its customers. I hope that in the future Kiowa will receive some love in 3D and textures. I want it to sell a lot.

This is the mission he refers to and I hope everyone likes it. I wish the best for DCS and third parties and that's why I always buy the modules whenever possible, but I hate being deceived. Producers have to be honest with their customers and only then would these topics not be created because the person accepted the terms at the time of purchase.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3338408/

 

[Retnek]

21 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

I don't want Kiowa to stop selling, but I want Polychop to stop deceiving its customers. ...

"deceiving" because of 3D-cosmetics and textures? Your "critics" lack arguments. Polychop, just go on, please. If the functions and procedures of the Kiowa have been completed, polished and updated twice, you might consider some face-lifting, too.

Edited June 10, 2024 by Retnek

[freehand]

Deceiving ? in what way. 

[Digitalvole]

2 hours ago, Slippa said:

No worries. Just needed a gentle nudge . Glad you're pleased with it .

It was all I needed, so thanks for giving it. I’ve found myself drawn to the choppers of late but I usually end my sessions with me in my Mk IX vs 2 K4s over my home town of Brighton. Then landing at Friston, just to keep my eye in. Can’t be beat.

4 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

You're not losing out on much by waiting, to be fair. Keep it in mind, watch for sales, etc.

It's a lot of fun.

I couldn’t wait, and you’re absolutely right, it is a lot of fun!

[ThorBrasil]

1 hour ago, Retnek said:

"deceiving" because of 3D-cosmetics and textures? Your "critics" lack arguments. Polychop, just go on, please. If the functions and procedures of the Kiowa have been completed, polished and updated twice, you might consider some face-lifting, too.

 

 

1 hour ago, freehand said:

Deceiving ? in what way. 

 

Full price for...
1 - Poorly detailed 3D model.
2 - Low resolution textures.
3 - Sounds, I don't even need to comment, but everyone already knows the condition and Polychop has promised to fix it.
4 - Systems, according to the manual there are many unimplemented features, but I prefer not to comment because it could be a limitation of the DCS engine.
5 - Lack of animation on the ammunition belt when firing the .50. The ammunition is static and does not travel through the ammunition belt.
6 - FM, I prefer not to comment because I don't have the knowledge to do this, but from what I've seen pilots commenting. The Kiowa can't take off with 4xHellfires and 100% fuel and in the DCS this is possible. You can even hover. Maybe it's a bug.
7 - Many bugs, but this is expected for any computer system.

With all these problems, Kiowa should be released in early access and not charge an absurd amount of 70 dollars as a "complete" module that looks more like a module from 10 years ago in DCS World.

[Gunfreak]

5 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

 

 

6 - FM, I prefer not to comment because I don't have the knowledge to do this, but from what I've seen pilots commenting. The Kiowa can't take off with 4xHellfires and 100% fuel and in the DCS this is possible. You can even hover. Maybe it's a bug.
 

Have they specified, in what conditions or always? Afghanistan is not a great helicopter country.  So if their main experience is in Afghanistan. That might not be valid at sea level.

[freehand]

1 hour ago, ThorBrasil said:

 

 

Full price for...
1 - Poorly detailed 3D model.
2 - Low resolution textures.
3 - Sounds, I don't even need to comment, but everyone already knows the condition and Polychop has promised to fix it.
4 - Systems, according to the manual there are many unimplemented features, but I prefer not to comment because it could be a limitation of the DCS engine.
5 - Lack of animation on the ammunition belt when firing the .50. The ammunition is static and does not travel through the ammunition belt.
6 - FM, I prefer not to comment because I don't have the knowledge to do this, but from what I've seen pilots commenting. The Kiowa can't take off with 4xHellfires and 100% fuel and in the DCS this is possible. You can even hover. Maybe it's a bug.
7 - Many bugs, but this is expected for any computer system.

With all these problems, Kiowa should be released in early access and not charge an absurd amount of 70 dollars as a "complete" module that looks more like a module from 10 years ago in DCS World.

I see, you had a refund then or is that not possible for you ?

Edited June 10, 2024 by freehand

[ThorBrasil]

7 minutes ago, freehand said:

I see, you had a refund then or is that not possible for you ?

 

I don't want a refund because I like Kiowa, but I would love a future update that would bring Kiowa up to par with recent modules. I don't think that will happen and I would really like to be wrong and see Polychop correct everything I've said here.

[todd022]

This is the most toxic thread... 

[ThorBrasil]

5 minutes ago, todd022 said:

This is the most toxic thread... 

The problem with the world is that people want to hide the truth. There is only one truth and we can never run away from it. You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. People can't argue back and come up with ready-made words...

"They're crybabies" or "Everyone is toxic" and many other ready-made phrases.

[Gizzy]

Just got the Kiowa.... I have bought all of the helos on original release (I have been around too long) and Kiowa is great in all respects for the price.  PC are a small concern and IMHO  did well to weather the S*******m of the initial Gazelle FM, fix that and produce the Kiowa..... Sven's baby.  As Nick of ED said they cannot financially produce a new model without an early release cash injection to finalise the model so Sven and polychop I congratulate you,  Sure, things may need tidied some but that's expected, but overall a great release lads, thanks.... and yes The Gazelle is a joy now to fly....

Discussion, disagreement, opinion sensibly engaged are all healthy and good.... Currently the sad thing about ED forums and other Discords is the number of juveniles spewing nonsense anomalously from their keyboards... many create new accounts just for this purpose... sure look at Razbam's threads, many should not have been let out of baby care unsupervised... 

[freehand]

I just looked at prickly hedgehogs vid he said it looks amazing such a difference in opinions very strange. 

[Digitalvole]

Just incase anyone is interested, had another go in the Kiowa when I got back in this evening. This time I turned off turbo mode in oxrtk so I could look at my cpu and gpu frame times.

Taking off from the same spot and flying the same route, the gpu & cpu frame times for the Kiowa and Apache were almost the same, with the Kiowa slightly lower by 1 - 0.5 ms  (though the cpu seemed more busy at times than the Apache.) 

This was surprising to a simpleton such as myself with zero knowledge on how you make flight sims, and I hope (is it possible?) that with updates the performance improves. Just thought I’d leave this here incase anyone, like i was, is wondering.

Still great fun to fly though.
 

 

[LuseKofte]

28 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

The problem with the world is that people want to hide the truth

You are overly dramatic about some poly’s you do not agree with. 
I on the other hand bought a solid piece of software. 

Edited June 10, 2024 by LuseKofte

[Dangerzone]

11 hours ago, ThorBrasil said:

 

 

Full price for...
1 - Poorly detailed 3D model.
2 - Low resolution textures.
3 - Sounds, I don't even need to comment, but everyone already knows the condition and Polychop has promised to fix it.
4 - Systems, according to the manual there are many unimplemented features, but I prefer not to comment because it could be a limitation of the DCS engine.
5 - Lack of animation on the ammunition belt when firing the .50. The ammunition is static and does not travel through the ammunition belt.
6 - FM, I prefer not to comment because I don't have the knowledge to do this, but from what I've seen pilots commenting. The Kiowa can't take off with 4xHellfires and 100% fuel and in the DCS this is possible. You can even hover. Maybe it's a bug.
7 - Many bugs, but this is expected for any computer system.

 

Accusing PC of deception is a serious accusation. A company not meeting your expectations is not deception.

The irony is - out of all this - it's content in your posts that come across as being deceptive.

Accusing PC of deception when they haven't been. Or acting surprised and victimised after buying, when you posted and knew these issues existed prior to sale - those would be far closer to meeting the definition of deception, than someone not releasing a product that doesn't live up to your standards. 

This whole drama reminds me of a soccer player way over reacting from a small brush that they knew was coming - falling down hugging his arm or leg on the ground as if they're in so much pain crying out foul and violence when there was none. It really is overly dramatic. 

All that has occurred here is that your expectations and standards are far higher than ED's. And that's fine. You have a right to be disappointed. That's truly unfortunate. Everyone has different expectations and reviews can show that. But - ED gave their stamp of approval for the current model being full price, and for it being released in it's current state. There's been tones of video's prior. You were aware of these issues prior. There is no deception by PC, no coverup. There is just your expectations, and that polychop and ED failed to meet your expectations. So, you disagree with the price vs the quality you view. You have a different view on what EA vs non-EA means compared to ED. (Although I find it strange that your focus - which borders on obsession is at PC, and not ED really - given ED are the gatekeepers in all this).  That's OK - that doesn't mean they're being deceptive. 

Do you go down to the local furniture shop, see a TV that's priced too much and yell "This business is being deceptive?" because the price is too high for the quality? At that price it should be 4K, not HD? No - that'd be silly. But that's what it appears you're doing here with the accusations made about polychop's character. There was no pre-order on this product where they didn't deliver what they originally announced and you paid for it before release. You could see what you were getting from the video's. You could have waited 24hrs to see what was released. 

No one is trying to hide the truth here, as you falsely accuse us of. The accusations about this being a toxic thread is sadly accurate. It's got nothing to do with the quality of the module, nor even the differences between your expectations and others, but the content of posts that respond or attack people that disagree as 'hiding the truth'. 

 

11 hours ago, ThorBrasil said:

With all these problems, Kiowa should be released in early access and not charge an absurd amount of 70 dollars as a "complete" module that looks more like a module from 10 years ago in DCS World.

That's your opinion - which you're entitled to. But that doesn't make them deceptive.

The atmosphere of this thread really needs to change directions. At present, it just seems a small group of people are rushing to a housefire to throw gasoline on it instead of water, while others are trying to bring reason to the table. Maybe some people are just getting kicks out of drama? I don't know. With DCS going through so much at the moment in other areas, it'd be really nice to see cooler heads prevail and the community head towards unity instead of division and us to be able to discuss things, and even disagree amicably and get back to constructive criticism instead of false accusations. 

Edited June 11, 2024 by Dangerzone

[RealDCSpilot]

Textures, especially the normal maps are only at 30% where they should be in 2024. The whole 3D model looks more like something that would be used as an AI object in a game.
The Apache is simply state-of-the-art. It demonstrates up-to-date texturing artist craftmanship.

Edited June 11, 2024 by RealDCSpilot

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

6 hours ago, ThorBrasil said:

The problem with the world is that people want to hide the truth. There is only one truth and we can never run away from it. You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. People can't argue back and come up with ready-made words...

"They're crybabies" or "Everyone is toxic" and many other ready-made phrases.

Hide the truth? Bro, you're getting push back, that's how it goes.