Black Shark Air to Air

[Ginsu80]

So I was reading a post here somewhere, and someone complained about getting eaten alive by Hinds in Air to Air on a mission, so I decided to run a little test. I set up several engagments with various weapons loadouts for both friend and foe. From an even position with 10k of distance I was able to come out on top with a 4 to 1 disadvantage using guns only. From a position where the enemy had the advantage and a distance of 3k or greater it was about 2 to 1 with guns only. Closer than that and it was a 1 to 1 knife fight. If I could swing around and lock him up with the Shkval quickly I could win, if I had trouble locking him up, toast. Adding missles to the mix gave me an even greater advantage if I had at least 7k of distance. I went head to head with a flight of 5 Hinds and came out on top. The Vikhr works fairly nicely in A to A. I even managed to dodge an AT-6 spiral. Here is what I found.

 

First, set the laser to standby and the engagement mode to AA. Believe it or not it makes it much easier to lock up an airborne target.

 

The HMS is your friend, especially if you have Trackir or something similar. Bring up the HMS, and all you have to do is look where the target is coming from. Keep your zoom out a bit so you can see the Shkval screen and make adjustments on the fly.

 

I actually had better effects with the tracking gates a little bigger than with ground targets. Ussually for ground I keep them small, but here I found it easier to get a lock if they were a little bigger.

 

Make sure your laser is lasing before you fire. You should see TA and the range should be changing, unles of course your not closing with your target. But normally the number will change. Just tapping the lock button quickly well reset the laser, but not cause you to lose your lock, unless there is a ton of movement relative to the target or he goes outside the Shkval FOV.

 

Your gun is bigger and badder, use it. Ever wonder why some guns have long barrels and some don't? The longer the barrel, the more muzzle velocity for a weapon of similar caliber, what this means to you is your rounds will travel farther, and hit harder at a longer range so use that advantage. I found a Hind wouldn't open up on me until he was within 1.5k to 1k. While I could score hits from 2.5k to 3k depending on the deflection. I scored a kill on a hind from 2k with both helicopters moving like bats out of hell from 90 degrees off his wing. Only took 2 bursts. Which leads me to the next point.

 

Remember your gun hits harder. The Hind is known as a flying tank. But your gun is meant to kill actual tanks. Ok well APCs and light armor. But those don't fly, and have more armor. The times I was killed it took 4 to 6 bursts connecting from the Hinds gun to kill me. Ussually 2 or 3 solid bursts did him in.

 

Lastly if you see a burst connecting, and your target starts to fall like a stone, don't fall for it. He's probably just manuevering, he isn't dead. This one caught me a couple time before I figured it out. How do you know he's a lawn dart? Flames, or a big explosion. Otherwise keep him in the Shkval FOV so you don't lose your lock and keep on him.

 

Ok so this isn't a very technical entry, not a whole lot on tactics. But it was much easier than I expected. Sometimes I have a hard time getting the Shkval to lock up a truck, so I expected to have a heck of a time with a fast moving airborne target. But the KA-50 computed distance and lead on airborne targets. The Vikhr worked like a charm I couldn't get it to miss. The only thing I didn't try with it was a firing 90 off a targets wing, but even if the target was jinking I got hits. Next up, Black Shark vs Fast Movers.

[topol-m]

Ginsu80, thanks for your efforts man. A nice testing and useful info.

[McVittees]

Try taking on Apaches - now they eat you up! Hinds aren't so scarey... ;)

[Safari Ken]

I've found the same thing with the A2A. It can take a couple tries to lock the thing up, but it's not as hard as one would think (the hardest part for me is actually figuring out if it's a friendly or enemy). A few times I've even forgotten to swtich to the A2A mode on the targeting panel, but it didn't seem to make too much difference. Shooting down an enemy chopper is quite the rush, I might add.

 

Now, bring on those A10's! :gun_smilie:

[PeterP]

The HMS is your friend, especially if you have Trackir or something similar. Bring up the HMS, and all you have to do is look where the target is coming from. Keep your zoom out a bit so you can see the Shkval screen and make adjustments on the fly.

 

Thanks, great post!

 

I would like to add that holding down the "o" button/key (Uncage SHKVAL, designate target) while trying to get a lock will make things much easier for you. When you hold it down wilhe aligning to the target the camera will follow your head movments.

[Ginsu80]

Whew, Apaches ARE beasts. Hellfires especially. But there is a secret. Bank one way, and kick opposite rudder to put your into a side slip. At about 1.5 k Bank over really hard, almost 90 degrees, if your timing is good you ought to be ok. Oh, and the Vikhr is faster than a hellfire, so if you both launch at the same time your missle will hit first, if it kills him the hellfire will lose lock. Just be sure it kills him. Every Vikhr I had against a Hind was a one shot deal, I had two Apaches survive Vikhrs, two didn't. 50 50 though the sample is small. The Apaches gun is far deadlier than the Hinds but you still have range, or should. Forget AP ammo, I tried it on one run and I didn't think I was hitting, got killed and F2ed to see the Apache, who was all chewed up. But still flying. Same run again with HE rounds, toasted no problem.

[Skydoc]

Cobras with TOWs had been hurting me quite often. Now I just stay in the weeds or put a hill between me and their likely approaches to avoid them.

 

In addition to the AA button, there is the early detonation button for the Viikhr missle (forget the name but it is on the same panel as AA) which I usually turn on to ensure lots of fragments flying to the target, especially in zero aspect angle engagement.

[Henchman14]

Little late, but wanted to add, setting vhicker to aerial target (shotgun blast) doesn't work against Apache. You need armor piercing.

[Presing]

... Now, bring on those A10's! :gun_smilie:

 

Picture taken on online by =SE=Vecko.

[159th_Viper]

I do not want to be a Kamov pilot in an A10C/Kamov environment.......:pain:

[BKLronin]

I do not want to be a Kamov pilot in an A10C/Kamov environment.......:pain:

 

Well I´d enjoy it when flying coop. Killing one tank after another whille the A10C dudes are fiddling around with theire "super duper" avionics to get any of their weapons released :P

 

From an A to A view of course I would stay at the farp.

[Yuya6104]

Try taking on Apaches - now they eat you up! Hinds aren't so scarey... ;)

 

me do not find apace be scarey to the hind or KA-50

 

me try explain my poor english

 

Apache has 2 crew the hind has 2 crew KA-50 has 1 crew

 

apache less speed less manuverable but not as heavily armored like the hind weighting about 12000kg on take off but fully loaded with wapons an trrops maybe weight more manuverabilty slightly poor but what makes hind so scary that comes at you out no where screaming at with its loud an powerful engines an blades choping loud in air and fireing all its weapons at you..

 

that is scary...

 

Apache diffeant is ment sit away from the battle if needed or be at front support troops on ground the engines on it are not so nosily so cant hear it even rotors blades abit less nosiey so consider it be more stealthy plane advoid a gun fight or a air battle...

 

KA-50 is a very nosiy with its rotors so engines but its as heavily armored go behind enemy lines an back an made be shot at by AA fire an small arms an rocket grades same as the hind..

 

KA-50 has agility do impossible manuvers that is hard on regulare helicopter gunships giving it a edage only downfall is its side cannon but that might change on for new KA-52 model not decided with Kamov testing..

 

well far me go with my poor english..

 

but must say the Hind is a very dangerous an scary machine go up aginst as well the KA-50 if have skilled pilots in them be scarest thing ever want to meet head on at you..

[power5]

[ATTACH]46128[/ATTACH]

 

Picture taken on online by =SE=Vecko.

 

His gear is down, did you shoot him down on landing approach? :music_whistling:

 

me do not find apace be scarey to the hind or KA-50

 

Apache diffeant is ment sit away from the battle if needed or be at front support troops on ground the engines on it are not so nosily so cant hear it even rotors blades abit less nosiey so consider it be more stealthy plane advoid a gun fight or a air battle...

 

KA-50 is a very nosiy with its rotors so engines but its as heavily armored go behind enemy lines an back an made be shot at by AA fire an small arms an rocket grades same as the hind..

 

KA-50 has agility do impossible manuvers that is hard on regulare helicopter gunships giving it a edage only downfall is its side cannon but that might change on for new KA-52 model not decided with Kamov testing..

.

 

Apache has radar. Ka50 and Hind do not. Huge advantage for the Apache. The longbow has a much nicer sensor suite for protection and detection.

 

Noise is not an issue in a2a encounters. You will not hear a hind coming unless he is flying over top of you.

 

All the armor does for a chopper is keep it from falling out of the sky immediately. You will not be very combat effective after the enemies first salvo. You will be lucky if he loses you and you can sneak out of the combat area.

 

I tend to lock my cannon on the boresite and maneuver for a firing solution in the typical dogfight manner. I do not have track IR though so flying while trying to mouse look the HMS sight around does not work so well.

[Yuya6104]

His gear is down, did you shoot him down on landing approach? :music_whistling:

 

 

 

Apache has radar. Ka50 and Hind do not. Huge advantage for the Apache. The longbow has a much nicer sensor suite for protection and detection.

 

Noise is not an issue in a2a encounters. You will not hear a hind coming unless he is flying over top of you.

 

All the armor does for a chopper is keep it from falling out of the sky immediately. You will not be very combat effective after the enemies first salvo. You will be lucky if he loses you and you can sneak out of the combat area.

 

I tend to lock my cannon on the boresite and maneuver for a firing solution in the typical dogfight manner. I do not have track IR though so flying while trying to mouse look the HMS sight around does not work so well.

 

ok so you talkingg about D model not the A or D model without radar...

 

D with radar has the advange yes then hind or KA-50 be at a disadvange but there a wld card too this approch to the D apache the Mi-28N has a radar to twice the ablity an hevaily armored around entire helicopter an has radar too the Mi-28N designed in front an behind lines and be shot at by AA an small arms an rocket garades...

 

but thing is that appache never saw air to air in its life an appache an KA-50 an Mi-24 an Mi-28 never really went head to head an will never really know what would we la...

 

there is no better its like greek myth...only way actually see air to air if america an russia went war but thing is not happen cause america not want fight Russia an china two supporting countrys as well as vietnam an north korea an india... all are old soviet buddys that still get there weapons from Russia..

 

anyway that be next 3rd world war...

Edited January 4, 2011 by Yuya6104

[Boberro]

I do not want to be a Kamov pilot in an A10C/Kamov environment.......:pain:

 

You mean and want to say you don't want to be famous as Hog's killer and all in all you are modest :D

[GGTharos]

ok so you talkingg about D model not the A or D model without radar...

 

D with radar has the advange yes then hind or KA-50 be at a disadvange but there a wld card too this approch to the D apache the Mi-28N has a radar to twice the ablity an hevaily armored around entire helicopter an has radar too the Mi-28N designed in front an behind lines and be shot at by AA an small arms an rocket garades...

 

HIND and Ka-50 are at disadvantage against the A already. I'm not sure what kind of help you expect the armor to be against a hellfire or a 30mm gun meant to cause damage to APC/IFVs.

 

but thing is that appache never saw air to air in its life an appache an KA-50 an Mi-24 an Mi-28 never really went head to head an will never really know what would we la...

Wrong. AH-64 is credited with an Air to Air kill, and Mi-24's and AH-1's have gone head to head in A2A in the Iran-Iraq war. Certain Marine AH-1 pilots in the USN are in fact speciifically trained for A2A as well.

 

there is no better its like greek myth...only way actually see air to air if america an russia went war but thing is not happen cause america not want fight Russia an china two supporting countrys as well as vietnam an north korea an india... all are old soviet buddys that still get there weapons from Russia..

 

anyway that be next 3rd world war...

You don't know what you're talking about. Air to Air has been happening in small skirmishes in Africa, if not other places.

[Yuya6104]

HIND and Ka-50 are at disadvantage against the A already. I'm not sure what kind of help you expect the armor to be against a hellfire or a 30mm gun meant to cause damage to APC/IFVs.

 

Wrong. AH-64 is credited with an Air to Air kill, and Mi-24's and AH-1's have gone head to head in A2A in the Iran-Iraq war. Certain Marine AH-1 pilots in the USN are in fact speciifically trained for A2A as well.

 

You don't know what you're talking about. Air to Air has been happening in small skirmishes in Africa, if not other places.

 

yes apache scored hind kill to iraqis that are poorly trainned an not have complex training as usa does or europe or in eastern of russia an china an japan an taiwan.. is diffeant

 

if have very skilled pilots flying hind or KA-50/52 or what ever helicopter then be diffeant ball game.. cant always expect apache win all the time somebody has to lose some time...

 

its the pilots an there skills of flying not machine with out pilots the machine is junk siting there.. so me think that apache hind kill with poorly trainned outdated machines is a unfair advanged an easy kill no challange..

[GGTharos]

yes apache scored hind kill to iraqis

 

No, it did not. It shot down a cessna or similar aircraft intruding on israeli territory.

 

that are poorly trainned an not have complex training as usa does or europe or in eastern of russia an china an japan an taiwan.. is diffeant

 

Iraqi and Iranian pilots are reasonably well-trained.

 

if have very skilled pilots flying hind or KA-50/52 or what ever helicopter then be diffeant ball game.. cant always expect apache win all the time somebody has to lose some time...

 

... okay ... and? What have you said that is new or useful? The AH-64A has sensor and weapon advantages over the Hind and Ka-50. Yes, it doesn't mean the Apache will always win, but it does have the upper hand which is what was said.

 

its the pilots an there skills of flying not machine with out pilots the machine is junk siting there.. so me think that apache hind kill with poorly trainned outdated machines is a unfair advanged an easy kill no challange..

 

In the Iran-Iraq war, the Hinds and AH-1's were flown by Iranians and Iraqis. It was quite 'fair'.

[Yuya6104]

No, it did not. It shot down a cessna or similar aircraft intruding on israeli territory.

 

 

 

Iraqi and Iranian pilots are reasonably well-trained.

 

 

 

... okay ... and? What have you said that is new or useful? The AH-64A has sensor and weapon advantages over the Hind and Ka-50. Yes, it doesn't mean the Apache will always win, but it does have the upper hand which is what was said.

 

 

 

In the Iran-Iraq war, the Hinds and AH-1's were flown by Iranians and Iraqis. It was quite 'fair'.

 

 

me have nothing more say...cause you an me never know...everything we said is full of myths an openions no facts.. quite 'fair not exist since war fought with brutality like spartan sack troy when romans sacked east north well as egypt an 300 spartan took on Prisions

nepolian sacked almost europe samurai fought eachother invaded korea 1592 an coquared part of china an Rommel had Patton an Hitler had europe for awhile Russia had it as well for while an crusades sacked the hollyland an had it for a while.. so quite fair not exist in war no such thing as rules you there to fight nothing more nothing less to the death if has to be...

 

my country been fighting for more then 5000 years so has china but japan been here longest think 100,000 B.C.

 

but have addmit is as long as heclicopters have people as pilots its pilots not machine but pilot an WSO skills in an reacaction timing and how smart with out making errors or cost them there lifes...

 

me finished talking no more say..up to you.. ^^

[Vecko]

His gear is down, did you shoot him down on landing approach? :music_whistling:

 

No...Mission was Inguri river on 51st server.If you look in ABRIS closely ,you will see that closest airfield is about 50km away.

[GGTharos]

... did you ask him why his gear was down, or is that one of those mysteries we will always have to wonder about? :D

[Vecko]

... did you ask him why his gear was down, or is that one of those mysteries we will always have to wonder about? :D

 

Hm, badly configurated joystick profile maybe? Maybe hi tried to select A2A mod?!:)

[power5]

He probably knew an ace BS pilot was about to shoot him down and prepared for a crash landing. Doesnt look like he made it. :)

[159th_Viper]

Let that be a lesson: Venture below Angels 20 for a free Clubbing :D

[Bushmanni]

I practiced Apache hunting today and after getting shot to pieces like a sitting duck for the whole day (haven't been playing for a while) I eventually managed to get hang of it again. Attached track is the third consecutive succesfull engagement featuring my Apache killing technique working as I planned it. I'm feeling quite pleased with it and decided to share if it's worth something for someone.

killingapache2.trk