Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Cab]

1 hour ago, Mr_sukebe said:

none so far, though I’ve not flown for my than 90 mins at a time, and those have been fairly relaxed flights, not fighting with the controls

 

4 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I cannot tell as so far, I do not use it continuously for over 30 minutes. Nor stress test it. So far so good.

Thanks. No news is good news, I guess.

But are there no dedicated dogfighters or Cold Warriors here?! 

[Scott-S6]

6 hours ago, trev5150 said:

That would make sense if the product they're selling was the software, but it isn't. Your analogy doesn't work. Their mods to the open source code can be proprietary IP. If I write a Cliff's Notes to your example library book and sell it in a student bookstore, that' not stealing and reselling the book. It's me writing a book about a book. Sorry, Shag,none of this holds up in my court of common sense. Additionally, it's mods to open source code for the purposes of making hardware product work.

This is the same kind of noise that got shot down in court as the lawsuit against Ed Sheeran for writing a song similar to Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get It On", basically, the money grubbing estate lawyers for Marvin's family trying to copyright a set of chord progression that's pretty much universal, so that they can sue everyone in perpetuity forever. It's the same as patent trolling It doesn't hold up and it's a waste of everyone's time, including yours and mine. The only people who are gonna care are the wild-eyed feverish fanatics on this forum. We as a flight sim community need to knock it off for the sake of the hobby otherwise that thing that makes this community so toxic are going to limit it forever. You also spelled "donated" incorrectly. Cheers!

 

 

The only toxic thing here is Moza's code theft and it is actively harmful to the community because it discourages people from producing things like this and making them freely available. It will cost Moza nothing to comply with the GPL - it will cost them far more to eliminate the code they've used which will have saved them a LOT of development cost.

You might want to go do some reading on GPL because it's clear that you don't understand it at all.

Edited November 9, 2024 by Scott-S6

[NAM]

I am sick and tired of increasing toxiciy in this forum.

I dont care of the legal fight between rasbam vs ed nor rhino vs moza.

No more visit this forum from me.

 

 

[Rifter]

1 hour ago, Cab said:

But are there no dedicated dogfighters or Cold Warriors here?! 

With 'dedicated dogfighters' or 'Cold Warriors' you probably mean competitive game play?

At the moment the only FFB stick with reasonably realistic force levels is the FFBeast. You can create the 20 pound per G  gradient of a Cessna 172 with that (yes, you've read right, a CESSNA ONE SEVEN TWO!). So flying aerobatics in that 'monster' of an aircraft in a sim will demand at least around 40 pounds stick force when entering a loop.

I would love to meet a GA simmer doing that and I would even be more keen to meet a DCS simmer who is doing dogfighting with that force level in a competitive game play. Someone doing that will probably lose every fight due to massive self-handicapping against any opponent using a conventional flight stick base.

Of course you can heat up the MOZA base through excessive high-g maneuvers with maximum adjusted force on the pitch axis in a 5 or 6 minutes lasting rate fight. But despite the significantly lower forces compared to the FFBeast: Is that permanent maximum force level really desirable in competitive gaming? But than again, there are sim racers doing their regular upper arm work out on their 25Nm FFB wheels...world is full of crazy people.

Edited November 9, 2024 by Rifter

[Hammer1-1]

3 hours ago, NAM said:

I am sick and tired of increasing toxiciy in this forum.

I dont care of the legal fight between rasbam vs ed nor rhino vs moza.

No more visit this forum from me.

 

 

thats pretty much the gist of the entirety of the combat flight sim community. quite frankly though, the Moza/Walmis discussion is really a worthy thought considering that chinese companies have this annoying habit of ripping off proprietary rights left and right throughout the world, and its hit home here. That also goes for Winwing stealing stuff from VKB and incorporating their designs into their own sticks and it really should be discussed to let everyone know and make informed choices when it comes to purchasing things. I agree the community can be toxic, but a more worthwhile discussion there really isnt.

Edited November 10, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Cab]

2 hours ago, Rifter said:

With 'dedicated dogfighters' or 'Cold Warriors' you probably mean competitive game play?

I mean people who spend a lot of time in extended sessions on one the dogfight servers, or on Cold War servers where there is a lot of WVR maneuvering. If the Moza FFB does well under those conditions, I’m thinking it’s probably good enough. 

[Cab]

13 hours ago, Rifter said:

Of course you can heat up the MOZA base through excessive high-g maneuvers with maximum adjusted force on the pitch axis in a 5 or 6 minutes lasting rate fight.

You’ve done this? Or know someone who has?

[Rifter]

1 hour ago, Cab said:

You’ve done this? Or know someone who has?

Repeated 5 minutes rate fight sessions with short interruptions with the F-16 setting (simulated force sensitive stick and therefore maxed out forces) does not create enough heat up effects to reach the thermal limits for force reduction on my side. You need prolonged periods of playtime to continuously heat up the whole system.

First thing which warms up is the base plate because the pitch axis motor is mounted there. The roll axis motor is surrounded by air (therefore heat isolated) and will probably be the one to face overheating first. Then again the roll axis should be set to around one half of the force level of the pitch axis anyway if realism is the goal.

Perhaps Hiob can show us a typical usage of his Rhino in which he reaches the temperature limits so we can use this as a good reference to replicate it on the Moza since it was him  who so emphatically (and correctly) pointed out the thermal challenges of the underlying technical concept.

Edited November 10, 2024 by Rifter
typo

[Cab]

57 minutes ago, Rifter said:

Repeated 5 minutes rate fight sessions with short interruptions with the F-16 setting (simulated force sensitive stick and therefore maxed out forces) does not create enough heat up effects to reach the thermal limits for force reduction on my side. You need prolonged periods of playtime to continuously heat up the whole system.

First thing which warms up is the base plate because the pitch axis motor is mounted there. The roll axis motor is surrounded by air (therefore heat isolated) and will probably be the one to face overheating first. Then again the roll axis should be set to around one half of the force level of the pitch axis anyway if realism is the goal.

Perhaps Hiob can show us a typical usage of his Rhino in which he reaches the temperature limits so we can use this as a good reference to replicate it on the Moza since it was him  who so emphatically (and correctly) pointed out the thermal challenges of the underlying technical concept.

 

Thanks

[Hiob]

7 hours ago, Rifter said:

Repeated 5 minutes rate fight sessions with short interruptions with the F-16 setting (simulated force sensitive stick and therefore maxed out forces) does not create enough heat up effects to reach the thermal limits for force reduction on my side. You need prolonged periods of playtime to continuously heat up the whole system.

First thing which warms up is the base plate because the pitch axis motor is mounted there. The roll axis motor is surrounded by air (therefore heat isolated) and will probably be the one to face overheating first. Then again the roll axis should be set to around one half of the force level of the pitch axis anyway if realism is the goal.

Perhaps Hiob can show us a typical usage of his Rhino in which he reaches the temperature limits so we can use this as a good reference to replicate it on the Moza since it was him  who so emphatically (and correctly) pointed out the thermal challenges of the underlying technical concept.

 

Simply use an aircraft (like the F-16) that can hold high Gs for a prolonged time and continuously fly two circles. I mean the physics is pretty simple. Make the stick apply maximum amps continuously and see how fast it heats up. Since the max torque is supposed to be the same, the amp should be comparable too between the sticks.

Note that the temperature reported (most likely) is that of the motor driver, not of the actual coils or magnets. As long as the thermal mass of the motor is not saturated, they will work as a heat sink in the rhino. So it cools down rather quickly after a dogfight. You only get into critical thermal regimes when you do that over and over again until all the thermal mass/heatsink of the motors is saturated and can’t be cooled down efficiently anymore. I only managed to do that by deliberately trying to find the limits.

I assume the Moza will behave similarly. If the case as a heatsink is more or less effective than actual ventilation….. dunno. Kind of doubt it. Well at least they connected the more loaded motor to the case.

Edited November 10, 2024 by Hiob

[Hiob]

Btw. does the Moza report temps in the first place?

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I may be wrong, but I do not see any.

[Mr_sukebe]

Just been out for a 90 min spin in an F18.  Again, not a high intensity flight.  The case of the AB9 is stone cold.

[Panzerlang]

Heat shut-down (or force-throttling caused by heat) is why I stopped using my Brunner FFB. Less than a minute of sustained full-rate turning in a dogfight and it was like the elevator cables had been suddenly severed. I hope the Moza does way better than that (mine is on order).

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, Panzerlang said:

Heat shut-down (or force-throttling caused by heat) is why I stopped using my Brunner FFB. Less than a minute of sustained full-rate turning in a dogfight and it was like the elevator cables had been suddenly severed. I hope the Moza does way better than that (mine is on order).

I think, from the existing reports, it is save to say it will do better than the Brunner. We just don’t know yet how much better (and how exactly it compares to the Rhino). Unfortunately most unbiased people most likely won’t buy two units just for the fun of fueling forum discussions  

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

So, buying both is biased? I don't see the logic here...

I know one Spanish-speaking YouTuber has both, you can ask the guy.

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

So, buying both is biased? I don't see the logic here...

I know one Spanish-speaking YouTuber has both, you can ask the guy.

That’s not what I said.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

9 hours ago, Hiob said:

most unbiased people most likely won’t buy two units

Not (biased people) == Not (buy 2 units) => biased people == buy 2 units.

Humm, never-mind...

Edited November 11, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Not (biased people) == Not (buy 2 units) => biased people == buy 2 units.

Humm, never-mind...

 

First of all, your logic game is weak. Making a statement about a group doesn't necessarily imply a statement about a different or opposite group.
Apart from that you conveniently left out the relativisations I made, like "most" and "unlikely".
The judgement that most unbiased people most likely won't buy more than one expensive FFB-Joystick simply stems from the reasonable assumption that in general most people probably won't buy two different ones (at the same time.)

The term "unbiased" was simply put in to emphasise that I don't care about the chills that got free review samples and want to boost their click rates on youtube.

Seriously, how is that hard to understand?

[Panzerlang]

54 minutes ago, Hiob said:

First of all, your logic game is weak. Making a statement about a group doesn't necessarily imply a statement about a different or opposite group.
Apart from that you conveniently left out the relativisations I made, like "most" and "unlikely".
The judgement that most unbiased people most likely won't buy more than one expensive FFB-Joystick simply stems from the reasonable assumption that in general most people probably won't buy two different ones (at the same time.)

The term "unbiased" was simply put in to emphasise that I don't care about the chills that got free review samples and want to boost their click rates on youtube.

Seriously, how is that hard to understand?

Yep. Every YT reviewer who ever said "They freebied me this but they have no say on what I say but their product is genuinely the best on the planet (until I get a different free one) and pleez can haz morez".

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

Seriously, how is that hard to understand?

No problem. May be you can put up YT people instead of ordinary one.

[Rifter]

19 hours ago, Hiob said:

Simply use an aircraft (like the F-16) that can hold high Gs for a prolonged time and continuously fly two circles. I mean the physics is pretty simple. Make the stick apply maximum amps continuously and see how fast it heats up. Since the max torque is supposed to be the same, the amp should be comparable too between the sticks.

This is what I did in my testing. But I have to admit honestly that I don't have the nerve to spend an hour circling the F-16 around just to determine the temperature rise.

At the moment there is no possibility to readout temperatures for the Moza base. Also temperature limits within the settings menu are related to the case temperature (upper limit is 40° Celsius).

My conclusion until now:
Single player use cases (small self build scenarios, campaigns, training missions, etc.) will most probably not be able to bring the Moza base to a critical temperature level, since players will always have a mixture of normal flight operations and selectively combat flying with high G forces.

Highly competitive multi player scenarios need prolonged sessions with practically non-stop excessive high G dogfight manoeuvres to heat up the base.

I took a screenshot from a Youtube video of the opened base and I am not even sure, if the pitch axis motor is attached to the base plate in a way that it can fully utilise the aluminum material as heatsink. But my scientific ultra-objective fingertip test tells me, that at least some heat transfer is taking place...

[jrock5613]

On 11/1/2024 at 12:33 PM, trev5150 said:

It has everything to do with patents and IP and GLPv3 licenses. GLPv3, in this instance, as Walmis explains, requires the base code being used to remain proprietary, which they seem to have done, or tried to do. Ripping out code from a decompiled executable (which itself is probably illegal under EULA TOS) does not meet the burden of proof that an infraction has occured. That lawsuit would go nowhere, and it would take years to go nowhere.

 

You people are not lawyers. Or you're all armchair mom's basement lawyers. This and the RAZBAM thing and the reaction of people are what make the flight sim community toxic af.

 

This is toxic!!

On 11/1/2024 at 1:06 PM, trev5150 said:

How so? Use big words. Put me in my place. Show me where I’m wrong. Take us down the path for the education and enlightenment of all to see and hear. And tell us where you got your law degree from while you’re at it. 

 

Toxic 2

[Aapje]

@Rifter

Even fairly limited contact between the motors and the outer shell can result in a decent amount of heat transfer if the main issue is a relatively slow build-up of heat.

This is not a CPU or GPU where immense amounts of heat get output for potentially very long consecutive periods, and the CPU and GPU chips have little mass of their own, so they very quickly get overwhelmed with heat if not cooled in a very efficient way. These motors have way more mass than a chip and thus can buffer way more heat.

[Kutscha]

Somebody using a Virpil Grip or the Moza MH16on the Moza Base?

My slewing chinese hat is not working in the axis, just the center button. Moza says, this feature is not supported on the Virpil Stick, not mentioned on the website.

 

I am wondering now if someone found a solution and if using the MH16 Grip, if here all functions are working properly including slewing axis hats

 

THX