What did I think of Kiowa? It needs to improve in some areas!

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

The Kiowa taking off and hovering with 100% fuel and 4 Hellfires is not possible on the real aircraft, and even the developers stated that it does not do this on their discord.

On this specific issue, I don't personally see it as a problem.  To my understanding that is not a load-out that the real aircraft uses -- I don't think developer energy should be spent making realistic physics for an unrealistic loadout (any more than I want them tuning the flight model to accurately simulate what would happen if you duct taped AIM-54s to a Kiowa).  IMO it's only a problem to the extent that it reveals larger problems in the flight model with realistic load oats.  Which it may or may not, but I don't have evidence of that at this time. And if there are larger problems I'm reasonably confident that the developers will fix them

[ThorBrasil]

3 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

On this specific issue, I don't personally see it as a problem.  To my understanding that is not a load-out that the real aircraft uses -- I don't think developer energy should be spent making realistic physics for an unrealistic loadout (any more than I want them tuning the flight model to accurately simulate what would happen if you duct taped AIM-54s to a Kiowa).  IMO it's only a problem to the extent that it reveals larger problems in the flight model with realistic load oats.  Which it may or may not, but I don't have evidence of that at this time. And if there are larger problems I'm reasonably confident that the developers will fix them

Funny! I thought the DCS was all about realism! What a thing!

[Guest]

Just now, ThorBrasil said:

Funny! I thought the DCS was all about realism! What a thing!

It generally is.  How does it improve realism to tweak physics to realistically represent a completely fantasy loadout?

[ThorBrasil]

4 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

It generally is.  How does it improve realism to tweak physics to realistically represent a completely fantasy loadout?

My God!

[Esac_mirmidon]

#20.

Just another 18 pages more.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

My God!

I'm not sure how to respond to that, but OK.  Anyway, IMO in this specific case the better solution is not for Polychop to change the flight model (assuming it's otherwise correct) but instead to prevent 4 Hellfires from being loaded. But since I can simply choose not to load 4 Hellfires it's a pretty low priority fix.

[ThorBrasil]

13 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

I'm not sure how to respond to that, but OK.  Anyway, IMO in this specific case the better solution is not for Polychop to change the flight model (assuming it's otherwise correct) but instead to prevent 4 Hellfires from being loaded. But since I can simply choose not to load 4 Hellfires it's a pretty low priority fix.

Dude! DCS is known for its fantastic realism in its modules. That's exactly what makes it so unique. Most people who look for the ED platform are looking for it because of that. Its realism! So! You're suggesting that Kiowa should run away from this proposal and that's not right. You can go to this ED link and see the meaning of the terms that make DCS unique! It's called PFM! https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/general/#1512209

[Guest]

Just now, ThorBrasil said:

Dude! DCS is known for its fantastic realism in its modules. That's exactly what makes it so unique. Most people who look for the ED platform are looking for it because of that. Its realism! So! You're suggesting that Kiowa should run away from this proposal and that's not right. You can go to this ED link and see the meaning of the terms that make DCS unique! It's called PFM! https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/general/#1512209

I’m not in any way running away from realism — 100% support it.  I think allowing the Kiowa to fly with an unrealistic loadout makes it MORE unrealistic not less.  IMO the correct way to improve realism to limit the aircraft to conditions that the aircraft can actually operate it.  Not create a flight model for completely fictitious conditions.  For the same reason I don’t want them to make the flight model work underwater or on Mars, because the Kiowa doesn’t go there.  

And not to be pedantic, but it’s actually called EFM. My understanding is PFM is the flight model accessible only by ED, whereas third parties use the EFM.  

[NeedzWD40]

5 hours ago, ThorBrasil said:

The Kiowa taking off and hovering with 100% fuel and 4 Hellfires is not possible on the real aircraft, and even the developers stated that it does not do this on their discord.

 

I think there might be a bit too much power or lift that is enabling much greater performance than possible. At certain conditions we might be able to do 100% and 4xAGM-114, but that's an incredibly limited envelope. I can get the aircraft to hover IGE at a gross weight of about 6200lbs from an altitude of ~7200ft at FAT +4C. That exceeds even the 407's capabilities in the same conditions. On the other hand, bump up the FAT to +30C and you'll rapidly run into a wall with 100% + 4xAGM-114, settling in at about 3ft AGL. So some curves probably need to be tweaked in the parameters, if they haven't already and we're just waiting for an update.

5 hours ago, wombat778 said:

Anyway, IMO in this specific case the better solution is not for Polychop to change the flight model (assuming it's otherwise correct) but instead to prevent 4 Hellfires from being loaded. But since I can simply choose not to load 4 Hellfires it's a pretty low priority fix.

Better to just cut gas in half because 4xAGM-114 was/is a valid loadout. It wasn't widely used for a variety of reasons, like not enough M272s available or Apaches were around to handle that heavy tasking, but it was certainly possible to do and was an authorized config. The M296 with a full load of ammo was heavier than a pair of 114s, so you could be overweight with 100% + 296 and 2xAGM-114. The M3 gets close but is a couple pounds lighter.

Edited September 2, 2024 by NeedzWD40

[ThorBrasil]

6 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

I think there might be a bit too much power or lift that is enabling much greater performance than possible. At certain conditions we might be able to do 100% and 4xAGM-114, but that's an incredibly limited envelope. I can get the aircraft to hover IGE at a gross weight of about 6200lbs from an altitude of ~7200lbs at FAT +4C. That exceeds even the 407's capabilities in the same conditions. On the other hand, bump up the FAT to +30C and you'll rapidly run into a wall with 100% + 4xAGM-114, settling in at about 3ft AGL. So some curves probably need to be tweaked in the parameters, if they haven't already and we're just waiting for an update.

Better to just cut gas in half because 4xAGM-114 was/is a valid loadout. It wasn't widely used for a variety of reasons, like not enough M272s available or Apaches were around to handle that heavy tasking, but it was certainly possible to do and was an authorized config. The M296 with a full load of ammo was heavier than a pair of 114s, so you could be overweight with 100% + 296 and 2xAGM-114. The M3 gets close but is a couple pounds lighter.

Thanks for the most accurate information! I loved your Nick. Very creative! 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, NeedzWD40 said:

I think there might be a bit too much power or lift that is enabling much greater performance than possible. At certain conditions we might be able to do 100% and 4xAGM-114, but that's an incredibly limited envelope. I can get the aircraft to hover IGE at a gross weight of about 6200lbs from an altitude of ~7200lbs at FAT +4C. That exceeds even the 407's capabilities in the same conditions. On the other hand, bump up the FAT to +30C and you'll rapidly run into a wall with 100% + 4xAGM-114, settling in at about 3ft AGL. So some curves probably need to be tweaked in the parameters, if they haven't already and we're just waiting for an update.

Better to just cut gas in half because 4xAGM-114 was/is a valid loadout. It wasn't widely used for a variety of reasons, like not enough M272s available or Apaches were around to handle that heavy tasking, but it was certainly possible to do and was an authorized config. The M296 with a full load of ammo was heavier than a pair of 114s, so you could be overweight with 100% + 296 and 2xAGM-114. The M3 gets close but is a couple pounds lighter.

Good point. Basically it shouldn’t let you choose a combination of fuel and ordinance that the real bird can’t use.  And agreed that curves probably need some tweaking.  I’m pretty sure the developers will (and if they don’t I’ll be disappointed)

[RealDCSpilot]

On 8/31/2024 at 7:53 PM, wombat778 said:

lol, ok. I am a lawyer so I tend to use very precise language that sometimes might not be easily understood by some people.  But it’s really not complicated — there are only two points:

1) not everyone prioritizes graphics like you (and others) do, and Polychop catering to people like me doesn’t mean they are wrong and that the product is bad/broken/needs to be fixed — just that it’s development priorities don’t match yours  

2) claiming that Polychop “needs” to include more eye candy in order to compete with other modules is silly, because other modules don’t simulate the OH-58.  For people like me who are specifically interested in the OH-58, talking about how much better the F-4e etc are is kinda pointless because those other modules don’t do the one thing I want most — simulate the OH-58!  

Let me know which of those points you are having difficulty understanding and I’ll be happy to clarify.  
 

Oh, i have no trouble understanding what you are trying. Only the info that you are in lawyer mode makes a bit more sense now. Looks like you are often in a situation where you have to create justifications out of alternate realities to try to defend a guilty defendant. Desperate measures as a last try to convince some simpler minds in the jury when the evidence is already telling the truth?

But your two "precise" points show that you actually don't understand the core of the problem. It's not about eye candy. It's how 3D graphics are made the right way from start to finish. The way how the Kiowa is made and sold - IS NOT HOW WE WORK. Let me try to find another analogy which describes the situation better:

Let's say you want to give your car a new paint job. In your town you have two options, both offer the same price for the job. Shop A simply takes your car, a couple of spray cans and let it dry in the backyard. Shop B goes through all the needed surface preparation, sealing parts that don't have to get paint, grind off the old paint, deep cleaning each surface, prepare the right amount of color and give a good amount of stirring to make sure that the end result has a consistent color tone, use a sealed cabin for the actual process and drying, do polishing at the end to finish the job.
Well, you chose Shop A, your neighbors try to tell you that something went pretty wrong there, but you try to tell everyone that you like the "spray can" look.
I think the majority of people looking at this thread do have a sense for quality and know what state of product they want. It's common sense.
And it's no coincidence that there are certain aspects wrong again with a module from a 3rd party dev that sold a helicopter module that had no flight model for 7 years. PC needed a long time to learn one important lesson, unfortunately we need to get to the next lessons (graphics, sound ...).

Edited September 2, 2024 by RealDCSpilot

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

Oh, i have no trouble understanding what you are trying. Only the info that you are in lawyer mode makes a bit more sense now. Looks like you are often in a situation where you have to create justifications out of alternate realities to try to defend a guilty defendant. Desperate measures as last try to convince some simpler minds in the jury when the evidence is already telling the truth?

 

Now it's my turn to have no idea what you are talking about. I've reread this several times, and I don't know what you are trying to say.  Anyway, I'm a corporate lawyer so I don't do any of that stuff lol.

I do very much understand the issues, and agree that the visuals aren't up to the level of other modules.  But I also do not care at all, because I do not ever look at those visuals.  So your analogy doesn't really work -- first off, I am not saying I "like the 'spray can' look."  I'm saying I legit don't care at all about it.  I don't care if the external visuals don't exist at all. A better analogy is that I’m going to my car exclusively for off-roading and it’s going to be covered in mud and scrapes etc so the paint is totally irrelevant and I don’t want the car shop to waste any time or money on it  

I respect that I you and others care about them and have a problem with what Polychop has done.  And I 100% support your right to complain about it and advocate for them to change it.  I just don't share your concern, think the visuals are perfectly adequate for my needs, and would prefer they focus on other things instead. And I do not understand why me having a different opinion than you seems to upset you so much.  

Edited September 2, 2024 by wombat778

[RealDCSpilot]

Craft is not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of attitude. And PC's attitude makes me upset since 2016. From all 43 modules i own, why does PC always need to stand out with such avoidable issues?

[Guille H. Mono]

20 page summary:

The person who started the thread What did I think of Kiowa? It needs to improve in some areas! ended up recommending the ch-47f over the kiowa.

 

[Hiob]

8 minutes ago, Guille H. Mono said:

20 page summary:

The person who started the thread What did I think of Kiowa? It needs to improve in some areas! ended up recommending the ch-47f over the kiowa.

 

I just try to imagine to go on a night hunt for insurgents with a Chinook....

Something doesn't add up 

[ThorBrasil]

2 hours ago, Hiob said:

I just try to imagine to go on a night hunt for insurgents with a Chinook....

Something doesn't add up 

It's very simple! Just transport an elite troop to the location and they will do the work of eliminating the insurgents and the Chinook has side weapons to provide support.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

Craft is not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of attitude. And PC's attitude makes me upset since 2016. From all 43 modules i own, why does PC always need to stand out with such avoidable issues?

Cool.  Ngl, I don’t really care about “craft.”  I want a product that does what I need it to do. Other than extreme cases (child labor, toxic chemicals, etc) I’m not really interested in how it’s made or the attitude of the maker.  This is a piece of entertainment software not an heirloom musical instrument.

Anyway, it’s clear we have different perspectives. I think I’ve clearly explained mine.  And I also think understand yours, and it’s totally valid . 

[dresoccer4]

On 9/2/2024 at 7:22 AM, wombat778 said:

Cool.  Ngl, I don’t really care about “craft.”  I want a product that does what I need it to do. Other than extreme cases (child labor, toxic chemicals, etc) I’m not really interested in how it’s made or the attitude of the maker.  This is a piece of entertainment software not an heirloom musical instrument.

Anyway, it’s clear we have different perspectives. I think I’ve clearly explained mine.  And I also think understand yours, and it’s totally valid . 

dude, you need to step away from the forums. it's just pages and pages of you arguing every single person for no reason. i'm genuinely worried about you at this point

[freehand]

1 hour ago, dresoccer4 said:

dude, you need to step away from the forums. it's just pages and pages of you arguing every single person for no reason. i'm genuinely worried about you at this point

For example ? All I see here is his opinion.

Edited September 4, 2024 by freehand

[LorenLuke]

2 hours ago, freehand said:

For example ? All I see here is his opinion.

It's less about seeing someone's opinion, as much as it is seeing it, expressed repeatedly, unchanging, over a prolonged period of time, in the same space, with each subsequent iteration deviating in no way from the original in terms of form or content, including in response to varied feedback and points addressed in peeps new ways.

[freehand]

51 minutes ago, LorenLuke said:

It's less about seeing someone's opinion, as much as it is seeing it, expressed repeatedly, unchanging, over a prolonged period of time, in the same space, with each subsequent iteration deviating in no way from the original in terms of form or content, including in response to varied feedback and points addressed in peeps new ways.

Like the thread itself.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, dresoccer4 said:

dude, you need to step away from the forums. it's just pages and pages of you arguing every single person for no reason. i'm genuinely worried about you at this point

When someone writes something specifically directed at me, I generally will respond to it.  It's common courtesy IMHO, and pretty straightforward to understand.  For example, I was very happy to leave this thread --and did for days -- until you replied directly to me.  Anyway, I appreciate your concern, but Im fine thanks!

EDIT: Anyway, if you care to actually follow the posts, you will see that my first post (on page 18) was when I gave my apparently unpopular opinion that visuals aren't important to me and that there are different kinds of players and different kinds of products. Since then, I believe that every post I have made has been a direct response to people challenging me for holding the opinion that I do (other than one regarding physics, which while not a direct response was to the same person that had made the identical point to me in a prior post).  As far as I know, at no point have I been impolite, disparaging, or suggested that anyone else's opinions are invalid. I believe I’ve treated everyone with respect even in response to posts that were clearly designed to be rude or personally insulting.  And yes, I have repeatedly reasserted my opinion in response to people pointing out pretty screenshots, using strawman arguments, posing hypotheticals, making bombastic statements, etc to try to convince me that my opinion is wrong. I'm sorry you view that as "arguing every single person for no reason."  But I think if you try to carefully read the post history with an open mind you might see things from my perspective...

Edited September 4, 2024 by wombat778

[Guest]

19 hours ago, dresoccer4 said:

dude, you need to step away from the forums. it's just pages and pages of you arguing every single person for no reason. i'm genuinely worried about you at this point

After thinking about this more, I've realized that this is really not a fun place to be anymore.  I've been around discussion forums like this for nearly 30 years, and I've always viewed them as a place that I could learn from and share perspectives (sometimes in a spirited but always respectful way!) with people I consider as friends, regardless of whether I disagree with them.   But things seem to have become so much more negative where it's not enough to just disagree -- the new trend seems to be to shame, insult and bully people with unpopular opinions into being quiet.  I've seen that happen to ThorBrasil in this very thread (while I may not agree with his views, I 100% support his right to state them and I think it's awesome that there is a place for him to share them freely).  I've also been very disappointed with the similar things said to other unpopular posters in other threads.  TBH, a big reason I come here is specifically to hear from people I disagree with, because that's how I learn and grow.  

dresoccer4 -- thank you, you and others have helped me realized that it's time to step away from these forums permanently (cue celebration from many of you I'm sure). Times have changed, and it's clear there is no longer a place in them for me.  Best of luck to you all!

[RealDCSpilot]

And now playing the drama card, sheesh... What @dresoccer4 meant is to step away to get some distance to the point you are circling around here. The thread is about technical issues on the whole bandwidth of a product and you are trying to tell us that same price range but much lower quality doesn't matter for a customer. There is nothing else you did contribute, but blowing up the thread with the same personal stuff all over again and again.