Low Fidelity / FC 2024 - Bring more low fidelity jets - Suggestions

[Xhonas]

Hello there. It has become clear that ED have changed their minds about low fidelity jets, with the upcoming FC2024 module. And thats a good thing. I would like to suggest to ED to bring new low fidelity jets to the game. The ones coming to FC2024, although awesome, are already in the game in the full fidelity form. It would be nice to have new aircrafts that are not in the game yet.

For example, you could pick 3 jets to develop in a low fidelity form and sell them in packs. Name a pack "Soviet Legends", featuring a Mig21PF, Mig23MLA and a Mig-25PD and sell this pack for us for the price of a full fidelity jet ($79,90).

Or, you could also use this opportunity to bring us more variants of the same jet. Sell a F-16 Falcon pack featuring our F-16CM Blk 50 in a low fidelity form, plus a F-16C Blk 30 and a F-16A Blk 15, for example.

It has to be something that makes sense, or something historically accurate, for example, the soviet migs that flew together in many conflicts, they are historically accurate. The F-16 variants, makes sense to be sold together, as it gives you possibilities to play in earlier and modern scenarios.

Having low fidelity jets would increase the variety of aircrafts in the simulator, bringing more gameplay possibilites, more modules to buy, more releases per year. And eventually, you guys could bring these modules into the full fidelity form, the same way as you guys are doing with the MiG-29 right now.

Ideally, ED would develop the low fidelity modules and full fidelity ones at the same time, with one not directly impacting the development of the other, if that is possible.

I'm part of a community with more than 100 members and there isn't a single soul who wouldn't insta buy those packs if you guys decided to develop it. I believe that almost everyone wants to see modules like the Fc3 Eagle or Flanker turning into full fideity jets and at the same time, having lower fidelity options for other jets like the mig25, or a more modern Sukhoi, like the Su30 or even earlier variants of an existing jet like the F16, that otherwise would take too long or would be impossible to make their way into the simulator.

The Flamming Cliffs module is very popular, and i believe that the FC2024 has a lot of potential, especially if you consider adding new aircrafts. And perhaps, not limit it to aircraft only, but expand it to include helicopters too. I hope that ED consider this possibility.

 

Best Regards !

 

Edited June 13, 2024 by Xhonas

[Red_Camarada]

A pack with similar aircrafts (same model different variants or same age) being FC3-like could add a lot of content to the game, even attracting new players

Edited June 13, 2024 by Red_Camarada

[Irisz]

This is a dead idea! No one will pay for this when you can already play Su-27SM and MiG-29SMT for free in other games. There is also a J-11A that has MAWS sensors. The Su-27SM3, the Su-37, and further up to the Su-35S and even the Su-57 are being prepared.

DCS World is dead on the Red side because NATO products sell better. FC2024 is also only about saving the development of MAC and not wasting what they have done, there are enough lay people who pay for such things!

DCS World would need more flyable FC3 products, but since it is not profitable, this idea is stillborn. They are only interested in what they can do to make money. They don't even deal with existing problems because it doesn't generate direct money for them. Always buy the new product and there will be no problems, then they will treat you as a special customer!

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

The issue with more FC3 fidelity aircraft, according to numerous developers, is that they aren't that much easier to make than the full fidelity. You'll notice that the aircraft chosen for FC 2024 have already existed in DCS for quite a long time.

You still have to make the cockpit.
You still have to make the FM meet ED's standards.
You still have to give it the fit and finish they want.

You're just leaving out some avionics and systems management aspects. Sure, there are some who maintain this isn't the case, but I don't think I've seen any of those who do actually be a part of any development team.

[Tank50us]

One thing I just thought of that, an FC3 style aircraft could be a "Minimal Shippable Product" for any team working on a modern aircraft. A simpler aircraft that has some of the avionics taken out so that it's in our hands sooner. As development continues, a 'later' model of the aircraft can get be tossed in to entice people to buy the 'upgrade'. Similar with the A-10A and A-10C and CII.

Obviously, this won't work with multi-crew aircraft, but if a team wanted to add an aircraft like... for example... the F-2A "Viper Zero", the initial release, could be of FC3 level fidelity, but the multi-crew F-2B could be added later, and made available.

null 

Just some food for thought

[Xhonas]

7 hours ago, Irisz said:

This is a dead idea! No one will pay for this when you can already play Su-27SM and MiG-29SMT for free in other games. There is also a J-11A that has MAWS sensors. The Su-27SM3, the Su-37, and further up to the Su-35S and even the Su-57 are being prepared.

DCS World is dead on the Red side because NATO products sell better. FC2024 is also only about saving the development of MAC and not wasting what they have done, there are enough lay people who pay for such things!

I'm aware of the other games, but i'd still prefer to fly those jets in here since DCS is more of a simulator and less of a game. I believe most people would love to have more options for redfor aircrafts, especially in the lower fidelity form, since this lower the entry barrier for many players. I know a lot of people who main NATO jets and refuse to fly with Redfor aircraft because they are more complicated / have a different hotas philosophy compared to Blue aircrafts (like the Mig21 or Ka50). Having lower fidelity options would attract players like those i mentioned and would be an insta buy for players like me who enjoy redfor aircrafts. As i said in my post, i'm part of a group with more than 100 membres, and basically everyone agrees that we should have more low fidelity jets, the group is diverse, with lots of casual players, competitive / tournament players, hardcore milsimmers, i know its a small group when compared to the whole dcs community, but still, given how well FC3 sells i believe it would be profitable enough to be viable for ED to develop.

 

7 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

The issue with more FC3 fidelity aircraft, according to numerous developers, is that they aren't that much easier to make than the full fidelity. You'll notice that the aircraft chosen for FC 2024 have already existed in DCS for quite a long time.

You still have to make the cockpit.
You still have to make the FM meet ED's standards.
You still have to give it the fit and finish they want.

You're just leaving out some avionics and systems management aspects. Sure, there are some who maintain this isn't the case, but I don't think I've seen any of those who do actually be a part of any development team.

Not having to model all the systems, startup procedures and clickable cockpits would shorten a lot of development time. Making the cockpit and 3d model is the "easiest" part, as many artists have already said that those are complete long before the module is ready to be released. Also, FC3 is a very popular module, selling as well as the F-16C Viper (based on some community surveys). 

[Irisz]

8 minutes ago, Xhonas said:

Tisztában vagyok a többi játékkal, de még mindig szívesebben repülnék ide, mivel a DCS inkább szimulátor és kevésbé játék. Úgy gondolom, hogy a legtöbb ember szeretne több lehetőséget kínálni a redfor repülőgépekhez, különösen az alacsonyabb hűségű formában, mivel ez sok játékos számára csökkenti a belépési korlátot. Sok embert ismerek, akik NATO-repülőgépeket használnak, és nem hajlandók Redfor repülőgépekkel repülni, mert azok bonyolultabbak / más hotas-filozófiával rendelkeznek, mint a Blue repülőgépek (mint például a Mig21 vagy a Ka50). Az alacsonyabb hűség opciók vonzzák az olyan játékosokat, mint akiket említettem, és azonnali vásárlás lenne a hozzám hasonló játékosok számára, akik szeretik a redfor repülőgépeket. Ahogy a bejegyzésemben is mondtam, egy több mint 100 tagot számláló csoport tagja vagyok, és alapvetően mindenki egyetért azzal, hogy több low-fidelity jet-re van szükségünk, a csoport sokszínű, sok alkalmi játékossal, versenyző/versenyjátékosokkal, hardcore játékosokkal. milsimmers, tudom, hogy az egész dcs közösséghez képest ez egy kis csoport, de mégis, tekintettel arra, hogy az FC3 milyen jól fogy, úgy gondolom, hogy elég jövedelmező lenne ahhoz, hogy életképes legyen az ED fejlesztése számára.

 

Ha nem kellene minden rendszert, indítási eljárást és kattintható pilótafülkét modellezni, az jelentősen lerövidítené a fejlesztési időt. A pilótafülke és a 3D-s modell elkészítése a "legegyszerűbb" rész, mivel sok művész már azt mondta, hogy ezek jóval azelőtt elkészültek, hogy a modul készen állna a megjelenésre. Ezenkívül az FC3 egy nagyon népszerű modul, az F-16C Viper mellett árulják (néhány közösségi felmérés alapján). 

The first person who understood the 1st post! The J-11A cannot be implemented even at FC3 level because it is a military secret! Since FC2024 is coming soon and the one I recommended would not even require 1 day of work from ED, in return no one would write about such a problem on the forum for 10 years!

Just read "show secret military documents" and nothing will happen! Because everyone has to present documents if they want something that is impossible!

I didn't ask for anything that wasn't impossible! Anyone who plays on online PvP servers feels the misery I'm talking about! Those who are not the maximum can think about it, but they don't feel it, so they don't feel the weight of what I'm talking about.

I'm not asking for myself, but on behalf of the entire Flanker fan community, because we experience the agony every day when we come here and play with DCS World.

I didn't ask for any classified military secrets, just to make the game more enjoyable and more people to give their money to ED!

Modifying a radar and installing 2 missiles on an airplane, I bet it takes no more than 1 hour of work, and it will solve a lot of problems for 10 years!

Edited June 14, 2024 by Irisz

[Irisz]

17 minutes ago, Xhonas said:

I'm aware of the other games, but i'd still prefer to fly those jets in here since DCS is more of a simulator and less of a game. I believe most people would love to have more options for redfor aircrafts, especially in the lower fidelity form, since this lower the entry barrier for many players. I know a lot of people who main NATO jets and refuse to fly with Redfor aircraft because they are more complicated / have a different hotas philosophy compared to Blue aircrafts (like the Mig21 or Ka50). Having lower fidelity options would attract players like those i mentioned and would be an insta buy for players like me who enjoy redfor aircrafts. As i said in my post, i'm part of a group with more than 100 membres, and basically everyone agrees that we should have more low fidelity jets, the group is diverse, with lots of casual players, competitive / tournament players, hardcore milsimmers, i know its a small group when compared to the whole dcs community, but still, given how well FC3 sells i believe it would be profitable enough to be viable for ED to develop.

 

 

ED do you see this? I'm talking about this! This proposal will make you a lot of money! The current FC3 product is not attractive! Look at what this wonderful person wrote about how many people could come here to the DCS world and you are blocking all of this!

I don't lose much if I delete my account, in fact I do it because my health is already damaged by waiting 6 years and not getting anything. Meanwhile, I bought FC3 product twice and Su-27 product once to get J-11A, which currently has nothing to do with the real thing!

My proposal requires little work, it doesn't break any secrets, but it will attract a lot of people to DCS World!

You said it yourself that it is your most successful product! You could be even more successful!

I may be stupid and discredit myself, but it's worth it to me because I really like the Flanker!

Show ED how much you love your community!

I fight for what I love!

Apologies to those who are bothered by this!

Edited June 14, 2024 by Irisz

[Xhonas]

2 hours ago, Irisz said:

The first person who understood the 1st post! The J-11A cannot be implemented even at FC3 level because it is a military secret! Since FC2024 is coming soon and the one I recommended would not even require 1 day of work from ED, in return no one would write about such a problem on the forum for 10 years!

Just read "show secret military documents" and nothing will happen! Because everyone has to present documents if they want something that is impossible!

I didn't ask for anything that wasn't impossible! Anyone who plays on online PvP servers feels the misery I'm talking about! Those who are not the maximum can think about it, but they don't feel it, so they don't feel the weight of what I'm talking about.

I'm not asking for myself, but on behalf of the entire Flanker fan community, because we experience the agony every day when we come here and play with DCS World.

I didn't ask for any classified military secrets, just to make the game more enjoyable and more people to give their money to ED!

Modifying a radar and installing 2 missiles on an airplane, I bet it takes no more than 1 hour of work, and it will solve a lot of problems for 10 years!

 

Yeah the Flanker is a though one, tho i would love to see a Su30 making its way into the Sim. But other variants of the Mig21, the Mig23, Mig25.. those are much more likely to have available information to be developed. And as i said in my OP, would be nice to also have other variants of the same jet. Why not have a low fidelity F-16C blk 30... They could make the same thing they are doing with the MiG-29 now, make some adjustments to the systems / 3d model and use the current flight model as a baseline and tweak it to reflect a blk 30 model.. We have a FC3 15C, we could have a 15A, etc etc...  I'm not saying that "its so easy just do this and that", but i'm sure that would take a lot less time than developing from scratch a study level jet.

Edited June 14, 2024 by Xhonas

[upyr1]

My low fi wish list is whatever is impossible to do FF. For example let's take F-4G for example. I really doubt we'd get the information for a full fidelity module. However we might be able get a simplified system. Then if there isn't enough information for the F-84 a simplified version might work 

Edited June 14, 2024 by upyr1

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

8 hours ago, Xhonas said:

 

 

Not having to model all the systems, startup procedures and clickable cockpits would shorten a lot of development time. Making the cockpit and 3d model is the "easiest" part, as many artists have already said that those are complete long before the module is ready to be released. Also, FC3 is a very popular module, selling as well as the F-16C Viper (based on some community surveys). 

It would lesson the work, but there's still a lot of work. A lot. So much so that it calls into question profitability. This is what we are told from the actual developers, from ED to HB. That's just how it is.

Also, community surveys aren't terribly reliable and don't provide a good snapshot of that.

[bies]

• Making FC3 standard aircraft out of already existing full fidelity module is easy, just delete some systems and simplyfy others. Like FC 2024 did.
• Making a new FC3 standard aircraft from scratch is absolutely NOT profitable: it still needs high fidelity flight model, high quality cockpit, external model, animations, weapons models, interaction with the whole enviroment - just saving time on made up sipmlified avionics - and selling it for a small fraction of full fidelity module...

If a developer has already done the tedious work of modeling the flight model, cockpit, external features, weapons, interactions, etc., it would be far more profitable to finish the full fidelity avionics and sell it for some 400% more.

Plus FC3 means simplified (F-15C, Su-27S, A-10A, Su-25 etc.) - not unrealistic / fictional / made up (Rafale, F-22, MiG-29SMK, Su-27SM2, Gripen etc). That's why FC3 didn't bring classified aircrafts with completely made up guestimated avionics.

Classified unrealistic aircraft with classified fictional systems = MOD.

Edited June 17, 2024 by bies

[cfrag]

22 hours ago, Irisz said:

I don't lose much if I delete my account, in fact I do it because my health is already damaged by waiting 6 years and not getting anything.

I think you are far too committed to DCS for your own good, you maybe take this game too serious. Perhaps taking (another) break from DCS may help you. ED do their stuff not to spite you or me. They do what they do to make money, and their reasoning so far has proven to be successful enough to justify their actions.

22 hours ago, Irisz said:

My proposal requires little work, it doesn't break any secrets, but it will attract a lot of people to DCS World!

Perhaps. In the end, it's ED's decision, it's their money that they invest in their company, and they will be accountable to their investors. Risking your health over this isn't worth it. 

I recommend that you let it go and enjoy life a bit more.

 

Edited June 15, 2024 by cfrag

[Xhonas]

On 6/15/2024 at 8:43 AM, bies said:

• Making FC3 standard aircraft out of already existing full fidelity module is easy, just delete some systems and simplyfy others. Like FC 2024 did.
• Making a new FC3 standard aircraft from scratch is absolutely NOT profitable: it still needs high fidelity flight model, high quality cockpit, external model, animations, weapons models, interaction with the whole enviroment - just saving time on made up sipmlified avionics - and selling it for a small fraction of full fidelity module...

If a developer already made such a tedious work modeling FM, cockpit, external, weapons, interactions etc. - it's whole lot more profitable to finish full fidelity avionics and sell it for 400% bigger revenue.

Plus FC3 means simplified (F-15C, Su-27S, A-10A, Su-25 etd.) - not unrealistic / fiction / made up (Rafale, F-22, MiG-29SMK, Su-27SM2, Gripen etc). That's why FC3 didn't bring classified aircrafts with completely made up guestimated avionics.

Classified unrealistic aircraft with classified fictional systems = MOD.

 

FC3 Is probably amongst ED all time best seller modules. And i disagree that it wouldn't be profitable. Having simplified avionics means that the development time would be shorter, so they can develop more planes, sell them in a pack for 79,90. Some jets are highly anticipated by the community, and given the popularity of FC3, i believe that low fidelity jets have the potential to be very profitable. 

And i agree that the point of fc3 is not to bring classified jets, i'd be happy to have more early cold war jets and other variants of existing jets, like in said in previous responses, Mig-25, Mig-23, F-15A, F-16A, since developing those jets in the full fidelity form wouldn't be viable.

Edited June 17, 2024 by Xhonas

[bies]

9 minutes ago, Xhonas said:

And i agree that the point of fc3 is not to bring classified jets, i'd be happy to have more early cold war jets and other variants of existing jets, like in said in previous responses, Mig-25, Mig-23, F-15A, F-16A, since developing those jets in the full fidelity form wouldn't be viable.

True, though i thinkt they will be profitable as full fidelity modules. MiG-23 is already being developed.

[Xhonas]

8 minutes ago, bies said:

True, though i thinkt they will be profitable as full fidelity modules. MiG-23 is already being developed.

No doubt they would be profitable as full fidelity moduels. As i said in my OP, ideally those jets would be first develop in the low fidelity form, sold in packs, and eventually developed into full fidelity jets. Like the Mig-29, for example.

[too-cool]

How many years between low fidelity form, sold in packs, and eventually developed into full fidelity jets?  TC

[Xhonas]

5 minutes ago, too-cool said:

How many years between low fidelity form, sold in packs, and eventually developed into full fidelity jets?  TC

Many years probably. The point is, lets say that they choose to develop 3 full fidelity aircrafts. Development would take about 5 to 6+ years (based on previous releases, like the F18, F16 and Mi-24). I'm pretty sure that the low fidelity form would take a lot less time. These aircrafts could be on the game sooner for people enjoy, and after that, they can focus on bringing those aircrafts to full fidelity status.

[tflash]

I still fly FC3 and Full-fidelity modules interchangeably, often in the same session. I can enjoy both. I'm often too lazy to do a cold start with the full modules, but do want to do a proper landing each time. I think what I would like most is even better atmospheric modelling (which has improved substantially over time), regardless of the module modelling. And of course the flight model. 

I bought almost everything from ED, so they shouldn't worry too much what they choose to prioritise! 

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, Xhonas said:

Many years probably. The point is, lets say that they choose to develop 3 full fidelity aircrafts. Development would take about 5 to 6+ years (based on previous releases, like the F18, F16 and Mi-24). I'm pretty sure that the low fidelity form would take a lot less time. These aircrafts could be on the game sooner for people enjoy, and after that, they can focus on bringing those aircrafts to full fidelity status.

Early development probably looks the same for FC and FF. They need to do research, collect sources, etc. FC is simplified, but it's still a simulation that requires information on the real aircraft, especially as the FC standard has increased over the years. The original FC planes with copy and pasted systems that were extremely generic were easier to make than what FC has become now. I'd assume ED wouldn't want to backtrack, so FC module development will probably still be involved. The simplification of the controls also isn't free, they need to be developed separately from the FF controls and that's means less sharing of code between FC and FF. My guess is that the biggest difference would be a shorter EA phase for FC planes.

[Xhonas]

2 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Early development probably looks the same for FC and FF. They need to do research, collect sources, etc. FC is simplified, but it's still a simulation that requires information on the real aircraft, especially as the FC standard has increased over the years. The original FC planes with copy and pasted systems that were extremely generic were easier to make than what FC has become now. I'd assume ED wouldn't want to backtrack, so FC module development will probably still be involved. The simplification of the controls also isn't free, they need to be developed separately from the FF controls and that's means less sharing of code between FC and FF. My guess is that the biggest difference would be a shorter EA phase for FC planes.

True, i believe in a very short EA or perhaps no EA at all. However, i still think that the development time would be shorter since they wouldn't have to worry to implement all the switches, circuits, cold start procedures, all the mfd subpages (for modern jets), complex simulation of INS systems (like they have done for the F16C now) and everything else that makes FF jets study level. 

[rob10]

2 hours ago, Xhonas said:

True, i believe in a very short EA or perhaps no EA at all. However, i still think that the development time would be shorter since they wouldn't have to worry to implement all the switches, circuits, cold start procedures, all the mfd subpages (for modern jets), complex simulation of INS systems (like they have done for the F16C now) and everything else that makes FF jets study level. 

ED have stated in the forums that there is much less difference in development time for FC and FF aircraft than most people think.

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, Xhonas said:

Having simplified avionics means that the development time would be shorter, so they can develop more planes,

Except that isn't really true. Avionics are not the most time consuming aspect of module development, and much of this work can be done in parallel with others. Stuff that happens in the clickable cockpit is simply not worth getting rid of.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

7 hours ago, rob10 said:

ED have stated in the forums that there is much less difference in development time for FC and FF aircraft than most people think.

You can repeat this until the cows come home, but it always just gets ignored.

[draconus]

On 6/13/2024 at 8:08 PM, Xhonas said:

It has become clear that ED have changed their minds about low fidelity jets, with the upcoming FC2024 module.

They also said there are no plans for more FC line aircraft. They probably used some work already done for the MAC project to make FC2024 and these are still modules already developed years ago. Nothing new was done here.